Does Russell Wilson make Marshawn Lynch a better player??

[theincrediblesok]

I posted this in the Russell Wilson contract thread but it makes sense here too. They are great with each other, but could stand on their own ground. You have to look at Adrian's Peterson's stats, because having a great running back to help you out doesn't help make a great QB. Both would be great alone, It would mean that Lynch would have to carry the load more if his QB isn't as great, and Russell would have to throw alot more if he doesn't have a great Running back, but having both make the read option more deadly, and the run game function much better. Without Wilson as a threat though the read option won't work as well, I don't' want to see Tarvaris running a read option keeper only to fall down on his shoulders untouched by anyone.



Adrian Peterson is a good indicator that having a good running back doesn't make the QB look good, look at the stats below. Peterson will get his yards and TDs, so if having one of the best in the backfield is suppose to take pressure off the QB then why is his QBs throwing so many INT and having no more than 22TDs, except for the 2008 and 2009 year?

2013: He had Matt Cassell, Christian Ponder and Josh Freeman combined for 18TD and 19INT, Peterson rushed for 1266 yards and 10 TD in 14 games

2012: Christian Ponder made 18TD and 12INT, Peterson rushed for 2091 yards and 12TD in 16 games

2011: Christian Ponder, Donovan Mcnabe, and Joe Web combined for 20TD and 17INT, Peterson rushed for 970 yards and 12TD in 12 games

2010: Brett Favre, Joe Web and Tarvaris Jackson combined for 14TD and 26INT, Peterson rushed for 1298 yards and 12TD in 15 games

2009: Bret Favre and Tarvaris Jackson combined for 34TD and 7INT, Peterson rushed for 1383 yards and 18TD n 16 games

2008: Gus Frefrotte, Tarvaris Jackson combined for 22TD and 17INT Peterson rushed for 1760 yards and 10TD in 16 games

2007: Tarvaris Jackson, Kelly Holcomb, and Brooks Bollinger combined for 12TD 14INT, Peterson rushed for 1341 yards and 12TD in 16 games

 

[AVL]

Montee Ball had his career year while playing with Wilson at Wisconsin. That he was at the Heisman finals in New York rather than Wilson was in line with the popular thinking here.

 

[hawknation2015]

Montee Ball had his career year while playing with Wilson at Wisconsin. That he was at the Heisman finals in New York rather than Wilson was in line with the popular thinking here.

Wisconsin had one of the better run-blocking offensive lines of the decade.

 

[Hawkpower]

I posted this in the Russell Wilson contract thread but it makes sense here too. They are great with each other, but could stand on their own ground. You have to look at Adrian's Peterson's stats, because having a great running back to help you out doesn't help make a great QB. Both would be great alone, It would mean that Lynch would have to carry the load more if his QB isn't as great, and Russell would have to throw alot more if he doesn't have a great Running back, but having both make the read option more deadly, and the run game function much better. Without Wilson as a threat though the read option won't work as well, I don't' want to see Tarvaris running a read option keeper only to fall down on his shoulders untouched by anyone.



Adrian Peterson is a good indicator that having a good running back doesn't make the QB look good, look at the stats below. Peterson will get his yards and TDs, so if having one of the best in the backfield is suppose to take pressure off the QB then why is his QBs throwing so many INT and having no more than 22TDs, except for the 2008 and 2009 year?

2013: He had Matt Cassell, Christian Ponder and Josh Freeman combined for 18TD and 19INT, Peterson rushed for 1266 yards and 10 TD in 14 games

2012: Christian Ponder made 18TD and 12INT, Peterson rushed for 2091 yards and 12TD in 16 games

2011: Christian Ponder, Donovan Mcnabe, and Joe Web combined for 20TD and 17INT, Peterson rushed for 970 yards and 12TD in 12 games

2010: Brett Favre, Joe Web and Tarvaris Jackson combined for 14TD and 26INT, Peterson rushed for 1298 yards and 12TD in 15 games

2009: Bret Favre and Tarvaris Jackson combined for 34TD and 7INT, Peterson rushed for 1383 yards and 18TD n 16 games

2008: Gus Frefrotte, Tarvaris Jackson combined for 22TD and 17INT Peterson rushed for 1760 yards and 10TD in 16 games

2007: Tarvaris Jackson, Kelly Holcomb, and Brooks Bollinger combined for 12TD 14INT, Peterson rushed for 1341 yards and 12TD in 16 games

Although most of those iffy at best (Favre nonwithstanding) QB's had tepid numbers with Peterson, how do we know that their numbers wouldnt have been even worse with Justin Forsett or some other pedestrian RB at the helm?


I dont think anyone has ever claimed that a great running back can work jesus like miracles, just that it helps.

 

[scutterhawk]

I think Lynch has helped Wilson much more than Wilson has helped Lynch.

