Bennett & Avril vs Clemons & Bryant

[theincrediblesok]

Bennett and Avril have been getting double teamed and held almost on every play, that's also not going to show up in stats.

 

[2_0_6]

I would take Clemons over Avril any day. .

:roll:

The Clemmons of 2010-12 yes. But this is 2014 and his best days are behind him.

 

[seahawkfreak]

Bennett and Avril have been getting double teamed and held almost on every play, that's also not going to show up in stats.

Were Clemons and Bryant double teamed? I'm sure they were but I'm guessing your point is they were not as much as Avril and Bennett. How do you know though?

 

[theincrediblesok]

Bennett and Avril have been getting double teamed and held almost on every play, that's also not going to show up in stats.

We're Clemons and Bryant double teamed? I'm sure they were but I'm guessing your point is they were not as much as Avril and Bennett. How do you know though?

The Cowboy game I really took notice of the holds after that it was clear that the refs were paying more attention to our secondary than what was going on in the trenches. There were runs by Murray that shouldn't happen if the refs had called holding on their offensive line. I have the whole season and I usually go back and watch the games to watch how our player plays and individual players. I just notice our offensive line gets holding and illegal blocking calls more than any other offensive line, just like the same way the refs are more focused on our team than what our opponents are doing.

I think this is why pete extended Avril knowing that he's still a threat because when he gets doubled team, someone else will have a hole to shoot right at the QB.

 

[Mick063]

I loved Clemmons as a player.

What do I love more?

This team shedding older players for younger players without a big drop off.

Remember how that vaunted Steelers defense slowly grew old and slow before our eyes? It was like boiled frogs. An incremental annual decrease until they were down right bad. All because they clung to the same group for way too long.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I loved Clemmons as a player.

What do I love more?

This team shedding older players for younger players without a big drop off.

Remember how that vaunted Steelers defense slowly grew old and slow before our eyes? It was like boiled frogs. An incremental annual decrease until they were down right bad. All because they clung to the same group for way too long.

They did come up with a solution though by becoming arguably the league's best offensive team. Not a solution I would have picked or really prefer but it seems to be working for them pretty well.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

I love Clemons, but you guys are crazy if you want Clemons now over Avril. We could compare last years stats too. We could re-watch super bowl and watch Avril blow up play after play (Clemons had a good super bowl too)

Avril just has more in the tank right now.

I want to clone Clemons and bring him back as a 22 year old

Now your making sense.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

I love Clemons, but you guys are crazy if you want Clemons now over Avril. We could compare last years stats too. We could re-watch super bowl and watch Avril blow up play after play (Clemons had a good super bowl too)

Avril just has more in the tank right now.

I was a bit of a worry wort with the Avril signing, and thought in Detroit he was weak against the run, and a product of an incredible interior DT group.

He wasn't. Avril is a fast ass baller.

Somehow we must be playing more to his strengths than Detroit was. The SF OL laughed at him whenever they played Detroit. He's a terror to them now. Haven't heard a peep about him from A. Davis, cause he's been making them look silly. [emoji106]

 

[HawKnPeppa]

I would take Clemons over Avril any day. .

:roll:

The Clemmons of 2010-12 yes. But this is 2014 and his best days are behind him.

Just yesterday somebody was trying to compare Clemons to Irvin. Sigh, at least we are comparing the same position this time.

 

[QuahHawk]

Clemons
2014(Jax) Tackles 34 Sacks 7 FF 3
2013 Tackles 24 Sacks 4.5 FF 1
2012 Tackles 40 Sacks 11.5 FF 3

Avril
2014 Tackles 20 Sacks 4.5 FF 1
2013 Tackles 20 Sacks 8 FF 5
2012 (Det) Tackles 35 Sacks 9.5 FF 2

Stats wise Clemons has a slight edge

Bryant
2014 (Jax) Tackles 20 Sacks 1 FF 1
2013 Tackles 30 Sacks 1.5 FF 0
2012 Tackles 24 Sacks 0 FF 0

Bennett
2014 Tackles 33 Sacks 6 FF 1
2013 Tackles 32 Sacks 8.5 FF 1
2012 (TB) Tackles 41 Sacks 9 FF 3

Stat's wise Bennett is a huge improvement over Bryant

Stats don't tell the whole story with these guys because we know how much Red Bryant meant to the defense but I have to say Bennett's versatility to excel coming off the edge and causing pressure from rushing inside is something we have been looking for since we signed Jason Jones.

