Bruce Irvin time table for training camp not set.

[Basis4day]

Who else was available for the Hawks to pick instead of Irvin? If you're going to criticize the pick i think you need to compare it to who else was available and glaring holes on the team that could have been filled with those players.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

Who else was available for the Hawks to pick instead of Irvin? If you're going to criticize the pick i think you need to compare it to who else was available and glaring holes on the team that could have been filled with those players.

Let's look at the remainder of the 1st round to see who the Hawks might have taken.

Quinton Coples
Dre Kirkpatrick
Melvin Ingram
Shea McClellin
Kendall Wright
Chandler Jones
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
David DeCastro
Dont'a Hightower
Whitney Mercilus
Kevin Zeitler
Nick Perry
Harrison Smith
A. J. Jenkins
Doug Martin†
David Wilson

Not exactly a list of breakout players.

 

[Missing_Clink]

They've got to figure out a way to use his pass rush skills. If all he can be is an average SAM LB, then yea he absolutely was a waste of the 15th overall pick. Are he and Aaron Curry the highest drafted SAM LBs in the last 20 years?

But he does have pass rush speed and he's still learning how to play LB so there's hope for the guy. Hopefully he gets healthy, continues to develop, and his pass rush is utilized. I strongly doubt he ever lives up to being a top 15 pick, but he can most likely be a productive player.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

They've got to figure out a way to use his pass rush skills.

I think we're too hyper focused on sacks. With Bennett and Avril, this team had, and will have plenty of sacks.

I liked Irvin being moved to a position where he can be on the field more than just 3rd down. Now he can continue to develop at LB and become a very good ALL AROUND player, instead of just a "pass rush specialist."

Besides, IMO it's more Irvin's fault that he hasn't blossomed into the deadly pass rusher that we all thought he would, rather than something Pete and Co. need to teach. Irvin has the raw speed and quickness, but for some reason he's having a hard time with the technical development.

 

[Basis4day]

Who else was available for the Hawks to pick instead of Irvin? If you're going to criticize the pick i think you need to compare it to who else was available and glaring holes on the team that could have been filled with those players.

Let's look at the remainder of the 1st round to see who the Hawks might have taken.

Quinton Coples
Dre Kirkpatrick
Melvin Ingram
Shea McClellin
Kendall Wright
Chandler Jones
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
David DeCastro
Dont'a Hightower
Whitney Mercilus
Kevin Zeitler
Nick Perry
Harrison Smith
A. J. Jenkins
Doug Martin†
David Wilson

Not exactly a list of breakout players.

Throw in Fletcher Cox, Michael Brockers and Michael Floyd as they could have been available had the Hawks no traded down with Philly (Used the picks we got back on Irvin, Jaye Howard, and Jeremy Lane).

I'm no scout but i'd like to hear from those criticizing the Irvin pick to chime in on which of these players they would have chosen. Granted they could have traded down again but that assumes a trade was available and they already did it once.

 

[Basis4day]

They've got to figure out a way to use his pass rush skills.

I think we're too hyper focused on sacks. With Bennett and Avril, this team had, and will have plenty of sacks.

I liked Irvin being moved to a position where he can be on the field more than just 3rd down. Now he can continue to develop at LB and become a very good ALL AROUND player, instead of just a "pass rush specialist."

Besides, IMO it's more Irvin's fault that he hasn't blossomed into the deadly pass rusher that we all thought he would, rather than something Pete and Co. need to teach. Irvin has the raw speed and quickness, but for some reason he's having a hard time with the technical development.

I thought Irvin played solid at LB. The Hawks ideally don't want to blitz, so the chances you had to use Irvin in pass rush as an LB was a chance that wouldn't go to Clem, Bennett, Avril or McDonald. His sack totals are a result of the scheme employed.

 

[ManBunts]

They've got to figure out a way to use his pass rush skills.

I think we're too hyper focused on sacks. With Bennett and Avril, this team had, and will have plenty of sacks.

I liked Irvin being moved to a position where he can be on the field more than just 3rd down. Now he can continue to develop at LB and become a very good ALL AROUND player, instead of just a "pass rush specialist."

Besides, IMO it's more Irvin's fault that he hasn't blossomed into the deadly pass rusher that we all thought he would, rather than something Pete and Co. need to teach. Irvin has the raw speed and quickness, but for some reason he's having a hard time with the technical development.

