All Time - Career Passer Rating

[Anthony!]

I think you're reading way too much into my post and becoming too defensive over something that's not that big of a deal. The fact that Wilson is currently ranked 2nd all time in this stat is very commendable but obviously this stat doesn't tell the whole story for any QB. As I pointed out, I am taking nothing away from what Wilson has accomplished in his career.

QB ratings can be deceptive and if you introduced someone to football who knew nothing about the game and you show them these rankings they would become quite confused when you try to point out that no, Matt Schaub and David Garrard were not actually more effective than Elway or Staubach. The rating favors many QBs who perform in high percentage passing systems. And comparing eras becomes useless with this stat.

Yeah, I might be too defensive about it. I don't think so but it's possible. I'm a little irritated because if you look at some of those same quarterbacks that you mention (Schaub for example) and look at how they rank in some of the other categories provided above, they're not even close.

My OP was a nod to Wilson's accomplishment. Your response was an attempt to discredit the accomplishment (no matter the importance or accuracy of the stat) from my point of view.

For what it is worth I took it the same way as you , an attempt to discredit or marginalize the accomplishment.

 

[JimmyG]

QB ratings can be deceptive and if you introduced someone to football who knew nothing about the game and you show them these rankings they would become quite confused when you try to point out that no, Matt Schaub and David Garrard were not actually more effective than Elway or Staubach. The rating favors many QBs who perform in high percentage passing systems. And comparing eras becomes useless with this stat.

Definitely.

Wilson has a rating of 96.7 yesterday after his tremendous game on Sunday. Guess where that ranks among NFL quarterbacks? 11th. Eleventh! A rating that high in the 70's or 80's would've lead the league in most seasons. Today, it's a relatively common number to see.

Here are the leaders in combined passer rating since the beginning of 2012:
1. Aaron Rodgers - 107.5
2. Peyton Manning - 101.8
3. Drew Brees - 99.6
4. Tony Romo- 98.4
5. Russell Wilson - 98.2
6. Ben Roethlisberger - 97.5
7. Tom Brady - 97.2

That tells you all you need to know. Second-best all-time, and yet only fifth-best among his peers during his career. Wilson has great numbers, there's no denying it. Obviously, the names surrounding him on that list are all really good. Historical comparisons are of very tenuous value though.

 

[Tical21]

Passer rating basically boils down to TD/Int ratio. It is kind of a cool list. A lot of those guys are really aggressive and can maintain a high passer rating. I think those are where you're talking about the elite of the elite.

It's an interesting question. Would we prefer Russell's rating to be a little bit lower in exchange for being a bit more aggressive in terms of the windows he is willing to throw the ball into?

 

[Russ Willstrong]

For some perspective,

here's some folks on the extended list you may not expect:

13 Chad Pennington
14 Matt Schaub
15 (tied) Daunte Culpepper
18 Jeff Garcia
22 Trent Green
24 David Garrard
25 Jay Cutler
26 Donovan McNabb
29 Joe Flacco
33 Mark Brunell
43 Matt Hasselbeck
51 Dave Krieg
65 (tied) Matt Cassell
86 John Kitna

Taking nothing away from Wilson but QB rating isn't everything:
HOF:
19 Otto Graham
36 Roger Staubach
41 Len Dawson
50 Troy Aikman
56 Warren Moon
57 Bart Starr
59 Fran Tarkenton
64 Dan Fouts
65 John Elway
78 Johnny Unitas
89 Bob Griese
138 Terry Bradshaw
163 Joe Namath

This is what I don't understand about the way that some of you post...

The quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks is 2nd on the all time leader list for passer rating and your response is "yeah but"?

Where in the OP does it say that passer rating is everything?

Are you concerned that people will mistakenly give Wilson some credit or take pleasure in knowing this? I really don't get the increasingly common reflex of minimizing or dismissing every little accomplishment or positive related to the team.

By the way, you can do the same with the passing yardage and TD list. You'd have made a better argument if you pointed out that he just became eligible for the list and being 2nd doesn't mean that he'll finish 2nd.