I think both Avril and Bennett will be in their primes for 2015 and 2016 seasons. Clemons and Bryant are probably inthier last year and I expect to see a drop of in production pretty soon. It's not just about age but just how long they have been playing and the toll on their bodies.

 

[Hawks46]

I'd take Clemons in his prime (for us) over Avril, but it's still close.

Clemons was a consistently better pass rusher. Not looking at sacks, but at hurries and Clemons was consistently better. He was also better against the run, although Avril has gotten better this year.

Avril is faster, bigger and more explosive, but athleticism isn't always where it's at. Clemons took a while to refine his technique, and develop counter moves and a bull rush. If athleticism was the end all, be all, Irvin would've been tearing up the league the last 3 years.

Obviously right now I'd take Avril, but Clemons pre ACL was still the better player.

Bryant vs. Bennett is a big different.

Bryant was a stud against the run. He would routinely take on double teams and stone them at the line. He didn't get much QB pressure, but he could compress the pocket from the edge. I'd take his leadership over any DLman we have; that's where we miss him.

Bennett is every bit as good against the run as Bryant was, but it's different. You rarely see Bennett get blown back, even by larger OLmen, but he can get washed out by a double team. Where he excels against the run is penetration; he's so much quicker off the snap than Bryant was, that he's way more disruptive. You'll get the same production against the run, but you'll also get more negative plays out of Bennett, and he also creates more fumbles.

Bennett's biggest advantage is his versatility. If a team audibled to a pass with Bryant, you knew you weren't getting great pass rush. Audible to a pass vs. Bennett and he can slide all over the place and still create great pressure. I'd take Bennett the player hands down over Bryant ( and I loved me some Big Red).

I think for the price we have for both Avril and Bennett, we're in outstanding shape and I love both contracts. We still need to lock up Irvin, who I think can still be a great LEO for us, or be one of the best OLB's in the league. He's going to be that good, and that versatile.

 

[QuahHawk]

I'd take Clemons in his prime (for us) over Avril, but it's still close.

Clemons was a consistently better pass rusher. Not looking at sacks, but at hurries and Clemons was consistently better. He was also better against the run, although Avril has gotten better this year.

Avril is faster, bigger and more explosive, but athleticism isn't always where it's at. Clemons took a while to refine his technique, and develop counter moves and a bull rush. If athleticism was the end all, be all, Irvin would've been tearing up the league the last 3 years.

Obviously right now I'd take Avril, but Clemons pre ACL was still the better player.

Bryant vs. Bennett is a big different.

Bryant was a stud against the run. He would routinely take on double teams and stone them at the line. He didn't get much QB pressure, but he could compress the pocket from the edge. I'd take his leadership over any DLman we have; that's where we miss him.

Bennett is every bit as good against the run as Bryant was, but it's different. You rarely see Bennett get blown back, even by larger OLmen, but he can get washed out by a double team. Where he excels against the run is penetration; he's so much quicker off the snap than Bryant was, that he's way more disruptive. You'll get the same production against the run, but you'll also get more negative plays out of Bennett, and he also creates more fumbles.

Bennett's biggest advantage is his versatility. If a team audibled to a pass with Bryant, you knew you weren't getting great pass rush. Audible to a pass vs. Bennett and he can slide all over the place and still create great pressure. I'd take Bennett the player hands down over Bryant ( and I loved me some Big Red).

I think for the price we have for both Avril and Bennett, we're in outstanding shape and I love both contracts. We still need to lock up Irvin, who I think can still be a great LEO for us, or be one of the best OLB's in the league. He's going to be that good, and that versatile.

I'm worried a team that runs a true 3-4 might really value Irvin and over pay to rip him away from us. I don't think we want to give him more than other key players.

In FA last year these older 3-4 LBS got paid decent both 6 mil annually
Karlos Dansby got a 4yr 24 mil
Lamar Woodley got a 2yr 12 mil deal

The highest-paid 3-4 linebackers (cap number) for the 2014 season

Tamba Hali, Chiefs $11.46 million
Brian Orakpo, Redskins $11.455M
Clay Matthews, Packers $10.943M
Jason Worilds, Steelers $9.754M
Robert Mathis, Colts $8.754M

Source: overthecap.com

I think $6-7 mil per would be fair I could see us going up to $8 mil per if we really want to keep him. If he gets a desperate team that pays him over $9 mil we might have to let him walk. He is not a bigger piece to this puzzle than KJ, Avril, and Bennett and they are all paid 4 year deal that avg $7 mil. Irvin should not get more than them. Even Kam's deal avgs
$7 Mil.