Well according to Tom Cable, you are wrong.
Tom Cable has stated that those two guys need each other to get maximum results.
Lynch takes pressure off of Wilson, because when the Defenses stack to stop Wilson, Lynch makes them regret it, and vice-versa, when they key on Lynch, Wilson kills them for choosing wrong.
With Wilsons 800 + Yards of running that helps to bolster Cables "Run Game" and also helps to put that "Run Game" over the top....it's a "Pick Your Poison" Offensive strategy that has been paying off with Championship results.

 

[Rocket]

My question is: What does it matter? They are all part of a team...no?

I believe he was postulating and demonstrating the unsung values of Russell Carrington Wilson, a theory supported by Coach Cable.
But I could be wrong. Ain't happened recently, tho. :mrgreen:

 

[Smellyman]

I've said this forever. They both help each other

Both great w/o each other too.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Does Justin Forsett make Joe Flacco a better player? Flacco just had his best year, and so did Justin.

 

[kf3339]

If you asked every other head coach and defensive coordinator in this league which player is their primary focus to stop on the Hawks I strongly suspect the really vast majority would say Lynch. They would give plaudits to Wilson just to keep bulletin board material out of our locker room, but that would be all. It's easy to see this since every team we have faced the last three years Wilson has been on this team those defenses have been first and foremost aligned not to stop Wilson, but in fact are focused on stopping Lynch first and foremost.

And as an earlier poster mentioned Lynch created the beast mode game in the playoffs and the corresponding mystic that has continued to this day. This was before anyone had any idea that Wilson would be on this team.

So I see a massive amount of benefit in what Lynch does to help Wilson, and only a little if any benefit the other way. The one caveat I will say is that with Graham on the team this year perhaps that will shift some, but lets see that first.

 

[Ozzy]

If you asked every other head coach and defensive coordinator in this league which player is their primary focus to stop on the Hawks I strongly suspect the really vast majority would say Lynch. They would give plaudits to Wilson just to keep bulletin board material out of our locker room, but that would be all. It's easy to see this since every team we have faced the last three years Wilson has been on this team those defenses have been first and foremost aligned not to stop Wilson, but in fact are focused on stopping Lynch first and foremost.

And as an earlier poster mentioned Lynch created the beast mode game in the playoffs and the corresponding mystic that has continued to this day. This was before anyone had any idea that Wilson would be on this team.

So I see a massive amount of benefit in what Lynch does to help Wilson, and only a little if any benefit the other way. The one caveat I will say is that with Graham on the team this year perhaps that will shift some, but lets see that first.

Well coaches I hear explaining stopping our offense don't focus solely on Lynch. Huard has gone over this as well and at a minimum it's an equal partnership. I still think Wilson's threat to run does more for the offense than any other single thing.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Of course they focus on stopping Lynch, but you know Wilson also have a spy on him most of the game too. If he wasn't a threat they wouldn't care, but the problem with that is the front 7 is already going to get Lynch which means they can get to Wilson too. The thiing that both of them are good at is being elusive. When we had three elusive players in Wilson, Tate, and Lynch, man I felt this team was unstoppable. Graham and Tyler will help this team out I have a good feeling about this.

 

[WilsonMVP]

If you asked every other head coach and defensive coordinator in this league which player is their primary focus to stop on the Hawks I strongly suspect the really vast majority would say Lynch. They would give plaudits to Wilson just to keep bulletin board material out of our locker room, but that would be all. It's easy to see this since every team we have faced the last three years Wilson has been on this team those defenses have been first and foremost aligned not to stop Wilson, but in fact are focused on stopping Lynch first and foremost.

And as an earlier poster mentioned Lynch created the beast mode game in the playoffs and the corresponding mystic that has continued to this day. This was before anyone had any idea that Wilson would be on this team.

So I see a massive amount of benefit in what Lynch does to help Wilson, and only a little if any benefit the other way. The one caveat I will say is that with Graham on the team this year perhaps that will shift some, but lets see that first.

Well coaches I hear explaining stopping our offense don't focus solely on Lynch. Huard has gone over this as well and at a minimum it's an equal partnership. I still think Wilson's threat to run does more for the offense than any other single thing.

If they arent focusing on Wilson run they are stupid. On first down for his career Wilson has 147 rushes for 799 yards for a 5.4 avg and 5TD

If you break it down by year on first down
2014- 57 attempts 327 yards 5.7YPC 3TD
2013- 45 attempts 278 yards 6.2YPC 1TD
2012- 45 attempts 194 yards 4.3YPC 1TD

To contrast that..this is Lynchs stats on first down the last 3 years

2014- 146 attempts 666 yards 4.6YPC 8TD
2013- 158 attempts 645 yards 4.1 YPC 4TD
2012- 174 attempts 867 yards 5YPC 8TD

One thing I found REALLY interesting is just how low lynchs carries were on 3rd down...is it just me or does this seem abnormally low for a team that runs the ball a lot
2012- 15 carries on third down
2013- 21 carries on third down
2014- 29 carries on third down

That comes out to 65 carries on third down for Lynch since Wilson has been QB...That just seems crazy to me but maybe its league average. Lynch has 896 total carries the past 3 years and only 65 of them are on third down..huh? That means only 7% of his carries happen on 3rd down. Now obv there are more 1st and 2nd downs due to converting on those downs and not reaching a 3rd down but I just thought this was really really low. Anyone have input on this?