You make too much sense Laloosh. Reasoning isnt tolerated on this board. It's best that you succumb to reactionary posting and Wilson hating.
True career stats only apply to folks over 6 feet tall anyway. :sarcasm_off:

 

[Anthony!]

QB ratings can be deceptive and if you introduced someone to football who knew nothing about the game and you show them these rankings they would become quite confused when you try to point out that no, Matt Schaub and David Garrard were not actually more effective than Elway or Staubach. The rating favors many QBs who perform in high percentage passing systems. And comparing eras becomes useless with this stat.

Definitely.

Wilson has a rating of 96.7 yesterday after his tremendous game on Sunday. Guess where that ranks among NFL quarterbacks? 11th. Eleventh! A rating that high in the 70's or 80's would've lead the league in most seasons. Today, it's a relatively common number to see.

Here are the leaders in combined passer rating since the beginning of 2012:
1. Aaron Rodgers - 107.5
2. Peyton Manning - 101.8
3. Drew Brees - 99.6
4. Tony Romo- 98.4
5. Russell Wilson - 98.2
6. Ben Roethlisberger - 97.5
7. Tom Brady - 97.2

That tells you all you need to know. Second-best all-time, and yet only fifth-best among his peers during his career. Wilson has great numbers, there's no denying it. Obviously, the names surrounding him on that list are all really good. Historical comparisons are of very tenuous value though.

either way you look at it, it is something that should be being received positively not being trivialized. FYI other than Romo and Wilson all of those guys are HOF bound. With Romo and Wilson TBD

 

[scutterhawk]

Passer rating basically boils down to TD/Int ratio. It is kind of a cool list. A lot of those guys are really aggressive and can maintain a high passer rating. I think those are where you're talking about the elite of the elite.

It's an interesting question. Would we prefer Russell's rating to be a little bit lower in exchange for being a bit more aggressive in terms of the windows he is willing to throw the ball into?

No, he's doing exactly what Pete Carroll want's of him.....It ain't about the stats Tickle.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Where in the OP does it say that passer rating is everything?

It's part of a passive-aggressive argument in the 2nd post that implies anyone who doesn't think Wilson is performing like a franchise QB this season is wrong because passer rating says so.

How can I include the 2nd post when you are talking about the OP? Two reasons: First, I don't see where ANY poster is limited to replying to only the first post of a thread. Second, I don't see anyone claiming the OP is presenting passer rating as everything, with the possible exception of your characterization, which makes it a bit of a strawman. So if we're inviting fallacy to the discourse, then it's a two-way street.

We don't see everything the same on this board which is why we have discussions. If everyone had the same idea there'd be no point discussing it.

However, there are ways to discuss things and ways not to. I don't appreciate passive-aggressive swipes across multiple threads just because I have concerns over Wilson's performance this season-to-date any more than I appreciate strawmen.

Yes, QB rating is a stat. Yes, Wilson ranks high on it. However, it hasn't been recognised as a meaningful stat for quite some time. There have been several attempts to replace it like QBR, which is subjective, and it's easier to plug numbers into a formula even if that formula lacks key metrics like sacks and blown opportunities.

I am not championing QBR by any means, but for contrast I present WIlson's rank this year, which is 18th. By that rating system he is the 18th best QB in the league. His worst areas are sacks and penalties, which oddly enough is what I have been harping on about with him holding the ball too long, getting himself into trouble albeit with an assist from the porous OL, and either taking a sack or getting flagged for grounding.

I freely acknowledge that last game he was heaps better at getting rid of the ball quickly, and it showed in a fantastic performance with great accuracy and offensive success. It seems one way to counter a bad OL is to get rid of the ball quickly, which is something I have been on about all year long.

When I look at the season, as a whole, I see Wilson at or near where QBR sees him, which is about middle-of-the-pack, which is not, by definition, elite and does not justify him being termed a franchise QB except in a league where warm bodies at the QB position are rare enough to elevate the likes of Joe Flacco to franchise status.

