Bruce Irvin

[Russ Willstrong]

Why are we attempting to judge Irvin by comparing his progress to RW.
Few 1st rounders will ever be as polished as RW (a third round)in their first years as a pro. Irvin's progress has been slowed by position change but we know he has great athleticism and has proven versatile. He's been able to stay out of trouble which was one of the biggest question going into his pro career. He could someday be an Aldon Smith type player minus the Bipolar craziness.

 

[themunn]

I didn't realize there were so many Irvin fans on this board. My OP was simply a matter of attempting to state that Bruce Irvin has lower expectations than any other 1st rounder the SEAHAWKS have drafted in the 1st round mainly because of the success of Russell Wilson.

I like Bruce Irvin. I like his potential. IMHO he has less pressure as a 1st rounder to succeed.
BTW, of his 8 sacks as a rookie, 7 of those came in the first 10 games. So over his last 23 games he has recorded 4 sacks.

What question are you asking - is it "does he have less pressure to succeed than previous 1st rounders" or "does he have the lowest expectation of any previous 1st rounder".

Russell Wilson has nothing to do with it, he has less pressure to succeed because we have 3 very good linebackers on the team in Wagner, Wright and Smith, and 2 very good defensive ends in Avril and Bennett. It has nothing to do with Wilson - just as Michael has no pressure to succeed as a 2nd round draft pick because we have Lynch and Turbin as one of the top running back duos in the league.

To compare him to another 1st rounder on the team I have already mentioned - he has less pressure to succeed than James Carpenter, who is in a make or break season. But he has higher expectations than Carpenter, a player we picked as a tackle who we'd be happy with if he could play a full season at guard. Irvin has a higher expectation, but less pressure to reach that expectation.

Carpenter - as it stands - has a 7th round, 2nd year player in Bowie as his main competition. The pressure to be successful is higher, even though the measure of success would be simply to start and finish 16 games at league-average level. The expectation from Irvin is that he'll go on to develop as an all-around weapon, strong in coverage, pass-rushing and run-defending from LB - basically to be our own version of Von Miller, even if he never reaches his level. But the pressure to get there isn't high, because if he doesn't reach that level, well our defense is already the best in the league.

 

[Seahawker86]

I am always on Fieldgulls. I love the X's and O's. I love watching them break down the plays of the Seahawks defense. You always hear how the Seahawks don't disguise anything they are doing. Well this is correct for most of the time, but sometimes we come out in a base defense but then when the ball is snapped we give an exotic look that throws off opposing QBs. I always noticed how they utilized Bruce Irvin during those segments that I hadn't noticed while watching the game. The announcers certainly wouldn't mention it. What they would show how because Bruce Irvin was in the right place at the right time, the QB had to look at his second look which sometimes was just enough time for our front for to create pressure thus throwing the play off or creating a sack. I think we under estimate Bruce Irvin because he doesn't put up the Sack or INT numbers. Yeah they would be nice, but if he is making QBs look off their 1st read that is just as important. Bruce is in year 3 this year. THIS should be the year we should see a huge increase in his game. So far, I am happy with what I've seen. We haven't heard his name called as much as Malcolm Smith, or Bobby Wagner, or Micheal Bennett in the positive ways b/c they get all the numbers. We always haven't heard his name as the one who missed the tackle, getting consistently beat by his man, or getting knocked completely out of the play. He is quietly doing what is asked of him. I haven't heard anything negative about his play and I feel this as a poor attempt on the OP to find a significant hole on this defense. There is none. Nothing significant at least. GO HAWKS!

 

[kobebryant]

8.5 sacks as a rookie, then another one in the playoffs; followed by a transition to a solid starter at a new position - pretty good thus far IMO.

When you look back at the first round of past drafts and notice that around 1/3 to 1/2 of the players aren't useful players, I'll take what Irvin has offered thus far.

I would however like to see him edge rushing more than he was asked to last season, as his edge rush is his best quality; for a team that likes to emphasize players strengths, the lack of opportunities for Irvin to get after the QB was puzzling.

 

[hawknation2014]

8.5 sacks as a rookie, then another one in the playoffs; followed by a transition to a solid starter at a new position - pretty good thus far IMO.

When you look back at the first round of past drafts and notice that around 1/3 to 1/2 of the players aren't useful players, I'll take what Irvin has offered thus far.

I would however like to see him edge rushing more than he was asked to last season, as his edge rush is his best quality; for a team that likes to emphasize players strengths, the lack of opportunities for Irvin to get after the QB was puzzling.

+1

 

[Seaswab]

It would be nice if instead of declaring he is going to do something, he actually did something

 

[RockHawk]

My memory of his rookie year isn't highlighted by his 8.5 sacks, but of his complete inability to get pressure on the QB in the playoffs once Clemens went down.

