Jimmy Graham catching passes

[12thman.garydrake]

Ok then, early or not we should try playing Willson and Vannet the first few games to make sure Jimmy is ready and get Vannet some reps. Pete is saying both Rawls and Graham are on target for game 1. We shall see.

 

[cHawkPhan]

It is great that he is making progress, but the odds of him coming back to being the JG of 2-4 years ago are pretty slim in my opinion. First off, even when he was healthy, he was not the weapon for the 'Hawks that he was for the saints. When we tried to get him involved our offense seemed to stutter - although it did get a little better as the season progressed, but the offense exploded after Graham went down. Second, I know of nobody who has come back from this injury and was as good or better than they were before the injury. Third, I feel the likelihood of re-injury is high because he is such a big target who plays high and basically everyone beyond the line of scrimmage is smaller that JG. Smaller players have to tackle big guys low - knees and thighs. Fourth, we are a run first team, and Jimmy was downright embarrassing at times trying to block. There is a reason we drafted the best blocking TE in the draft this year.
I know RW really likes JG, but honestly, I think we should take it easy with him, get him healthy and hope some other team thinks will be the key to their offense, and we squeeze some picks and/or Pro-Bowler OL for him before he is re-injured.

 

[Hawks46]

In spite of what BSD says, if he gets his foot caught or pinned down and then gets bent over with someone underneath him ..... he is going to be in "a world of hurt"! I'm not sure if his knee ever feels the same.
Then again....I've never had knee surgery. However, I can tell you about rotator cuffs!!!

Ok seriously, in this scenario, there is literally no strengthening exercise, physical therapy, or even brace that's going to stop ANYONE'S knee from getting screwed up there. You can't account for everything and any player is going to get injured in certain situations, regardless of prior injury or not.

This is literally hand wringing just to dry wash your hands. People are literally manufacturing negativity over this. It's almost like someone mentioning limiting a player's reps just to avoid injury. The chance of injury is just as high on his limited reps as on full reps. It's pure chance, nothing more (excluding injuries such as hamstring pulls due to poor conditioning).

 

[Lords of Scythia]

cHawkPhan has a good post above--that seems like reality. He'll probably be healthy, but how good was he for Seattle anyway? He'll be diminished, but we don't need him anyway, and we also have the TE position very well covered. I don't think Graham will ever be a star player for us, but we don't need him to. GO HAWKS!

 

[chris98251]

The knee may be fine, but will he be right in the Head is what is the real question.

 

[CANHawk]

Accept your glass half empty view is wrong and move on.

I hereby declare shenanigans on the requirement that the glass be half-full or half-empty and request that we all accept the truth: the glass is at 50% capacity.

Unbiased facts > opinions.

I refuse to accept this. Without a doubt the glass is entirely filled.

50% with liquid, 50% with gas.

Where's the "Like" button?

I do not concur.

The glass is observed as being at 50% capacity, yes; this much cannot be disputed. However, it's not about glass or the amount of liquid it contains, it is about the confidence level displayed by the possessor of the glass and it's contents and the position held by the liquid-consumer at the halfway point.

A delineation between optimism and pessimism. Often confused with homer vs realist.

:thcoffee:

As long as it's half full of Scotch I'm happy...

Sent from Tapatalk because I know you love Tapatalk.

 

[Basis4day]

The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It is merely half a glass.

 

[CANHawk]

The glass is neither half full nor half empty. It is merely half a glass.

A glass would probably shatter if you tried to cut it, but what if it's made out of plastic? Or acrylic? Then maybe there's a chance...

But what if it's not a glass at all? Maybe it's a tumbler, or a stein? We haven't even mentioned ceramics.

So much to ponder.....

