Film study on Joekel

[Seymour]

He's going to be able to compete at LT, IMO, and he'll likely win the job. Don't be surprised if that's the only change to the OL.

My main concern is the same as the last 2 years in that they keep said competition going until the day before week 1 and the OL as a whole doesn't know how to play as a unit. It's ridiculous.

As others have already stated this is my biggest worry as well. I don't really care who the starting 5 is at this point, but just that Cable picks them by the week 3 preseason game and sticks with them. It's the constant churn for the sake of "competition" and learning other position roles that makes none of them really adequate other than Britt.

I just don't see what PC sees in Cable all these years. It's like he has a man crush and doesn't know how to take his blinders off, and see the reality of his coaching ability.

I would say once the season has started, it's less about competition and more about incompetence. Cable has no clue or eye for talent, so he has to rely on trial and error to find the best players. That takes time, and lost games unfortunately for us. In Tom we trust, so... in Tom we fail.....one more time.

 

[Jville]

Some comprehend programs and understand their events and outcomes. Others wander around lost and complain constantly about it.

 

[Jimjones0384]

The problem is that if you take Glownski out you are actually messing up his progression and line continuity. To me Joke needs to unseat someone by his play.

He looks underwhelming to my eye.

90 percent of NFL linemen are underwhelming. The thing is, joeckel cost damn near half of what the other guys did.

The reason being he tore his knee in every way possible to tear a knee, and before that he was considered a BUST as a lineman. So, exactly, what did the Hawks buy?...An injured crap lineman?...It appears that way until proven otherwise.

He didn't cost the Seahawks a first round pick. So, what he is? He is a risk with high upside that will cost damn near half of the money, and has no future ramifications to the cap if he doesn't work out. Would you rather make Okung the highest paid LT in the league? They had to do something, and it is obvious there is a cap to what they will spend, and I commend them for it.

 

[Josea16]

^^^^^. That guy gets it. The FA OL market north into sillyland with a bullet this year.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Would Fant make a decent RT? If Joekel outplays him for LT why not see if its suited for him. He is still raw and moldable after all.

Because switching sides is hard on a lineman and a good way to negate any progress made.

 

[LickMyNuts]

Switching sides at guard is not similar to switching sides at tackle.

Switching left or right at guard is not that difficult.

Would Fant make a decent RT? If Joekel outplays him for LT why not see if its suited for him. He is still raw and moldable after all.

Because switching sides is hard on a lineman and a good way to negate any progress made.

 

[FormerEvil]

The problem is that if you take Glownski out you are actually messing up his progression and line continuity. To me Joke needs to unseat someone by his play.

He looks underwhelming to my eye.

90 percent of NFL linemen are underwhelming. The thing is, joeckel cost damn near half of what the other guys did.

The reason being he tore his knee in every way possible to tear a knee, and before that he was considered a BUST as a lineman. So, exactly, what did the Hawks buy?...An injured crap lineman?...It appears that way until proven otherwise.

He didn't cost the Seahawks a first round pick. So, what he is? He is a risk with high upside that will cost damn near half of the money, and has no future ramifications to the cap if he doesn't work out. Would you rather make Okung the highest paid LT in the league? They had to do something, and it is obvious there is a cap to what they will spend, and I commend them for it.

^^This 100%.

I think the O-line will shake out like this in week 1 and I think it will be a major improvement from last year:

Fant - Joekel - Britt - Glow - Ifedi
LT LG C RG RT

I do expect to see real, noticeable improvement in Fant from last year to next and I don't think that's based on hope. He took major steps forward and an entire off-season dedicated to his craft should yield very positive results.

I think the Hawks will look to shore up the secondary in the first few rounds of the draft taking a CB and DL with their first and second picks. I actually think they'll end up taking 2 CBs in the first 3/4 rounds

 

[LickMyNuts]

He looks like a legit left guard on tape. His progress next season will be tied to Fant's ability to get better.

 

[hawk45]

Seeing actual footage really adds to the discussion, thanks OP. I wish I could see a similar breakdown of Fant last year. Iin the plays shown on the tape, Joeckel does look like he actually can find someone to block on a given play. Even the right guy sometimes. And stay with the blocks. If he is vulnerable to the bullrush, hey, I can deal with that. Russ will have somewhere to run as long as Joeckel stays engaged.

Not sure how thorough the guy doing the analysis was in looking for lowlights, but if the times he failed to stop bullrushes are the worst Joeckel has to offer, he's 100 times the LT Fant was.