 

[Rob12]

Wondering when football is going to catch up to baseball.

We have a new way to measure baseball players. A player that hits .300 might actually not be that good because batting average is a terrible stat to gauge performance. Likewise, QB rating is a garbage stat.

Don't get me wrong here. What Russ has done through nearly four years now is amazing. He's my favorite Hawk ever. Read that again... Ever. There's no NFL QB that I'd rather have right now than him. With that, QB rating is an absolute useless stat. Again, football is a long ways behind baseball in this regard. Your tradition stats mean little to the current landscape of the game. David Gerrard 24th in career passer rating... Really? Really?

When it's all said and done Russ will be one of the greats. But it has nothing to do with his QB rating.

What a useless stat. Seriously.

 

[Rob12]

Where in the OP does it say that passer rating is everything?

It's part of a passive-aggressive argument in the 2nd post that implies anyone who doesn't think Wilson is performing like a franchise QB this season is wrong because passer rating says so.

How can I include the 2nd post when you are talking about the OP? Two reasons: First, I don't see where ANY poster is limited to replying to only the first post of a thread. Second, I don't see anyone claiming the OP is presenting passer rating as everything, with the possible exception of your characterization, which makes it a bit of a strawman. So if we're inviting fallacy to the discourse, then it's a two-way street.

We don't see everything the same on this board which is why we have discussions. If everyone had the same idea there'd be no point discussing it.

However, there are ways to discuss things and ways not to. I don't appreciate passive-aggressive swipes across multiple threads just because I have concerns over Wilson's performance this season-to-date any more than I appreciate strawmen.

Yes, QB rating is a stat. Yes, Wilson ranks high on it. However, it hasn't been recognised as a meaningful stat for quite some time. There have been several attempts to replace it like QBR, which is subjective, and it's easier to plug numbers into a formula even if that formula lacks key metrics like sacks and blown opportunities.

I am not championing QBR by any means, but for contrast I present WIlson's rank this year, which is 18th. By that rating system he is the 18th best QB in the league. His worst areas are sacks and penalties, which oddly enough is what I have been harping on about with him holding the ball too long, getting himself into trouble albeit with an assist from the porous OL, and either taking a sack or getting flagged for grounding.

I freely acknowledge that last game he was heaps better at getting rid of the ball quickly, and it showed in a fantastic performance with great accuracy and offensive success. It seems one way to counter a bad OL is to get rid of the ball quickly, which is something I have been on about all year long.

When I look at the season, as a whole, I see Wilson at or near where QBR sees him, which is about middle-of-the-pack, which is not, by definition, elite and does not justify him being termed a franchise QB except in a league where warm bodies at the QB position are rare enough to elevate the likes of Joe Flacco to franchise status.

This. I don't really like QBR either, but Russ being 18th sounds about right. To me he's played like a top 20 QB. Nothing more than that.

 

[Smellyman]

For some perspective,

here's some folks on the extended list you may not expect:

13 Chad Pennington
14 Matt Schaub
15 (tied) Daunte Culpepper
18 Jeff Garcia
22 Trent Green
24 David Garrard
25 Jay Cutler
26 Donovan McNabb
29 Joe Flacco
33 Mark Brunell
43 Matt Hasselbeck
51 Dave Krieg
65 (tied) Matt Cassell
86 John Kitna

Taking nothing away from Wilson but QB rating isn't everything:
HOF:
19 Otto Graham
36 Roger Staubach
41 Len Dawson
50 Troy Aikman
56 Warren Moon
57 Bart Starr
59 Fran Tarkenton
64 Dan Fouts
65 John Elway
78 Johnny Unitas
89 Bob Griese
138 Terry Bradshaw
163 Joe Namath

"
Taking nothing away from Wilson but QB rating isn't everything:" and yet you just tried to pathetic

My point is that the qb rating is not necessarily the best tool to measure how effective a qb is. Wilson's many 4th qtr comebacks mean a lot more than his qb rating IMO. You find this "pathetic"?