Again, I don't hear anyone saying he's a bust, but that you'd hope for (or expect) a difference maker at his position, which he simply isnt. A solid contributor is fine, but I hope he emerges as that impact player this year as some of you believe he might.

 

[getnasty]

I wonder if were gonna see Bruce back as a DE in pass rushing situations this year? Not sure who else sees Clems reps right now. I would like to see what he can do with Bennett pushing the pocket up the middle and his speed coming of the edge.

 

[jlwaters1]

I find this thread funny. Bruce had done fine these past 2 years. I fully expect him to play a "von Miller type " role. lber on early downs and de on passing downs. I think he could be effective doing that and I think it would maximize his talents. Alot of people bring up the Atlanta game, just one and crack on him, pretty sure that game was lost by Wagner / trufant / browner, but no one mentions that. I have faith Irvin will make a jump this year and become a valuable piece in our defense.

 

[kearly]

Maybe things change, but Seattle played Irvin as a situational non-pass rushing LB last season, and as of yet there are no real indications they will move him back to DE. They didn't even blitz him much last year. All the talk about him being a beast in the spinner role ended up just being talk.

Irvin is on the back half of his 20s, so I interpret the hasty conversion to being a vanilla 4-3 OLB as a tacit admission by Carroll that Irvin doesn't have what it takes to be a LEO. And as much as a I loved Irvin in college, I think this is the right call.

My expectation for Irvin going forward is that he'll be a little bit like the Kam Chancellor to OLB idea that nearly happened in 2012. At LB Irvin may not yet be great, but he's still a guy that can hit hard and run like a safety. Basically, they are using him a lot like they used Aaron Curry, who happened to have very similar measurables to Irvin. Maybe Irvin turns into a quality regular but I'm not expecting him to be a stat monster at this point. And barring a change there's no reason to expect him to "develop" as a pass rusher- how can he develop when he's not even playing DE? And they haven't been using him as a Von Miller type either. Bruce Irvin as a pass-rusher... it looks like that ship has sailed. Time to view Irvin as a OLB and hope that he can be another enforcer in our back seven.

 

[hawknation2014]

Maybe things change, but Seattle played Irvin as a situational non-pass rushing LB last season, and as of yet there are no real indications they will move him back to DE. They didn't even blitz him much last year. All the talk about him being a beast in the spinner role ended up just being talk.

Irvin is on the back half of his 20s, so I interpret the hasty conversion to being a vanilla 4-3 OLB as a tacit admission by Carroll that Irvin doesn't have what it takes to be a LEO. And as much as a I loved Irvin in college, I think this is the right call.

My expectation for Irvin going forward is that he'll be a little bit like the Kam Chancellor to OLB idea that nearly happened in 2012. At LB Irvin may not yet be great, but he's still a guy that can hit hard and run like a safety. Basically, they are using him a lot like they used Aaron Curry, who happened to have very similar measurables to Irvin. Maybe Irvin turns into a quality regular but I'm not expecting him to be a stat monster at this point. And barring a change there's no reason to expect him to "develop" as a pass rusher- how can he develop when he's not even playing DE? And they haven't been using him as a Von Miller type either. Bruce Irvin as a pass-rusher... it looks like that ship has sailed. Time to view Irvin as a OLB and hope that he can be another enforcer in our back seven.

Carroll has historically not liked to blitz, the 2010 season notwithstanding. He prefers the pressure to be generated by the front four.

Now that Clemons has been released, hopefully that will open up some opportunity for Irvin to return to the role that earned him an impressive 19 QB hits as a rookie. It should be noted, those comments from the coaches about Irvin ideally staying at SLB were made before Clemons was released.

 

[Jville]

Maybe things change, but Seattle played Irvin as a situational non-pass rushing LB last season, and as of yet there are no real indications they will move him back to DE. They didn't even blitz him much last year. All the talk about him being a beast in the spinner role ended up just being talk.

Irvin is on the back half of his 20s, so I interpret the hasty conversion to being a vanilla 4-3 OLB as a tacit admission by Carroll that Irvin doesn't have what it takes to be a LEO. And as much as a I loved Irvin in college, I think this is the right call.

My expectation for Irvin going forward is that he'll be a little bit like the Kam Chancellor to OLB idea that nearly happened in 2012. At LB Irvin may not yet be great, but he's still a guy that can hit hard and run like a safety. Basically, they are using him a lot like they used Aaron Curry, who happened to have very similar measurables to Irvin. Maybe Irvin turns into a quality regular but I'm not expecting him to be a stat monster at this point. And barring a change there's no reason to expect him to "develop" as a pass rusher- how can he develop when he's not even playing DE? And they haven't been using him as a Von Miller type either. Bruce Irvin as a pass-rusher... it looks like that ship has sailed. Time to view Irvin as a OLB and hope that he can be another enforcer in our back seven.