Of course, knee injury.

I worry that the clip isn't telling the entire story though. It doesn't paint the picture of a god-awful LT, in which case why would Jacksonville give up on him at that position?

 

[Hawks46]

I think he sticks at LT, and I think it makes a big difference.

I've said all along, if we're solid in the interior OL, we really only need league average at Tackle. With Russ's athleticism and regular Houdini acts, he just needs a few seconds. He doesn't need to stay totally clean.

Last year, we had regular jail breaks where he literally barely had the ball and he had a guy in his face. We need to cut down on the blown assignments and gain some consistency. If say, the RT gets beat more often than the Left, but the LT stays consistent at about 3 seconds or so, Russ can get a feel of where pressure will likely come from. Last year, he had no idea who was going to blast him, where, and how often. There were times when he was clean but still jumpy, and you really can't blame him.

Joekel is immediately our most experienced OL. He doesn't need to be a world beater, just average and consistent. The only issue I have with him is that he's terrible at cut blocking, and Cable will not acknowledge that and still throw plays away requiring Joekel to play to his weaknesses.

 

[jlwaters1]

This entire OL discussion is exasperating to me..

Most on here are looking at the line in a vacuum.

Was the OL BAD? Yes, but it actually better than the first half of 2015.

If you look at the full picture it's pretty clear that there were other factors.

The RB's were a mess last year with little consistency because of injury

Heck Michael was our starting back for a significant part of the season.

Wilson's injuries were also a factor as his ability to run was all but gone.

Defenses didn't have to respect his running and without a consistent running

It's no wonder the OL got exposed.

The players will be better this year.. But will that translate into a much more
Consistent unit? I hope so. But we won't know. I hope we use a top 3 round pick to bolster the unit.

 

[hawk45]

He's going to be able to compete at LT, IMO, and he'll likely win the job. Don't be surprised if that's the only change to the OL.

My main concern is the same as the last 2 years in that they keep said competition going until the day before week 1 and the OL as a whole doesn't know how to play as a unit. It's ridiculous.

As others have already stated this is my biggest worry as well. I don't really care who the starting 5 is at this point, but just that Cable picks them by the week 3 preseason game and sticks with them. It's the constant churn for the sake of "competition" and learning other position roles that makes none of them really adequate other than Britt.

I just don't see what PC sees in Cable all these years. It's like he has a man crush and doesn't know how to take his blinders off, and see the reality of his coaching ability.

I would say once the season has started, it's less about competition and more about incompetence. Cable has no clue or eye for talent, so he has to rely on trial and error to find the best players. That takes time, and lost games unfortunately for us. In Tom we trust, so... in Tom we fail.....one more time.

Well said.

Continuity is *one* concern but I do not have it as my number one concern at all. Our continuity took a hit when we yanked Drew Nowak, but the line performance immediately improved because Lewis had actual talent. That is a prime example of Cable's inability to identify talent (prior to his player failing for weeks and weeks) being much more costly, or at least as costly, as lack of continuity.

 

[Jville]

[youtube]hlG7MoY1acg[/youtube]
Check it out.

Thank you RussB for posting this film study by Coleman Crawford.

Much thanks to Coleman Crawford for investing the time in producing this Luke Joeckel presentation.

Nice contributions. :2thumbs:

 

[hawknation2017]

He's going to be able to compete at LT, IMO, and he'll likely win the job. Don't be surprised if that's the only change to the OL.

My main concern is the same as the last 2 years in that they keep said competition going until the day before week 1 and the OL as a whole doesn't know how to play as a unit. It's ridiculous.

As others have already stated this is my biggest worry as well. I don't really care who the starting 5 is at this point, but just that Cable picks them by the week 3 preseason game and sticks with them. It's the constant churn for the sake of "competition" and learning other position roles that makes none of them really adequate other than Britt.

I just don't see what PC sees in Cable all these years. It's like he has a man crush and doesn't know how to take his blinders off, and see the reality of his coaching ability.

I would say once the season has started, it's less about competition and more about incompetence. Cable has no clue or eye for talent, so he has to rely on trial and error to find the best players. That takes time, and lost games unfortunately for us. In Tom we trust, so... in Tom we fail.....one more time.

Well said.

Continuity is *one* concern but I do not have it as my number one concern at all. Our continuity took a hit when we yanked Drew Nowak, but the line performance immediately improved because Lewis had actual talent. That is a prime example of Cable's inability to identify talent (prior to his player failing for weeks and weeks) being much more costly, or at least as costly, as lack of continuity.