True. so is Winning, Super Bowls, comeback victories, and Rushing etc. etc.

 

[rcaido]

Not tall enough & not black enough!

 

[Overseasfan]

This doesn't mean he's the 2nd best QB of all time. It does however say that he's a great QB lots of teams would love to have. I'm not giving up on Wilson untill he has a Kaepernick-like downfall and only throws INTs.

 

[Laloosh]

It's part of a passive-aggressive argument in the 2nd post that implies anyone who doesn't think Wilson is performing like a franchise QB this season is wrong because passer rating says so.

How can I include the 2nd post when you are talking about the OP? Two reasons: First, I don't see where ANY poster is limited to replying to only the first post of a thread. Second, I don't see anyone claiming the OP is presenting passer rating as everything, with the possible exception of your characterization, which makes it a bit of a strawman. So if we're inviting fallacy to the discourse, then it's a two-way street.

Taking nothing away from Wilson but QB rating isn't everything:

I'll just say this. I'm fine with people disagreeing with my post(s). Nobody expects every response to be directly to the OP and there's nothing passive about my irritation with the need for some to turn every single thread containing the words Russell and Wilson into... this.

I'm done.

 

[Seahawk772002]

QB ratings are NMF statistic

Russell is recognized for what he is and any fan wants their young quarterback to be the next Russell Wilson before they dream of the quarterback becoming Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

My wish is he becomes like Derek Jeter who made the Yankees a team who I cheered against but hard to hate.

He was there when we arrived Groundhogs Day in 2014, final score 43 to 8, we are not going back.

 

[chawx]

....
I am not championing QBR by any means, but for contrast I present WIlson's rank this year, which is 18th. By that rating system he is the 18th best QB in the league. [sic] When I look at the season, as a whole, I see Wilson at or near where QBR sees him...

I will now list 17 QBs in the NFL right now who I would rather have run this offense—not, their offense (ie. the offense that QB runs) but THIS offense, with THIS OC, and with THIS offensive line protecting them....

1) .......


....

....

..
.

Hmm.

K, nevermind. I can't get a single name. Call me a homer... but I'd like to see your list of 17 SEVENTEEN QBs who you think would be better on this team, right now. with this OC, and this O-line.

Go.

 

[sutz]

As a fan of the team and the player, I always like to see favorable press for my guy.

One critique I have, mostly of the counter argument, is that comparing QBs from different eras is dicey for me. Having watched football since the 70's, I've seen the evolution of the position. Back in the day, a "good/great" QB might have a completion percentage closer to 50% and a lower TD/INT ratio compared to the modern day and still be considered great.

Players like Unitas and Stabler were noted for their clutch ability, the number of games they won, their leadership and calmness under fire moreso than their QB rating, which was kind of a phantom stat until, say, the 90's or so. The game has evolved to where stats from many of the 'greats' of NFL history would be unnacceptable now.

Which brings me back to RW. Sure, I like the great stats and QBR, but mostly for me, like the old time players, he passes the 'eye' test. You watch him play, and more often than not he makes good things happen. I won't argue that he's the 'greatest QB of our era' but I don't need or expect him to be. He's the most successful QB in team history so far. I'll take that.

 

[Uncle Si]

QB ratings can be deceptive and if you introduced someone to football who knew nothing about the game and you show them these rankings they would become quite confused when you try to point out that no, Matt Schaub and David Garrard were not actually more effective than Elway or Staubach. The rating favors many QBs who perform in high percentage passing systems. And comparing eras becomes useless with this stat.

Definitely.

Wilson has a rating of 96.7 yesterday after his tremendous game on Sunday. Guess where that ranks among NFL quarterbacks? 11th. Eleventh! A rating that high in the 70's or 80's would've lead the league in most seasons. Today, it's a relatively common number to see.