Contrast that with Wilson on third down
66 carries 429 yards 6.5 YPC 2TD and hes thrown it 385 times.

I think this is why having a good QB with a good RB is so important because when that RB gets the ball twice lets say and its still 3rd and 6 or longer your QB has to convert that pass (or run it like Wilson is so good at) and cant rely on the RB to get that conversion.

With Wilson he is especially dangerous while taking off for the run and if you just key on Lynch he will eat you alive. In Wilsons 308 career rushes he has 108 conversions for another first down. That is a first down rate of 35%...IF you include first downs by rushing and passing and calculate the first down rate Wilson is at 41%. That is HUGE for an offense and provides more downs for Lynch to run the ball and it also has to demoralize and tire out the D which helps Lynch break even more tackles then he allready would.

If you look at what are considered the top QBs in the past few years and now for their entire career including passing and rushing 1ds

Rodgers is at 38.5% first down conversion percentage
Manning is at 38.7% first down conversion percentage
Brady is at 37.2% first down conversion percentage
Brees is at 36.6% first down conversion percentage
Big Ben is at 38.5% first down conversion percentage

And just for fun
Luck 35.2% first down conversion percentage
Kaep 34.3% first down conversion percentage

And if you want a comparison with a QB that has had HOF RB play look no further than Christian Ponder and AP and then add Favre
Ponder 33.4 first down conversion percentage
Favre 2009 39.8 first down conversion percentage


Wilson for his career converts more than ALL of those QBs

 

[seahawk Dan]

I think it works both ways when Wilson can hit Lynch with a screen play Wilson looks great when Wilson hands off the lynch Lynch looks great .

 

[theincrediblesok]

I think it works both ways when Wilson can hit Lynch with a screen play Wilson looks great when Wilson hands off the lynch Lynch looks great .

I love the fake block by Lynch to get open for a Wilson pass, those go for huge gains, and Lynch got an open field ahead of him. We should definitely do that more.

 

[scutterhawk]

And don't forget that the OL was built for Lynch and not Wilson. An OL that can at times roll a defense with the ground game, but has been noted as very lacking in pass protection. As a result, Wilson's passing performance and development takes a hit.

Course the pundits only discuss the failings of the OL as it would impact both players, while missing the fact that the OL is tilted toward the run game.

For which Wilson also benefits from nearly 900 Yards last Season...( Wilson = perfect fit for Tom Cables system)
With the acquisition of Jimmy Graham, Wilson's Passer rating should go up, as well as Lynch's numbers, as the Defense will have to account for another Seahawks Offensive weapon in the mix.
I think in the culmination, they will ALL make each other better...At least that's what I think Pete Carroll had in mind when he went after JG

 

[AVL]

Montee Ball had his career year while playing with Wilson at Wisconsin. That he was at the Heisman finals in New York rather than Wilson was in line with the popular thinking here.

Wisconsin had one of the better run-blocking offensive lines of the decade.

Longer than that. Ball still scored most of his touchdowns in his 4 year college career in the year he played with Wilson, tying Barry Sanders touchdown record. He lost draft capital by staying in school another year.

 

[themunn]

Need to remember that Tom Cable didn't arrive until 2011 and it took him some time to get the road graders he desired. I also remember it took Lynch a portion of the 2011 season to buy into Cables system. There are many stories you can dig up from 2011 that talk about Lynch and his 2nd half of the season surge. Fyi his rushing numbers from 2011 were fairly close to his 2013 numbers

There's a clear point in the 2011 season where Lynch's numbers take off (the Cowboys game), and it was immediately after that game that Cable said that Lynch had finally "bought into the system".

But look back at the opponents:

8-8 Cowboys 135 yards on 23 carries (5.9 YPC)
12-4 Ravens 109 yards on 32 carries (3.4 YPC)
2-14 Rams 88 yards on 27 carries (3.3 YPC)
5-11 Redskins 111 yards on 24 carries (4.6 YPC)
8-8 Eagles 148 yards on 22 carries (6.7 YPC)
2-14 St Louis 115 yards on 23 carries (5.0 YPC)
8-8 Bears 42 yards on 20 carries (2.1 YPC)
13-3 49ers 107 yards on 21 carries (5.1 YPC)
8-8 Cardinals 87 yards on 19 carries (4.5 YPC)

A pretty impressive total statline - but only 2 teams with winning records (albeit arguably 2 of his 4 best performances), but a load of dud teams and two fairly crappy performances against the Rams and Bears. The following season he had only 4 games all season where he had less than 4 YPC - and three of them were among Wilson's top 5 games that year (Miami, where he fell one short of Moon's franchise record for consecutive completions, New England, which there's no need to mention, and Atlanta, which - second half at least - is arguably his best game as a pro).

Anybody who doesn't think there's a mutual benefit from having both players on the team is just wrong. That's all there is to say on the matter.