Geno’s Back

[keasley45]

Stretch that far? All I did was Google stupid mvp votes and I included that because I thought it was humorous,

Please try to explain Stafford missing two games and throwing for 3900 24/11 is worthy of being the most valuable player in professional football.

Or did I stretch too far mentioning him too? There a pre-season ap mvp vote I missed?

I think in any given year over the last few, Stafford's performance would garner attention for MVP consideration over a stretch. He'll likely be a HOF QB. That's probably why he got a vote?

 

[bigcc]

Bro. Let me illuminate something for you. His receivers could have been Terrel Owens, Jerry Rice, and Steve Austin. If your line allows a rusher in your face at the third highest rate in the league (statistical fact), it doesnt matter.

And, because you probably didnt know this, Seattle had the 9th worst wr corp in the league in terms of drop rate. NINTH WORST. That means there were 24 teams with more efficient wr corps. And that was supposed to help Geno?

Its like claiming a driver should have won a race because he had a Lambo, but neglecting that the tires were flat. And im cherry picking??

And constantly down playing his start to 2022 while holding up how he finished ISNT cherry picking??

Splain that one to me.

Yes you are cherry picking. I am too because I'm cherry picking this stupid cherry picking comment.

Today I learned drop rate encompasses wr talent and I'm sure those 23 other teams wouldn't trade wr corps

BTW did you look up team drops or wr drops?

Also I'm not the guy who you were arguing with, I haven't said anything about the start to his 2022 campaign, but you do you bro

Still awaiting defense of Stafford getting a vote btw

 

[keasley45]

Stretch that far? All I did was Google stupid mvp votes and I included that because I thought it was humorous,

Please try to explain Stafford missing two games and throwing for 3900 24/11 is worthy of being the most valuable player in professional football.

Or did I stretch too far mentioning him too? There a pre-season ap mvp vote I missed?

Yeah. Stretch that far to bother posting a Mark Mosley reference.

Where were you in 2022? For a period Geno was considered the FRONT RUNNER for MVP. And that means nothing? You cat as if it was just some charitable hand out. And that's the issue with a lot of the arguments folks try to make here.

27th o line. Cherry picking?
29th rushing game. Cherry picking?
A defense that stopped no one (30th). Cherry picking?
A wr corp that was 9th worst in catching watchable balls. Cherry picking?

So explain to me how a qb should be top 10 anyway with those facts around him.

Or find an example for me... any - you found Mosley pretty quickly, of the qb that threw the lights out with an (un) supporting cast like that should be easy to pick out. There should be dozens. No?

Just find one.

 

[bigcc]

I think in any given year over the last few, Stafford's performance would garner attention for MVP consideration over a stretch. He'll likely be a HOF QB. That's probably why he got a vote?

I didn't say the last few years, I said last year, which is when he got a vote.

Didn't know mvp was a career achievement

EDIT: this is completely besides the point, but I think he's a hall of fame caliber talent, but he's not getting in with the (unfair) lack of career accolades

 

[keasley45]

All I will say is that if I'm cherry picking in citing the stats and facts that I have, I'm glad the FO is as well. The dude is more than good enough at the position to get this team further in the playoffs than he has if you give him a better line, a better defense to give him more opportunities, and a better OC.

 

[bigcc]

Yeah. Stretch that far to bother posting a Mark Mosley reference.

Where were you in 2022? For a period Geno was considered the FRONT RUNNER for MVP. And that means nothing? You cat as if it was just some charitable hand out. And that's the issue with a lot of the arguments folks try to make here.

27th o line. Cherry picking?
29th rushing game. Cherry picking?
A defense that stopped no one (30th). Cherry picking?
A wr corp that was 9th worst in catching watchable balls. Cherry picking?

So explain to me how a qb should be top 10 anyway with those facts around him.

Or find an example for me... any - you found Mosley pretty quickly, of the qb that threw the lights out with an (un) supporting cast like that should be easy to pick out. There should be dozens. No?

Just find one.

I'll do you better than one

Brushing aside the stupidity of what I just read, I'll give you his colleague he shared the same amount of mvp votes with that year

Justin Fields who played in 15 games that year

I'm sure he benefited more from having his checkdowns dropping fewer passes though

EDIT: the other thread is making more sense now, you moonlighting as multiple posters?

Need at least fields and a higher 1st in order to bless the Bears with geno, lord and savior of the 8 game streak

 

[bigcc]

All I will say is that if I'm cherry picking in citing the stats and facts that I have, I'm glad the FO is as well. The dude is more than good enough at the position to get this team further in the playoffs than he has if you give him a better line, a better defense to give him more opportunities, and a better OC.

No shit dude

Trent Dilfer is a superbowl winning starting qb, of course geno could do better with a better team?