Here are the leaders in combined passer rating since the beginning of 2012:
1. Aaron Rodgers - 107.5
2. Peyton Manning - 101.8
3. Drew Brees - 99.6
4. Tony Romo- 98.4
5. Russell Wilson - 98.2
6. Ben Roethlisberger - 97.5
7. Tom Brady - 97.2

That tells you all you need to know. Second-best all-time, and yet only fifth-best among his peers during his career. Wilson has great numbers, there's no denying it. Obviously, the names surrounding him on that list are all really good. Historical comparisons are of very tenuous value though.

either way you look at it, it is something that should be being received positively not being trivialized. FYI other than Romo and Wilson all of those guys are HOF bound. With Romo and Wilson TBD

Opening up the conversation a little to what QB Rating is and what it's an indicator of is not "trivializing" the conversation, but adding to it.

 

[ivotuk]

He's not #1?

Bevell's on Fire!

FTFY.

:stirthepot:

FIFY :mrgreen:

 

[Seymour]

Where in the OP does it say that passer rating is everything?

It's part of a passive-aggressive argument in the 2nd post that implies anyone who doesn't think Wilson is performing like a franchise QB this season is wrong because passer rating says so.

I don't believe it proves anything. I do however believe it is one of many indications that we DO have a top 10 QB. Any rating system will have flaws. For one, none of them take into account the level of talent they have at WR, or the pass protection the oline affords them.

 

[Willyeye]

This entire thread is hilarious. There really is nothing to debate. Wilson is 2nd in all time career passer rating. To say that passer rating is meaningless is also meaningless. To even consider Wilson to be the 2nd best QB of all time because of his career passer rating is insanity. I didn't see anyone say that. On the other hand, I think there might be a few people that use the disparity in passer rating from past eras to try to prove their point that Wilson is a mediocre QB. But to pretend that passer rating does not reflect the performance of any QB is ridiculous. Look, guys like Luck, Peyton, Kap and Mallett are struggling this year. It's no surprise that they are at the bottom of the passer rating ranks. And QBR bears this out also.

As a metric, passer rating for the most part does reflect how good a QB performs...it is totally objective. It does not lie...it reflects only facts. There is obviously an argument as to how one interprets this stat. I'm sure everybody here agrees that the passer rating stat from eras past does not equate to today's passer rating for a multitude of reasons. Using passer rating in today's NFL has value as a metric for individual years during a 4-5 year span.

Regarding a comparison between ESPN's QBR and the NFL's passer rating, they aren't that far off from each other regarding Wilson. In QBR, Wilson is ranked #18...in passer rating, he's ranked #11. QBR is very subjective, and it has always favored QB's that play on the east coast. This has been an issue since it's inception. It does not favor QB's that run a lot. In QBR, there is essentially no such thing as a dual-threat QB. I will say this for ESPN, they changed their formula last offseason to give a bit more value to QB rushing. Wilson was actually moved up on the QBR rankings since 2012.

So currently, Wilson is ranked as follows:
2015: NFL- #11; ESPN- #18
2014: NFL- #10; ESPN- #8
2013: NFL- #7; ESPN- #11
2012: NFL- #4; ESPN- #5

As you can see, they are not that far off. Both metrics have value for what they tell us. And most importanly, don't think that they don't reflect the reality of QB performance. The QB's in the top 10 of both these lists BELONG in the Top 10. There are no anomalies where great QB's are at the bottom of either list.

As it pertains to Russell, there's not a huge disparity given certain extenuating circumstances. In QBR, Wilson is held responsible for pretty much ALL of his O-Line woes, AKA sacks. Anyone who thinks the Hawks O-Line should be ranked #1 for pass protection in the first half of the season...well, there's a lot I could say about you, but I won't say it. There are other factors...building a chemistry with Graham...playing with an injured Lynch or playing without him...a "new" O-Line...missing Golden Tate...losing 5 of 9 games...all of these things have affected Wilson's performance this year.

But he isn't suddenly a horrible QB. He's had bad games in years past, but I think a lot of people have short or selective memories. But most importantly, I think Wilson is probably the best QB that could make this team work given what the team he has to work with. I think with Tarvaris Jackson and the same O-Line, we'd be lucky to be 2-8.