Sent from Tapatalk because I know you love Tapatalk.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

It is great that he is making progress, but the odds of him coming back to being the JG of 2-4 years ago are pretty slim in my opinion. First off, even when he was healthy, he was not the weapon for the 'Hawks that he was for the saints. When we tried to get him involved our offense seemed to stutter - although it did get a little better as the season progressed, but the offense exploded after Graham went down. Second, I know of nobody who has come back from this injury and was as good or better than they were before the injury. Third, I feel the likelihood of re-injury is high because he is such a big target who plays high and basically everyone beyond the line of scrimmage is smaller that JG. Smaller players have to tackle big guys low - knees and thighs. Fourth, we are a run first team, and Jimmy was downright embarrassing at times trying to block. There is a reason we drafted the best blocking TE in the draft this year.
I know RW really likes JG, but honestly, I think we should take it easy with him, get him healthy and hope some other team thinks will be the key to their offense, and we squeeze some picks and/or Pro-Bowler OL for him before he is re-injured.

Our offense 'exploded' against the StEAlers. Graham was very much a part of that game.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

 

[cHawkPhan]

It is great that he is making progress, but the odds of him coming back to being the JG of 2-4 years ago are pretty slim in my opinion. First off, even when he was healthy, he was not the weapon for the 'Hawks that he was for the saints. When we tried to get him involved our offense seemed to stutter - although it did get a little better as the season progressed, but the offense exploded after Graham went down. Second, I know of nobody who has come back from this injury and was as good or better than they were before the injury. Third, I feel the likelihood of re-injury is high because he is such a big target who plays high and basically everyone beyond the line of scrimmage is smaller that JG. Smaller players have to tackle big guys low - knees and thighs. Fourth, we are a run first team, and Jimmy was downright embarrassing at times trying to block. There is a reason we drafted the best blocking TE in the draft this year.
I know RW really likes JG, but honestly, I think we should take it easy with him, get him healthy and hope some other team thinks will be the key to their offense, and we squeeze some picks and/or Pro-Bowler OL for him before he is re-injured.

Our offense 'exploded' against the StEAlers. Graham was very much a part of that game.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

You mean Graham's whopping 4 catches for exactly zero TD's/points in a game where the 'Hawks scored 39 points - the same game the receiving game transferred from trying to force the offense through Jimmy (for a total of 2 TD's in 11 games) to allowing it to flow with Baldwin as the main receiving threat. You know, the one who scored 3 TD's that game alone and started his 10 TD's in a 4 game stretch. (The great Jerry Rice is the only other player in NFL history to accomplish this feat)

Funny how this article listing the 10 best things about the 2016 Seahawks offense mentions just about every offensive threat we have, yet JG was not mentioned once(with exception of being injured - FYI, Rawls is mentioned as being injured too, but he is still mentioned as part of the top 10).
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/4/14/114 ... er-lockett

 

[HawKnPeppa]

It is great that he is making progress, but the odds of him coming back to being the JG of 2-4 years ago are pretty slim in my opinion. First off, even when he was healthy, he was not the weapon for the 'Hawks that he was for the saints. When we tried to get him involved our offense seemed to stutter - although it did get a little better as the season progressed, but the offense exploded after Graham went down. Second, I know of nobody who has come back from this injury and was as good or better than they were before the injury. Third, I feel the likelihood of re-injury is high because he is such a big target who plays high and basically everyone beyond the line of scrimmage is smaller that JG. Smaller players have to tackle big guys low - knees and thighs. Fourth, we are a run first team, and Jimmy was downright embarrassing at times trying to block. There is a reason we drafted the best blocking TE in the draft this year.
I know RW really likes JG, but honestly, I think we should take it easy with him, get him healthy and hope some other team thinks will be the key to their offense, and we squeeze some picks and/or Pro-Bowler OL for him before he is re-injured.