Carroll has historically not liked to blitz, the 2010 season notwithstanding. He prefers the pressure to be generated by the front four.

Now that Clemons has been released, hopefully that will open up some opportunity for Irvin to return to the role that earned him an impressive 19 QB hits as a rookie. It should be noted, those comments from the coaches about Irvin ideally staying at SLB were made before Clemons was released.

I doubt the release of Clemons had any impact on training camp plans. I expect Cliff Avril to be #1 on the depth chart at LEO going into training camp. Benson Mayowa should be a depth factor at LEO. I found Ken Norton's declaration that Bruce Irvin is a linebacker ............ convincing.

 

[hawknation2014]

I found Ken Norton's declaration that Bruce Irvin is a linebacker ............ convincing.

I haven't read any comment from Ken Norton on how they plan to use Irvin in 2014. Do you have a link to that?

 

[Jville]

I found Ken Norton's declaration that Bruce Irvin is a linebacker ............ convincing.

I haven't read any comment from Ken Norton on how they plan to use Irvin in 2014. Do you have a link to that?

Sorry ..... didn't save the Norton link. IIRC it's likely in the archive over at seahawks.com

However, below is the link to Travis Jones' 2014 defensive line. Note the absences of Irvin's name from the list .... Irvin is mentioned, in passing, as being moved to strong side linebacker and still possessing pass rush skills.

Starters
DE Michael Bennett
NT Brandon Mebane
DT Tony McDaniel
DE Cliff Avril

Backups
DT Jordan Hill
DE Benson Mayowa
DE Greg Scruggs
DT Jesse Williams
DT Michael Brooks
DT D'Anthony Smith
DT Dewayne Cherrington

[urltargetblank]http://www.seahawks.com/news/articles/article-1/Newness-along-the-line-nothing-new-for-Seahawks-defense/e3c50e9b-c0b6-4cea-859c-9a9ee761d672[/urltargetblank]

 

[hawknation2014]

I found Ken Norton's declaration that Bruce Irvin is a linebacker ............ convincing.

I haven't read any comment from Ken Norton on how they plan to use Irvin in 2014. Do you have a link to that?

Sorry ..... didn't save the Norton link. IIRC it's likely in the archive over at seahawks.com

However, below is the link to Travis Jones' 2014 defensive line. Note the absences of Irvin's name from the list .... Irvin is mentioned, in passing, as being moved to strong side linebacker and still possessing pass rush skills.

Starters
DE Michael Bennett
NT Brandon Mebane
DT Tony McDaniel
DE Cliff Avril

Backups
DT Jordan Hill
DE Benson Mayowa
DE Greg Scruggs
DT Jesse Williams
DT Michael Brooks
DT D'Anthony Smith
DT Dewayne Cherrington

[urltargetblank]http://www.seahawks.com/news/articles/article-1/Newness-along-the-line-nothing-new-for-Seahawks-defense/e3c50e9b-c0b6-4cea-859c-9a9ee761d672[/urltargetblank]

Could be wrong, but I think you may be confusing Norton with comments Dan Quinn made before Clemons was released.

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2465210/Dan- ... right-spot

As you mentioned above, the Travis Jones article does mention Irvin as a possibility at LEO:

At the Leo end spot, there’s also Benson Mayowa, who made the 53-man roster last season after being given a tryout at the team’s rookie minicamp; and 2012 first-round draft choice Bruce Irvin, who was moved to strong-side linebacker last season but still has the pass-rush skills that initially attracted the coaches.

 

[Jville]

Well, all I can tell you is that there is a consensus among Quinn, Norton and Jones.

The current 2014 plan is to deploy Bruce Irvin as a linebacker.

I don't believe Clemons departure has had any impact on training camp plans.

My expectation is that they will look to add a LEO prospect/project again this year.

 

[plyka]

I believe that Bruce Irvin owes an eternal debt of thanks and gratitude to Russell Wilson and to a slightly lesser extent, Bobby Wagner. Never in the history of this franchise has a former 1st round pick been given so much patience in his development. The guy drafted in the 1st round the year before him has gotten way more scrutiny by we the fans than Irvin. They have both had similar careers in terms of production at their positions. They have each changed positions. The only difference is that James Carpenter doesn't have the luxery of having all-universe players picked after him.

It seems like the perception is that RW is the 1st rounder and Irvin is the 3rd rounder. If RW had not been a part of this draft class, would we all be clamoring to move on from the Irvin mistake? To me BI is an afterthought on this team. I like the potential he brings and certainly don't dislike him.

Is this his make or break year? Or does that even apply to him?