But is it? He looked like he was going that way his rookie year. 8 sacks and 12 hits on the QB. His tackle numbers overall were low, but it certainly boded well. Players of course need to be accountable when they have the ability but don't use it, but I don't think we put him in place at LB to develop those skills further, so he can't be held fully responsible for not building on those rookie stats. Personally I'm with you, I like the move to LB and what it should develop him into. I like the idea of using him as a spy, so to speak, on guys like Kap who are a run threat when flushed out of the pocket, like the Texans did with Mercilus against Wilson. His speed would really pay dividends there

 

[ivotuk]

Irvin had a promising rookie and sophomore season and may miss some TC time and your criticizing the pick?

He had a promising rookie season but that's it in fact they changed his position and he can't even elevate himself over Malcolm Smith my question to you is was he worth the 15th pick .

I appreciate your point, but I think you're off the mark here. He's not competing against Malcolm Smith for a position. Bruce was a starter last year at SLB and Malcolm was a sub.

And Malcolm Smith has proved himself to be much better than his draft status would indicate. He will get paid on his next contract. Not first round type of money, but definitely not 7th round money either. I expect him to get mid-range LB pay, say 4 million per year.

Bruce's situation is not on him or his ability. He did great in his rookie year on what I would say was an "okay" defensive line. imaho, our Dline didn't get really good until 2013. Last year he was put in to a position he has never played, and did a damn good job. Good enough to stay in a rotation that included KJWright and Malcolm Smith.

I can see where one would expect the 15th overall pick to have more production, but give the man time. He's still learning and hasn't been given a chance to settle in to a position. When he does, he will open some eyes and show why Pete picked him 15th.

 

[General Manager]

Irvin has a ton of potential and no one is writing him off, I think he will have a better year this year than last year. We should be able to go back and look at previous draft selections though that's what fans do. It's probably to early to do that with Bruce I have a feeling things will look a lot better for him at the end of the season. It doesn't seem like they have a lot of confidence in him with the position change and the way he was used last year. That doesn't mean he can't turn it around this year and I think he will.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

They've got to figure out a way to use his pass rush skills.

I think we're too hyper focused on sacks. With Bennett and Avril, this team had, and will have plenty of sacks.

I liked Irvin being moved to a position where he can be on the field more than just 3rd down. Now he can continue to develop at LB and become a very good ALL AROUND player, instead of just a "pass rush specialist."

Besides, IMO it's more Irvin's fault that he hasn't blossomed into the deadly pass rusher that we all thought he would, rather than something Pete and Co. need to teach. Irvin has the raw speed and quickness, but for some reason he's having a hard time with the technical development.

But is it? He looked like he was going that way his rookie year. 8 sacks and 12 hits on the QB. His tackle numbers overall were low, but it certainly boded well. Players of course need to be accountable when they have the ability but don't use it, but I don't think we put him in place at LB to develop those skills further, so he can't be held fully responsible for not building on those rookie stats. Personally I'm with you, I like the move to LB and what it should develop him into. I like the idea of using him as a spy, so to speak, on guys like Kap who are a run threat when flushed out of the pocket, like the Texans did with Mercilus against Wilson. His speed would really pay dividends there

Pete and John loves multi-dimensional D-Line players, guys who can play all across the line. Unlike other DE's we have (had), Irvin was not good against the run or dropping inside like Clem, Bennett, Avril, etc. The playoff game against Atlanta hammered my point home loud and clear.........Irvin could not, and still cannot handle the load this team requires of a DE.

To limit him to just 3rd down DE duties is not taking full advantage of his skill set............which is why he was moved to LB. Now he can be on the field more, and still rush the passer if we need him to.

 

[BASF]

The problem is the "worth his draft spot" is a myth. There is no and probably never will be a chart that shows what production should be expected from a player taken in a specific spot. Until there is, all of these arguments are completely invalid. Irvin in 2013 lacked splash plays, so you get people who didn't notice him enough. Not being noticed enough is not worth a first round pick for some people. Malcolm Smith had splash plays because other teams tried to exploit him and Smith made them pay in some instances. You know what Irvin didn't do in 2013? He didn't get exploited by opposing offenses. For a player that was learning a new position, that is very good.