Our offense 'exploded' against the StEAlers. Graham was very much a part of that game.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

You mean Graham's whopping 4 catches for exactly zero TD's/points in a game where the 'Hawks scored 39 points - the same game the receiving game transferred from trying to force the offense through Jimmy (for a total of 2 TD's in 11 games) to allowing it to flow with Baldwin as the main receiving threat. You know, the one who scored 3 TD's that game alone and started his 10 TD's in a 4 game stretch. (The great Jerry Rice is the only other player in NFL history to accomplish this feat)

Funny how this article listing the 10 best things about the 2016 Seahawks offense mentions just about every offensive threat we have, yet JG was not mentioned once(with exception of being injured - FYI, Rawls is mentioned as being injured too, but he is still mentioned as part of the top 10).
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/4/14/114 ... er-lockett

You're right. He was completely a 'non factor' because he had 'zero TDs.' Then you compare a devoping relationship between Graham and Wilson to a career- long mindmeld with Doug Baldwin.
Just another hater.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

 

[cHawkPhan]

It is great that he is making progress, but the odds of him coming back to being the JG of 2-4 years ago are pretty slim in my opinion. First off, even when he was healthy, he was not the weapon for the 'Hawks that he was for the saints. When we tried to get him involved our offense seemed to stutter - although it did get a little better as the season progressed, but the offense exploded after Graham went down. Second, I know of nobody who has come back from this injury and was as good or better than they were before the injury. Third, I feel the likelihood of re-injury is high because he is such a big target who plays high and basically everyone beyond the line of scrimmage is smaller that JG. Smaller players have to tackle big guys low - knees and thighs. Fourth, we are a run first team, and Jimmy was downright embarrassing at times trying to block. There is a reason we drafted the best blocking TE in the draft this year.
I know RW really likes JG, but honestly, I think we should take it easy with him, get him healthy and hope some other team thinks will be the key to their offense, and we squeeze some picks and/or Pro-Bowler OL for him before he is re-injured.

Our offense 'exploded' against the StEAlers. Graham was very much a part of that game.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

You mean Graham's whopping 4 catches for exactly zero TD's/points in a game where the 'Hawks scored 39 points - the same game the receiving game transferred from trying to force the offense through Jimmy (for a total of 2 TD's in 11 games) to allowing it to flow with Baldwin as the main receiving threat. You know, the one who scored 3 TD's that game alone and started his 10 TD's in a 4 game stretch. (The great Jerry Rice is the only other player in NFL history to accomplish this feat)

Funny how this article listing the 10 best things about the 2016 Seahawks offense mentions just about every offensive threat we have, yet JG was not mentioned once(with exception of being injured - FYI, Rawls is mentioned as being injured too, but he is still mentioned as part of the top 10).
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/4/14/114 ... er-lockett

You're right. He was completely a 'non factor' because he had 'zero TDs.' Then you compare a devoping relationship between Graham and Wilson to a career- long mindmeld with Doug Baldwin.
Just another hater.

Sent from my SC-02H using Tapatalk

Let's make no mistake about this. The reason we brought in Graham was because we needed a large target near the goal line. I think JG was one of the most talented TE's in the game. IMHO (if I'm allowed to have one), he was just never a good fit for our run first offense. As I said in the first post, I know of no player that has come back from this injury and be a Pro-Bowl caliber player. Can he be better than he was last year for us, I would definitely hope so, but I don't see him being as productive as he was with the saints, or getting as many (percentage wise) snaps as he has had in the past.
As far as the developed relation between Baldwin and Wilson as an excuse for Graham's limited production, Tyler Lockett was not only new to the team, but new to the NFL. Yet he proved to be more productive than JG.

Through 11 weeks-----Catches-------Yards-------TD's--------Catches/Td's-------Yards/TD
Graham-------------------48--------------605------------2---------------24-----------------302.5
Willson--------------------9----------------108------------1-----------------9-----------------108
Lockett--------------------28--------------346------------3----------------9.33--------------115.33

Lockett ended the season with just 3 more total catches than JG, yet had 6 receiving TD's as a rookie(not counting his punt and kick return TD). Now before you go saying you're comparing WR's to TE's, let me tell you this. Had you asked me to bet prior to last year, who would have more TD's in 2015 (not counting return game) I'd have taken Jimmy and thought I'd stolen your money. (and JG thinks of himself more as a WR - actually blocks like one - I do apologize if that offends any WR's)
Speaking of money, we took on his contract and gave up a 1st and a fourth to get him and, like it or not, players are like stocks. Some stock you see promise in, buy low and hope to see their value rise(rookies), others are the stocks just to keep the portfolio diversified (the average free agents to fill the voids in the roster) and then there are your prime stocks that are supposed to retain and grow their value, along with paying out high dividends. Of the prime stocks in our team's portfolio, there are stocks that for some reason, are underperforming - when this happens, you have to at least start asking..., is this (injured) stock worth this risk?