I think Carpenter has been a complete bust, or close to it. The only reason he is even getting time is because he plays on the weakest position group on this entire team. Irvin on the other hand is a starter on the Seattle defense, the best defense in the league for 2 years running, and some say one of the best defenses in league history last year. His talents had kept Malcolm Smith, super bowl MVP, on the sidelines. When your play is keeping a talent like Malcolm Smith on the sideline, then you're not doing a shabby job.

Irvin is an above average LB, Carpenter is a below average Guard. Guard! The shite position on a football team where GMs think they can get average players after the draft as undrafted free agent rookies, lol. C'mon, not comparable at all.

 

[drdiags]

Yes, Irvin is a top 10 pick and yes you expect a greater # of top ten picks to hit well.

How is Bruce Irvin a top 10 pick? He went in the middle of the first round.

 

[RiverDog]

I believe that Bruce Irvin owes an eternal debt of thanks and gratitude to Russell Wilson and to a slightly lesser extent, Bobby Wagner. Never in the history of this franchise has a former 1st round pick been given so much patience in his development. The guy drafted in the 1st round the year before him has gotten way more scrutiny by we the fans than Irvin. They have both had similar careers in terms of production at their positions. They have each changed positions. The only difference is that James Carpenter doesn't have the luxery of having all-universe players picked after him.

It seems like the perception is that RW is the 1st rounder and Irvin is the 3rd rounder. If RW had not been a part of this draft class, would we all be clamoring to move on from the Irvin mistake? To me BI is an afterthought on this team. I like the potential he brings and certainly don't dislike him.

Is this his make or break year? Or does that even apply to him?

Not many teams are going to give up on a first round draft choice after 3 years unless there's a regime change and the new coach/GM does not feel an obligation to exhaust every possible hope that they could reclaim the pick. They have no responsibility for the decision, hence it's much easier to move on.

Irvin's first year was over rated IMO. He got the lion's share of his sacks in the first half of the season and only had 1 sack in his last 6 games or so counting the playoffs, and that one came against a crippled, lame RG3. He had very few other types of pressures, very few deflections, hits on the QB, or TOL's. He had just two pass rushing moves, a sprint to the corner and a bull rush. Spin and swim moves do not come naturally to him. Once tackles figured out that all they had to do was lock him up and take him which ever direction he wanted to go, he was easy for them to block, and hence Irvin did not require any double teams or chips, allowing TE's and RB's to be sent out on pass patterns.

I was encouraged by his move at the beginning of this season to this "spinner" position, thinking that if he came from an upright position, able to dance around and go up against different, unsuspecting linemen, that he could mature into a Clay Mathews-type linebacker. But he started out the season with a self inflicted suspension for PED's and never really had much of an impact in any game except for the first Rams game. By the end of the season, his playing time had diminished to about 25% of all available defensive snaps, being replaced in passing situations, those situations that are supposed to be his long suit, by Malcolm Smith.

This is his third year, so the learning excuse has now evaporated. There are a lot of people out there that are eager and capable of taking his job away, and as much credibility as Pete and JS have earned in player evaluation, they aren't going to have to worry about having to admit that they made a mistake on Irvin. This is, indeed, a critical season for Bruce Irvin.

 

[Bill Assumpcao]

Pete Carroll talks to "Brock and Danny", last August.

Irvin's adjustment. It's still not clear exactly how the Seahawks plan to use Irvin. He's been splitting time during training camp between the Leo defensive end spot he played last year and strong-side linebacker, two positions that are considered almost interchangeable in Seattle's defense.

Irvin has never played linebacker, but Carroll is downplaying the adjustment. It not a position switch but rather an expanding role. And it's not an indictment of Irvin as a pass rusher. After all, he led all rookies in sacks last year with eight. Instead, it's a reflection of Irvin's versatility and the depth the Seahawks will have at the position once he returns from his four-game suspension as well as their desire to get as many pass rushers on the field at once.

"It sounds like a bigger deal to you guys than it is to us because of the nature of the two positions. We brought him in here to be the Leo knowing that he might have a chance to expand his game from there," Carroll said. "Right now we have good depth there at that position so it allows us to think more broadly, how can we utilize our guys and our talents and get the best guys on the field?

It's a strategy Carroll employed at USC with linebackers Brian Cushing and Clay Matthews, who were also used as pass rushers in the Trojans' defense.

"We moved those guys around exactly like we're doing right now during the course of their careers to get both on the field to maximize what they're doing – it's what we're doing now. So the experiment is successful in our minds at this point already," he said. "It's just a matter of time before he (Irvin) really understands all of the dynamics of the position. There's a little more coverage-oriented stuff. He's going to be a premier rusher in our defense; that hasn't changed at all and that makeup hasn't adjusted. We're just expandroleing his role and trying to get the best guys on the field."

http://mynorthwest.com/292/2328573/Pete-Carroll-on-Percy-Harvins-hip-Bruce-Irvins-role
Podcast included.

Go Hawks,
BillA