Before you take my words out of context because it's very clear what you're doing, I'm not even remotely saying geno is a Dilfer level qb, I'm just using it as an example of how silly your position is.

I've said repeatedly, that while I'd like to move on from geno, it's age/salary while we're completely reshaping the team, NOT his play.

Your fervor of defending geno to the point of saying he did it DESPITE the receivers, is only slightly less absurd than the people pining for lock to replace him.

 

[WarHawks]

Apologies for being rude. That was a mistake and I shouldn't have made it personal. Dumb. No excuse. That said, yes, Russ was widely considered top three at his peak, and without question top five, and in the mvp discussion. Is that controversial? I thought it was a simple statement of fact.

 

[WarHawks]

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

I can't tell why anyone would think we shouldn't have a top 5 qb and want to be the best team in the NFL. If not, why bother playing the games?

 

[keasley45]

No shit dude

Trent Dilfer is a superbowl winning starting qb, of course geno could do better with a better team?

Before you take my words out of context because it's very clear what you're doing, I'm not even remotely saying geno is a Dilfer level qb, I'm just using it as an example of how silly your position is.

I've said repeatedly, that while I'd like to move on from geno, it's age/salary while we're completely reshaping the team, NOT his play.

Your fervor of defending geno to the point of saying he did it DESPITE the receivers, is only slightly less absurd than the people pining for lock to replace him.

I'm not trying to take anything out of context and I'm not trying to single you out as much as i am speaking to the body of criticism that just doesnt make rational sense in many instances.

With respect to wideouts, Is it absurd to say Geno's completion percentage was lower than it could have been, if the receivers dropped the balls at the rate they did? This is universally talked about on seattle radio by Bump and Stacey, Brock, Dave... they've all commented on how down a year the wr corp had. i dont know what there is to dispute. unless somehow the names on the backs of the jersey's negate the fact that their drop rate was ninth worst.

And i'm not defending geno as much as im pointing out how absolutely hypocritical it is to one year, say the dude finished poorly, and blast him for it. and then the next year, when he finished strong, ignore it. How one year, he gets labeled, 'incapable of carrying the team', and the next, sets the NFL record for 4th qtr go ahead drives and the same critics say nothing. Or better, how the team finished with a winning record... and did so with one of the 3 worst rushing attacks in the league in terms of efficiency and utilization. How does that happen unless the QB is actually doing a pretty god job? Or how he repeatedly gets framed as not great at reading defenses or getting the ball out, when he was the 3rd most pressured qb in the league and STILL posted the 13th best qbr.

Broken record...

Or... how he posted the 13th best QBR, when playing behind the 27th ranked o-line, in front of the 29th ranked run game, across from the 30th ranked defense, and tossed passed to receivers who dropped them at the 9th highest rate. And yet its inconceivable to some that his ceiling can be higher than 13th best. Top 10 is 3 spots higher than 13. Is him improving 3 spots if the team improves on any of the areas they failed in that i mentioned, so far fetched? he already was the 8th best QB the year prior. Yet SOMEHOW the fact that he got an MVP vote is cast aside, the basically ouststanding stretches of play hes shown... all the positives are couched as 'yeah buts' and instead, hes labeled as 'average at best'.

And i say all that and ALSO maintain that the team needs to find its next Wilson or Hasselbeck. But the idea that Geno cant be the QB of this team until he proves otherwise is silly. And to date, he's shown he can win even when the pieces around him are questionable. NOT THE NAMES - THE PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD.

And as to his age and salary, he has shown zero ill effect from 'age' and and its been pretty universally agreed to by folks who look at this kind of thing, whether in the media, or obviously from the FO, that his 30 mil salary is a bargain for his performance. And he's not signed until he's 40, he's signed through 2025. i could see it if he'd lost something off of his fast ball, or was no longer able to make certain throws. But thats unequivocally not true. he's rated in the top 10 in deep throw accuracy and is consistently rated highly in completing difficult throws. The argument that we should save money and sacrifice play at the position, or that there's some lineup of guys that can do what Geno has done under the circumstances he's done it for the pay he's doing it for is absurd.

if the argument is to draft Penix or Nix, thats not a dispute. get a guy if you can. But rationalizing that the QB in Seattle is somehow in desperate need of fixing because it aint gonna be better than it is because 'its Geno' ... or... plastering a ceiling above the dude when to date, he's had poor support around him in areas that have been statistically proven to have underperformed is doing so for the sake of doing it.

In my opinion.

 

[rigelian]

First of all, I'm pretty sure luck just the past week or two talked about his mental state being more of a reason for retiring than physical, like he was putting football before family kind of thing.

And even if I'm thinking of someone/something else, let's say it was physical, do you recall how he ran? He hit people like a LB, that has nothing to do with OL when he's going head first vs lb's/safeties full speed.