 

[bigskydoc]

As I said in the first post, I know of no player that has come back from this injury and be a Pro-Bowl caliber player.

Not that I am in total disagreement with your sentiment, but this is a non-sequitur. How many Pro-Bowl caliber players have had this injury? It's in the single digits. That is too small a denominator to make predictions from.

Of the prime stocks in our team's portfolio, there are stocks that for some reason, are underperforming - when this happens, you have to at least start asking..., is this (injured) stock worth this risk?

Another question that is not worth asking, at least at this point. We cannot cut Graham until after he is cleared to play. For now, his contract is fully guaranteed. This will be a question worth asking if he comes back mid-season and it is clear that the team has moved on from him and/or he is not the Jimmy Graham of old.

- bsd

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

Let's make no mistake about this. The reason we brought in Graham was because we needed a large target near the goal line. I think JG was one of the most talented TE's in the game. IMHO (if I'm allowed to have one), he was just never a good fit for our run first offense. As I said in the first post, I know of no player that has come back from this injury and be a Pro-Bowl caliber player. Can he be better than he was last year for us, I would definitely hope so, but I don't see him being as productive as he was with the saints, or getting as many (percentage wise) snaps as he has had in the past.

It's really impossible to know/understand how Graham impacted our offense early.

On point, I'd say he doesn't need to be close to as productive with us as he was with the Saints. We don't have to score 35 a game. We aren't built to try to do that. Our teams are different in that regard. Healthy or not -- good fit or not -- I don't see him dropping in production as an indicator of anything. I fully expected a mammoth drop off.

We did want a better end zone target. We also wanted a player to improve our ability to convert 3rd downs and keep drives moving. We struggled mightily in converting the 3rd and medium situations the year before he arrived. Graham didn't improve the TDs. Part of that I can see as the differences between Wilson and Brees. Brees is both better and more comfortable laying the ball up and letting his guy go get it. Wilson is a different passer. He likes the lane and he likes to see a guy open. He's more risk averse by nature. That robs Graham of his greatest gift. I'm not saying Wilson can't make use of that gift. Just that it's completely understandable that he needs time to build that trust and skill on his passes to exploit that.

Graham was fantastic at being that 3rd down conversion target. He was a go to receiver who could deliver in those moments. He improved us there.

We can't know how defenses changed how they covered us by the mere threat of Graham. It did seem that opponents really focused extra effort (scheme and/or players) to take Graham away. That has value -- in that it improves opportunities for other players.

I don't think we're better off without him. So I don't understand the vitriol aimed his way because he isn't what he was in New Orleans. He never was going to duplicate that here for us. The trade to come here was undoubtedly going to diminish his own personal glory and stature. And yet I've never even detected the hint of dissatisfaction from him. He's been a real pro and his attitude and demeanor has been outstanding. Even if he's absorbed a toll on his value individually.

He's a mismatch type of player when healthy. Those are rare. And those have impact beyond their directly attributable production. I hope he gets right health wise because he makes us a more dangerous team. I'd like to see what Wilson could do with him with more experience and a bigger sample size.

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

If Graham comes back post injury and is still close to the same player I think he'll excel this time. I genuinely think the pressure and expectation that he had placed on him after the trade has dampened after that injury (along with Lockett playing great last year and Baldwin playing to an elite level) and he'll perform far better without that injury.

Assuming of course that they don't ask him to block now that Vannett is there.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Our offense relied on the old ways of winning. When Graham got here he had to learn different ways to play with Wilson. He's never done a scramble drill before. His assignment was to block, convert 3rd downs and be a red zone threat.