That problem was neither Lewis nor Nowak were good enough to be a quality NFL starter. Cable was put in an awful position after the Max Unger trade. In order to extend Russell Wilson, pay Marshawn Lynch, and lock up our defensive Pro Bowlers, the front office decided to trim salary from the offensive line without supplying it with talent.

Bottom line, Cable has been given absolute crap. And he's tried to coach these guys up while maintaining a smile on his face. He hasn't whined or complained or pinned the blame on the front office or a player (*cough, Bevell, cough*). He's actually managed to coach up a motley crew of technique-less undrafted free agents, defensive linemen, and a basketball player into something resembling what an NFL offensive line should look like.

Yet, people insist on blaming Cable for Schneider and Carroll's difficult trade-off? That's like blaming a race car driver for finishing last when he was given a Prius to drive at the Grand Prix.

 

[HawkGA]

Well, he did get more draft picks than anybody else in the league in the last I-don't-know-how-many years. So I wouldn't go too overboard on the Poor-Tom-Cable Train.

 

[hawknation2017]

Well, he did get more draft picks than anybody else in the league in the last I-don't-know-how-many years. So I wouldn't go too overboard on the Poor-Tom-Cable Train.

Of course we have had to draft more linemen in the last couple years when we have not re-signed our free agents: Russell Okung, James Carpenter, and J.R. Sweezy started for the entirety of their rookie contracts (when they weren't hurt), but we chose to devote those resources to other position groups rather than extend them. Max Unger was traded.

Britt, Ifedi, and Glowinski look to me like successful draft picks with the potential to form the foundation for the interior of the line. Like Britt (and Carpenter before him), my impression of Ifedi is that he is better suited for the interior than at OT. He looks more explosive charging forward in the interior than he is agile moving laterally on the outside.

That leaves the need for OTs. Hence, two undrafted converts to the offensive line starting at OT last year, the signing of a free agent LT this off-season, and the potential drafting of an OT in this upcoming class.

Even the best coaches are not wizards; there is only so much they can polish a turd.

 

[cheese22]

I think it's pretty easy to predict who starts where, which means Cable will make it more complicated than it needs to be. C-Britt, easy one. LG-Joeckel, could be LT but his game improved dramatically when he moved inside. RG-Glow, natural side is the right. LT-Fant, Pete loves him and they stuck with him last year. RT-Ifedi, couldn't be worse than Gilliam or anyone else we could play there.
The only other option is if they want to give Fant a year to learn and move Joeckel outside and start Odhiambo at LG. They are said to be high on Odhiambo.

 

[hawknation2017]

I think it's pretty easy to predict who starts where, which means Cable will make it more complicated than it needs to be. C-Britt, easy one. LG-Joeckel, could be LT but his game improved dramatically when he moved inside. RG-Glow, natural side is the right. LT-Fant, Pete loves him and they stuck with him last year. RT-Ifedi, couldn't be worse than Gilliam or anyone else we could play there.
The only other option is if they want to give Fant a year to learn and move Joeckel outside and start Odhiambo at LG. They are said to be high on Odhiambo.

"RT-Ifedi, couldn't be worse than Gilliam or anyone else we could play there."

Unfortunately, yes, Ifedi could be a worse option at RT than Gilliam.

For one, Gilliam has a lot more NFL experience than Ifedi. Gilliam has played in 50 games and started 33 for the Seahawks (including the playoffs) in his career. 32 of Gilliam's 33 starts have come at the RT position.

Also, Gilliam moves better laterally than Ifedi. Compare Gilliam's 4.56 short shuttle to Ifedi's 4.75. Lateral quickness is especially important at OT. It's not hard to imagine that less experienced and less agile Ifedi would struggle even more in pass protection than Gilliam has at RT.

That is not to say that Gilliam is a good starting RT; he's not. I am only saying Ifedi could be even worse if moved to RT, a position he has never played before in the NFL.

However, if Ifedi is allowed to continue his development inside at right guard, he could very well grow into one of the better run blocking guards in the league. He has already flashed the potential to be an explosive run blocker inside.

Regarding Odhiambo, I think he will need to improve in order to make the 53-man roster. If Joekel sticks at LT (with Fant as his backup) Odhiambo would offer even less utility, unless he can prove to be capable at a position other than LT.