Irving didn't completely lack for Splash plays. Go watch the @STL game. If he played like that for a full season, he would be the best LB in the league. Going off my memory, he had 9 tackles, INT, Sack and a FF. 2 of those plays were ridiculous. ET adjusted his position pre-snap and he dropped into coverage on the TE and picked off Clemens. On the sack/FF he chased down Clemens across the whole width of the field to strip the ball out of his hands as he was throwing it. There aren't many players in the league who could make that play.

If this Bruce shows up for even 7-8 games this year, he's a stud LB.

Agreed about the Rams game. Their gameplan featured attacking Irvin to see how well he would handle it. As you pointed out he had a very good game including a couple of splash plays. It is the reason most teams did not go his way, so he did not have many opportunities for splash plays after that game.

 

[hawknation2014]

This is the best starting LB combo on the team. Its the one we saw most in those last six games of excellent defensive production.

WLB: Malcolm Smith
MLB: Bobby Wagner
SLB: K.J. Wright

Irvin will likely play a backup role at SLB and a reserve role as a passer rush from the SDE position.

 

[vin.couve12]

Apparently he's doing fine rehabbing the hip but they don't know if of when he will be available for training camp. Looks like another road block in his development he needs this training camp. Bruce was the 15th pick in the draft wasn't he.
They have been great in the later rounds but they need to be better with there first pick then they have been since O'kung/Thomas . Pete said he's up against it and will have to work his butt off to make it back.

The quote from Pete in the recent article is actually a re-hash quote from Pete in a press conf sometime in the last camp or in OTAs, one of the two. What happened was, Irvin made the tweet about being 100 times better and then the writer used a previous comment so that they actually had something to write about. Or rather, make it appear that way anyway.

Nothing the writer say is factually untrue, but the comment from Pete and Irvin's tweet happened at two different times. Meaning, the situation would need to be re-evaluated. Granted, Pete would still probably say something vague regardless knowing full well that he doesn't have to rush anything with Irvin.

 

[EverydayImRusselin]

This is the best starting LB combo on the team. Its the one we saw most in those last six games of excellent defensive production.

WLB: Malcolm Smith
MLB: Bobby Wagner
SLB: K.J. Wright

Irvin will likely play a backup role at SLB and a reserve role as a passer rush from the SDE position.

Didn't KJ gt injured @SF and not comeback until the NFCCG? I think that was Bruce/Bobby/Malcom for most of the end of the season.

 

[Bob_the_Destroyer]

Let's look at the remainder of the 1st round to see who the Hawks might have taken.

Quinton Coples
Dre Kirkpatrick
Melvin Ingram
Shea McClellin
Kendall Wright
Chandler Jones
Brandon Weeden
Riley Reiff
David DeCastro
Dont'a Hightower
Whitney Mercilus
Kevin Zeitler
Nick Perry
Harrison Smith
A. J. Jenkins
Doug Martin†
David Wilson

Not exactly a list of breakout players.

Chandler Jones, chosen by New England at #25, is going to be a star and would have been a much better pick, but that's hindsight (even though I was advocating for Chandler Jones at the time.) You are generally right that there wasn't a lot to choose from. Irvin is not nearly as good as I would hope a #15 pick would be -- he probably won't start even if he is healthy -- but given what was available, I can't complain too much.

Bruce Irvin is, of course, a great athlete, along with being a good guy who takes his craft seriously and works hard to improve. Fans tend to get infatuated with great athletes and overrate them. The question yet to be answered is, "Can he play football?" It took Malcolm Smith and Byron Maxwell a while to make it, so there is still a good chance that he could break through.

The eight sacks his rookie year were, in my opinion, an aberration. They occurred mostly in home games where there was ridiculous crowd noise and the offense was confused. He had very few tackles outside of the sacks (3 solo tackles for the season and a few more assists), but he was in only for passing plays. Most of his sacks were when the plays broke down and the quarterbacks had to move and weren't expecting someone that fast to run them down that quickly. Usually, he did not penetrate directly to the QB. That is why he only had four QB hurries for the entire season. Once the league figured out that all he did was run fast around the outside, he was dominated. He had *one* sack his last eight games. He was totally exposed in the playoff game against Atlanta when Clemons was out.

I have very strong supporting evidence on my contention that he was not the pass rusher his numbers indicated his rookie year: HE WAS REMOVED FROM THAT ROLE THE NEXT YEAR.

