9er fan here; I just don't want the refs to decide the game

BlueTalon

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Aros":3jobrj2l said:
The last thing any of us wants is a win deep with controversy due to poor officiating.
Nope. The last thing any of us want is a loss deep with controversy due to poor officiating.

A controversial win might be the second to last thing.


VivaEfrenHerrera":3jobrj2l said:
Hehe, actually, the last thing I want is a *loss* deep with controversy. I want true home field advantage with all its accustomed perks and advantages. If that means I have to suffer through a game with a 60/40 advantage on calls and no-calls, I'm more than happy to enjoy it.
Dang, beat me to it.
 

mikeak

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A Seahawks win will be turned controversial by Harbaugh - that is known

If you disagree ask Ravens

Just saw that Plyka made the same point but used a lot more fancy words to do so :)
 

minormillikin

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After the Seahawks win, I guarantee 9ers fans will complain about officiating, and the Seahawks will be called cheaters. Even if it's a blowout with no apparent blown calls, the 9er fans will blame the loss on refs letting Seattle DBs get away with murder.
 

Shock2k

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I'm looking for a definitive win either way. No bad calls, no strange bounces. I want one team to show who is the cream of the NFC West. With all deference to the 49ers being "in our house." No debates. Go Hawks!
 

Diezel Dawg

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I think Niners fans will blame a loss on not having Home field advantage
 

Bamzi58

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Harbough does not agree with you. Unlike most people, I actually like Harbaugh. Perhaps not as a person, although i wouldn't know since I don't know the man. He is ackward from what I've seen, but so are a lot of people. The reason I like him is because he is smart when it comes to football. He doesn't just plan to beat you on the field, he plans to beat you everywhere with any means necessary.

An important overall strategy from Harbaugh has been his constant whining/crying regarding Seattle and their defense. That the Hawks D does not dominate based on play but rather based on cheating. They hold, they foul, they are the worst of the worst --according to Harbaugh. I've watched the Seahawks defense, and I've watched a lot of other Ds. This defense does not hold or pass interfere more than other teams. They all do it to some extent. The HAwks get away with it less than other teams. That's partly due to Harbaugh.

He has created a meme, a storyline. He has done it on purpose. The storyline has caught on over the last year. Despite the fact that there is no evidence to back it up! If you say something long enough, people will just accept it as truth --as long as it cannot be undeniably denied, and even in the case that it can be definitely disproven, it's not a guarantee that the people wont still accept it as truth.

The storyline was created, this meme was pushed by everyone and anyone --once the media caught on it blazed on fire. Now even Seahawk fans accept it as biblical truth. They don't question it, they accept it. Radio personalities, ESPN "analysts," everyone basically accepts the non-fact that the Seahawk defense holds over and over and over, and the refs just dont call them all.

This is bound to seep into the minds of the refs. They will be looking for it. On almost any play, you can see something which COULD be called. It's not black or white. And when you have an overriding meme in play, the refs subconscious is bound to let it affect them.

Harbaugh 1
Pete 0

Before the game is even played. And that's why I like Harbaugh.

:sarcasm_on: And you say Seahawks cheat. Sheesh. It reminds me of something a bully would do to get an advantage. Win by skill not by stupid a$$ tricks. :sarcasm_off:
 

irocdave

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All bad history aside, a well called game is what everyone wants. No drama from the refs. No major missed calls or incorrect calls. We don't watch these games and invest our time and money to watch refs (and NFL?) decide games. If it is a penalty in the first minute, it's a penalty in the 4th quarter. The refs need to be consistent.

I say this with the understanding that the Hawks are going to be in a tight, hard fought game and watching it will be tough as a fan. They have a legit chance of being beaten by a much hated division rival and we all know the spoils go to the victor. It would be devastating as a Hawk fan. It would be even worse if it came down to a bad call or missed call. Let the chips fall where they may and call it like it is. I can deal with that. Losing a game like this because of bad calls would be crushing and would really make me question the NFL. Took a couple of years to get the Hawks SB appearance out of my system, not sure if I could do it again.
 