Luck discussed his mental state as being the result of being constantly battered and having to go through rehabilitation year after year.

CJ Stroud was a prime example of a rookie falling into a nice spot. Their OL was ranked 6th best in pass protect.

 

[xray]

This much I know about Geno Smith...he isn't a gr8 QB ; but he doesn't suck either . If he were a movie , I would rate him @ 3 stars... better than average . I stand by this rating until I have a reason to change it .

 

[DarkVictory23]

I can't tell why anyone would think we shouldn't have a top 5 qb and want to be the best team in the NFL. If not, why bother playing the games?

The issue I had isn't against anyone 'wanting' a top 5 QB. My point is that if your argument (not you specifically, but anyone making this point) is that 'we've seen Geno's ceiling' and thus 'we can't win with him' you're not saying we need a top 5 QB. You're saying anyone without the best 1 or 2 QBs in the league has no chance.

Geno was one of the top QBs in 2022. I don't care if you think he was #5 or #8 or whatever. You simply couldn't replace what he did with that many guys in the NFL. Everybody wants Mahomes or Allen to be on their team. But Mahomes and Allen are ON teams.


This was the point of my challenge earlier: If you could find a team with as bad of O-Line, Running Game, WR drops, defense, and a top 5 schedule in difficulty who did better than these Seahawks did, I would buy the argument. We can ignore all the QB stats in the world if you could just find me one QB who even managed to WIN more than Geno did in those circumstances.

I did a check (I only went back 4 years because I was using ESPN PBWR to measure the O-Line and it only goes back that far) and I only found 2 teams that had as many non-QB problems as this year's Seahawks: The 2021 Jets and 2021 Giants. (Something in the water in Jersey?)

You know what their record was? 4-13. Both. Geno won as many games as those teams COMBINED.

Because when your defense is bottom of the league, your offensive line is bottom of the league, your running game is mediocre, and your otherwise great receiving corps has a bad case of the dropsies, this is what your record is supposed to be. You aren't supposed to be contending for the playoffs all the way up to the last week. That only happens when your QB leads the league in 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives.


I said the Seahawks should consider drafting a QB this year. I said they should even think about drafting another one next year since we can't afford anyone who is going to be better AND younger than Geno in Free Agency.

But do we NEED to have the best 1 or 2 QBs in the league to win the Super Bowl? No. The Chiefs won last year with the best QB in the league. They won again this year with one who wasn't top 5. (They just happened to be the same dude.)

 

[rigelian]

if the argument is to draft Penix or Nix, thats not a dispute. get a guy if you can. But rationalizing that the QB in Seattle is somehow in desperate need of fixing because it aint gonna be better than it is because 'its Geno' ... or... plastering a ceiling above the dude when to date, he's had poor support around him in areas that have been statistically proven to have underperformed is doing so for the sake of doing it.

In my opinion.

This pretty much my take, however, my biggest concern is that we don't blow a bunch of draft picks to move up in a desperate attempt to get a QB now at the expense of improving our OL or DL.

 

[DarkVictory23]

This pretty much my take, however, my biggest concern is that we don't blow a bunch of draft picks to move up in a desperate attempt to get a QB now at the expense of improving our OL or DL.

Agreed. I think we should take a QB but I hope we don't expend a bunch of draft capital on it. If Geno is a waste because 'we can't win right now anyway', then flushing away all of our draft capital to get a rookie QB for a team that's not ready to win also seems like a waste.

Saw a mock recently where the Seahawks traded back in the first and gave up one of their thirds to get a second (think with the Eagles?) and grabbed DT in the first, Penix in the second, and a LB in the third.

My feelings on Penix are mixed and I don't watch enough college football to have an informed opinion, but I would be behind a move like that.

 

[WarHawks]

The issue I had isn't against anyone 'wanting' a top 5 QB. My point is that if your argument (not you specifically, but anyone making this point) is that 'we've seen Geno's ceiling' and thus 'we can't win with him' you're not saying we need a top 5 QB. You're saying anyone without the best 1 or 2 QBs in the league has no chance.

Geno was one of the top QBs in 2022. I don't care if you think he was #5 or #8 or whatever. You simply couldn't replace what he did with that many guys in the NFL. Everybody wants Mahomes or Allen to be on their team. But Mahomes and Allen are ON teams.


This was the point of my challenge earlier: If you could find a team with as bad of O-Line, Running Game, WR drops, defense, and a top 5 schedule in difficulty who did better than these Seahawks did, I would buy the argument. We can ignore all the QB stats in the world if you could just find me one QB who even managed to WIN more than Geno did in those circumstances.