When our offense didn't have the OL to hold the line for deep plays, and Marshawn's lack of explosiveness, it also didn't help it that people knew we were throwing it to Jimmy Graham in the red zone, that forced the FO to change to the quick passing game which starting taking off. Sure Jimmy didn't get alot of TD's but he also was more like a decoy to get the other guys open and to give Baldwin a chance to make those plays. It also helped that Tyler was killing folks as well.

Jimmy had even said that in New Orleans the ball is out in the place that Jimmy would be at, if the FO had done the quick passing game earlier I have no doubt he would be putting him numbers now, but we were so reliant on Beast Mode and the run game to open up the passing game.

This is why the FO always seems to play it's best during 2nd half of the season, they saw their early weaknesses and fix it for a December push, same way they play the 1st half of games.

 

[RichNhansom]

As I said in the first post, I know of no player that has come back from this injury and be a Pro-Bowl caliber player.

Not that I am in total disagreement with your sentiment, but this is a non-sequitur. How many Pro-Bowl caliber players have had this injury? It's in the single digits. That is too small a denominator to make predictions from.

Of the prime stocks in our team's portfolio, there are stocks that for some reason, are underperforming - when this happens, you have to at least start asking..., is this (injured) stock worth this risk?

Another question that is not worth asking, at least at this point. We cannot cut Graham until after he is cleared to play. For now, his contract is fully guaranteed. This will be a question worth asking if he comes back mid-season and it is clear that the team has moved on from him and/or he is not the Jimmy Graham of old.

- bsd

cHawkPham I reviewed your post history. Yeah all 26 of them and I'm curious if your BB. Or do you just have a massive fixation with Jimmy? And most things Seahawk?

We didn't give a 1st and a 4th for Jimmy. We gave a first and Unger (who most believe was going to be released anyway) and got a 4th in return. Essentially we traded a 1st for Jimmy and the Saints gave us a 4th for Unger.

In your breakdown of showing how Lockett was better than Jimmy your stats don't work. While the two were on the field together (both healthy) Jimmy's stats were significantly better. Probably because we were forcing him the ball at times as much as Lockett was learning the Seahawks offense, which by the way so was Jimmy.

The offensive philosophy happened at the mid way point and we would have seen it against AZ if the officials didn't make us start every drive of the first half inside our own 10 on a 1st or 2nd and 20+. Our game plan was taken away so we had to improvise.

The reality is we don't know if Jimmy's numbers would have sky rocketed just like Baldwins did after the scheme change but we do know that the Seahawks have stayed away from the middle of the field since Wilson arrived and for the first time with Jimmy we were actually starting to use it much more. That might have something to do with teams game planning against us also. Trying to defend the middle of the field even against Willson, let Baldwin and Lockett explode on the edges.

I don't expect Jimmy to be 100% to start the season and even when he gets to that point he will likely take some time to get back to 100% mentally but I believe he was worth the 1st rounder if he does make it back and is even 90% of his former self. Having him in the middle is huge for Baldwin, Lockette, Kearse and PRich. Hopefully it works out.

 

[DJrmb]

In an interview today Pete Carroll said that they expect both Graham and Rawls to be ready week 1. He also mentioned that Graham is ahead of Rawls in recovery.

RENTON, Wash. -- Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll said Thursday that he "absolutely" expects running back Thomas Rawls and tight end Jimmy Graham to be ready to play in Week 1. "They would have to incur some issues that we can't foresee right now for that not to happen," Carroll said.

"Jimmy's a little bit ahead of Thomas in terms of the on-field running, so he's a bit ahead schedule-wise," Carroll said. "But still, Thomas is in great shape.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...xpects-jimmy-graham-thomas-rawls-ready-week-1

 

[Seahawkfan80]

Accept your glass half empty view is wrong and move on.

I hereby declare shenanigans on the requirement that the glass be half-full or half-empty and request that we all accept the truth: the glass is at 50% capacity.

Unbiased facts > opinions.

I refuse to accept this. Without a doubt the glass is entirely filled.

50% with liquid, 50% with gas.

FART.

 

[brimsalabim]

We only need him to be a target in the redzone (or short yardage situations). He wasn't in much in those situations because "run first" looks required a blocker. I think he can adjust if we do.