Popeyejones

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Chrome_Seahawk":7rzgeb89 said:
Honest question - I know we won the game last year so it didn't matter, but how would you feel if a call like the one below by Kam Chancellor on Vernon Davis was flagged (as it was in that game):

VernonDavisCrushed_original.gif


Obviously I mean this call either way, whether it be on your team or our team - I just think that most 49ers fans likely feel that Kam deserved to be flagged on the play. Meanwhile, most of us here feel bad that Vernon got a concussion on that play, but when looking at how and where Kam hit Davis, we feel it should not have been flagged.


It's a good question. FWIW in my experience after seeing the replays every 9er fan I know agrees with Hawks fans that it shouldn't have been flagged. This is one of three problems IMO with discussions of NFL officiating.

Problem #1 (the long one, as it requires the actual rule book as it applies here): Fans complain about the officiating all the time, but most of us most of the time (myself included) don't know the actual rule book. The Kam hit is a great example of this phenomon. Almost all fans seem to believe that the unnecessary roughness (UR) call when applied to a defenseless receiver (DR) is about helmet to helmet contact (e.g. the first UR call on the Saints against Percy Harvin). That's not the actual rule though, and is only one of the clauses for the UR call for DR penalties.

It's contained in Rule 12, Section 2, Article 7 (pp. 67-68 in the rule book here: https://www.nfl.info/download/2012Media ... 20Book.pdf)

The first part of the application is the DR clause of "Defenseless Posture", which in the .gif above unarguably describes Davis, and is contained in Article 7 A(2):

A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or
has not clearly become a runner. If the receiver/runner is capable of avoiding or warding off the impending
contact of an opponent, he is no longer a defenseless player

The second part is one of the clauses that fans don't seem to know about (including 9ers fans), and is in the companion "Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture" section, the operative clarification that inarguably describes Kam being contained in Article 7 B(2):

Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/‖hairline‖ parts of the helmet
against any part of the defenseless player’s body

It's completely cut and dry. Even 9ers fans who have every incentive to want it to be a penalty think it isn't though, because they don't know that this clause about the hairline of the helmet hitting any part of the defenseless receivers body (read: leading with the helmet into Vernon's shoulder while he is defenseless) is, according the rule book, a correct application of the UR call. It means that even if there hadn't been helmet to helmet contact on the Harvin hit and if the helmet hit his shoulder it would have correctly been a UR call.

Problem #2: Another problem is that as a matter of course the NFL doesn't explain itself and the application of rules. Fans basically are left to assume that if a UR fine is rescinded the NFL is acknowledging that the call was a bad one. That's simply not true, though.

Oddly, it's the exact same story with Brooks' hit on Drew Brees, which 9ers fans think was an atrocious call, not least of which because all other things all season being equal the 9ers would have won the division if that call wasn't made. Brooks' fine, like Kam's fine, was rescinded, causing both fanbases to think they have "proof" that the calls were bad. It's because in the case of Kam fans haven't taken the time to actually read Article 7 A(2) and B(2), and in the case of Brooks fans haven't taken the time to read Article 7 A(1) and B(1) (the latter of which states "Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, even if the initial contact of the defender’s helmet or facemask is lower than the passer’s neck; it's just as clear as the ruling on the Kam hit).

Essentially by not engaging in the pro forma explanation of calls, the NFL forces fans who aren't going to pour through the rule book to misuse fines being levied or rescinded as a divining rod to what "should" and "should not" have been called, which is an improper usage of that process. According to the actual rule book the call on Kam and the call on Brooks were both absolutely correct (translation: 9ers fans can end their woulda/coulda/shouldas about this hit and the division title), and the process of adjudicating fines is a completely different thing.

Problem #3: While Problem #1 is our problem as fans and Problem #2 is a problem with the administration of the NFL that has an easy solution (engage in the pro forma explanation of calls with clear reference to the rule book, perhaps on the NFL's own website between games each week), problem #3 is completely intractable:

Football is, without a doubt, by far the hardest sport to officiate. The officiating in the NFL will always be "bad" compared to other sports, as the complexity of the game doesn't allow for clean officiating in a way it does in most other sports. We need not be fatalists, it can improve, but it will always comparatively be "bad."


Sorry for the long post.
 
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