I did a check (I only went back 4 years because I was using ESPN PBWR to measure the O-Line and it only goes back that far) and I only found 2 teams that had as many non-QB problems as this year's Seahawks: The 2021 Jets and 2021 Giants. (Something in the water in Jersey?)

You know what their record was? 4-13. Both. Geno won as many games as those teams COMBINED.

Because when your defense is bottom of the league, your offensive line is bottom of the league, your running game is mediocre, and your otherwise great receiving corps has a bad case of the dropsies, this is what your record is supposed to be. You aren't supposed to be contending for the playoffs all the way up to the last week. That only happens when your QB leads the league in 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives.


I said the Seahawks should consider drafting a QB this year. I said they should even think about drafting another one next year since we can't afford anyone who is going to be better AND younger than Geno in Free Agency.

But do we NEED to have the best 1 or 2 QBs in the league to win the Super Bowl? No. The Chiefs won last year with the best QB in the league. They won again this year with one who wasn't top 5. (They just happened to be the same dude.)

Those are all good points, and I don't disagree with much of it. However, I do stand by my opinion, rightly or wrongly, that I do think that anyone without a top 5 qb doesn't have much of a chance. It doesn't have to be top 1 or 2, but you need to be close at least. The last five sb winners: KC, Rams, and Tampa Bay. Mahomes, Stafford, and Brady. Top 5 qb's, two of them a goat/on track to be a goat. Going back 11 years to our sb win, it broadens to Wilson, Manning and Foles. Foles is the outlier as the only non-top 5 qb, and he was just on fire that year. It's a qb-driven league, and at the end of the day, it's better to aim high and miss, than aim low and hit. That's all I'm saying.

 

[chris98251]

Those are all good points, and I don't disagree with much of it. However, I do stand by my opinion, rightly or wrongly, that I do think that anyone without a top 5 qb doesn't have much of a chance. It doesn't have to be top 1 or 2, but you need to be close at least. The last five sb winners: KC, Rams, and Tampa Bay. Mahomes, Stafford, and Brady. Top 5 qb's, two of them a goat/on track to be a goat. Going back 11 years to our sb win, it broadens to Wilson, Manning and Foles. Foles is the outlier as the only non-top 5 qb, and he was just on fire that year. It's a qb-driven league, and at the end of the day, it's better to aim high and miss, than aim low and hit. That's all I'm saying.

Or point in the right direction and use a shot gun, high or low, with a good spread pattern you won't miss.

 

[WarHawks]

^I'm not advocating that.

 

[BASF]

Stafford got an MVP vote in '23 for the same reason Geno got one in '22. More than ninety percent of the people who follow the NFL believed that their teams would win less games than almost every team, but their QBs elevated their roster to playoff teams through their play.

 

[DarkVictory23]

Those are all good points, and I don't disagree with much of it. However, I do stand by my opinion, rightly or wrongly, that I do think that anyone without a top 5 qb doesn't have much of a chance. It doesn't have to be top 1 or 2, but you need to be close at least. The last five sb winners: KC, Rams, and Tampa Bay. Mahomes, Stafford, and Brady. Top 5 qb's, two of them a goat/on track to be a goat. Going back 11 years to our sb win, it broadens to Wilson, Manning and Foles. Foles is the outlier as the only non-top 5 qb, and he was just on fire that year. It's a qb-driven league, and at the end of the day, it's better to aim high and miss, than aim low and hit. That's all I'm saying.

So, I feel like the 'need a top 5 QB' thing sometimes is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.
A team wins a Super Bowl, 'See, you need a top 5 QB to win'. 'Well, how do we know he's a top 5 QB?' 'I mean, he won the Super Bowl...'

Looking at your list, Mahomes is an all-time great QB already, but he wasn't top 5 this year. Tom Brady has won as many Super Bowls being top 5 as he has being 'just' a top half of the league QB playing complimentary ball with his defense. Stafford... was definitely top 5 the year he won. No argument there.

But Wilson was definitely not top 5 in 2013. (Outside of the fact that he wasn't top 5 in basically any advanced metric, he also had less pass attempts per game than most backup QBs that year. Even if you add on his rush attempts, he would have still been bottom 5. Russ didn't hit top 5 level until after our Super Bowl seasons.) Foles was on-fire in the playoffs but he was hot garbage in the regular season. And Manning in 2015 was the worst starting QB in the league (and was probably worse than most backups).

It's easy to look at this list and go 'Well, shoot, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Patrick Mahomes... that's what you need to win!' But Tom Brady wasn't always 'Tom Brady' every season. Patrick Mahomes can lead his team to a Super Bowl as the absolute best offense in 2022... and he can ride his defense/special teams to a Super Bowl parade while his offense is just 'above average' in 2023. And the 2015 Broncos defense can drag the tattered remains of Peyton Manning's corpse to his last ring.