As a linebacker, he was adequate -- at best. After he served his four game suspension, he started every game except the Super Bowl. He seemed decent at first but like in his rookie season, he disappeared towards the end. He contributions as a linebacker were, imo, minimal. The fact that he was replaced as a starter by Malcolm Smith in the Super Bowl and that the defense played the best it's ever played says a lot. There is competition, but Malcolm Smith -- who was unbelievable the last two games -- is the presumptive starter going into the season.

Bruce Irvin still has a lot of potential. He is incredibly fast for a front seven player and has put on weight. Hopefully, he has gained some power with that weight. Ken Norton, Travis Jones and Dan Quinn are great teachers, and Irving is a hard worker, so he will surely improve. Both Quinn and Norton said that along with playing linebacker, Irvin would play at pass rushing DE more this next season, as he did in rookie year. I think this is his best position and the position that he wants to play. With added weight and power, better technique and more moves, I don't think he will get dominated like he did the end of his rookie season.

I don't think the coaches would mind that much if Bruce Irvin was stashed on the PUP list at the beginning of the season. With Korey Toomer and Kevin Pierre-Louis (I also like Mike Taylor for the practice squad) added to a line-backing crew that has everyone back, it would give them a chance to keep one more player to evaluate.

.

 

[Meeker]

That is why he only had four QB hurries for the entire season. Once the league figured out that all he did was run fast around the outside, he was dominated. He had *one* sack his last eight games. He was totally exposed in the playoff game against Atlanta when Clemons was out.

PFF shows him with 20 pressures and 12 QB hits.

 

[brettb3]

I'm not sure where you're getting that the Seahawks don't know his timetable. We don't know what they know.

 

[Scottemojo]

The problem is the "worth his draft spot" is a myth. There is no and probably never will be a chart that shows what production should be expected from a player taken in a specific spot. Until there is, all of these arguments are completely invalid. Irvin in 2013 lacked splash plays, so you get people who didn't notice him enough. Not being noticed enough is not worth a first round pick for some people. Malcolm Smith had splash plays because other teams tried to exploit him and Smith made them pay in some instances. You know what Irvin didn't do in 2013? He didn't get exploited by opposing offenses. For a player that was learning a new position, that is very good.

Irving didn't completely lack for Splash plays. Go watch the @STL game. If he played like that for a full season, he would be the best LB in the league. Going off my memory, he had 9 tackles, INT, Sack and a FF. 2 of those plays were ridiculous. ET adjusted his position pre-snap and he dropped into coverage on the TE and picked off Clemens. On the sack/FF he chased down Clemens across the whole width of the field to strip the ball out of his hands as he was throwing it. There aren't many players in the league who could make that play.

If this Bruce shows up for even 7-8 games this year, he's a stud LB.

Agreed about the Rams game. Their gameplan featured attacking Irvin to see how well he would handle it. As you pointed out he had a very good game including a couple of splash plays. It is the reason most teams did not go his way, so he did not have many opportunities for splash plays after that game.

Strongly disagreed.
Irvin's good side was on display that game, as was his bad. He got blocked out of plays by tight ends and fullbacks. He tried to swim past the tackle repeatedly rather than just take on the block and control his gap. But worst of all, from the first quarter til the end of the game, he could be a yard from the play with the runner still struggling for yards and stand there watching it unfold.

I think Irvin's biggest problem is he is a finesse defensive player. One of the Rams last plays in that game is a 5 yard run where Irvin opens a gap behind by trying to make a splash play, then gets pushed to the ground and given the business by a Ram tackle, 77. They know he isn't a physical player either.

Irvin could be just like Matthews in GB. But he isn't. He doesn't want it as badly.

 

[hawknation2014]

This is the best starting LB combo on the team. Its the one we saw most in those last six games of excellent defensive production.

WLB: Malcolm Smith
MLB: Bobby Wagner
SLB: K.J. Wright

Irvin will likely play a backup role at SLB and a reserve role as a passer rush from the SDE position.

Didn't KJ gt injured @SF and not comeback until the NFCCG? I think that was Bruce/Bobby/Malcom for most of the end of the season.

That's right. This was the lineup for most of the Super Bowl. In those last six games, we saw Smith at WLB and Wagner at MLB to great effect.

 

[j hawk]

I agree with Scotte. Bruce is not physical enough. He doesnt stick his nose into the scrum but skirts the outside. Playing LB or Leo against the run you have to split gaps take on and shed blockers. Hope he makes it happen.