Justin Houston

[MizzouHawkGal]

Well anybody with half a brain would but I'd be shocked if Kansas City would do it given the absolute PR disaster the Jared Allen situation was and the fact that arguably Houston is better then Allen was at the same point in his career.

Understand this...the man is matching and in some areas topping Derek Thomas while basically playing the same position/scheme. That's a BIG deal here in "Chief's Kingdom".

 

[A-Dog]

Do the Chiefs have a choice? He's unhappy with the Chiefs and is threatening to hold out for the first 9 games of the season, and the Chiefs are in cap hell. The fact that they used the non-exclusive tag means they are at least open to the possibility of losing him.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... fer-sheet/

 

[A-Dog]

One last point - getting Houston means re-signing Irvin is less critical. If KPL continues to develop, along with having Houston to go with Avril we'd be in pretty good shape should Irvin command Maxwell money.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Do the Chiefs have a choice? He's unhappy with the Chiefs and is threatening to hold out for the first 9 games of the season, and the Chiefs are in cap hell. The fact that they used the non-exclusive tag means they are at least open to the possibility of losing him.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... fer-sheet/

Until I see different it's a ploy. Kansas City freed up the money but it's in their DNA to never draft a quarterback and low ball any good player after the Len Dawson era except Derrick Thomas and Tony Gonzalez.

 

[Tical21]

Still trying to figure out how you can give Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner 150 million and not have it impact your cap.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Still trying to figure out how you can give Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner 150 million and not have it impact your cap.

It's never about the whole number but the guaranteed portion and the fact you can spread that out over five years and stagger contacts, backload, frontload , and restructure plus get exotic year to year.

 

[A-Dog]

Still trying to figure out how you can give Russell Wilson and Bobby Wagner 150 million and not have it impact your cap.

Of course it will impact our cap. However, it's not hard to structure deals so that the first-year cap hit is small, particularly when they are extensions, which would be the case for Russell and Bobby.

Percy comes off the books in 2016. Marshawn might as well. We've got Okung and Irvin to worry about, but I already talked about Irvin, and Okung (or a replacement) wouldn't cost much more than what Okung already gets paid. Add two years of cap growth and we still look pretty good, even with deals for Russell, Bobby, and Houston. If we hit on a few players in the draft each year like we have been, we're talking a dynasty of historic proportions. Granted, replacing a guy like Marshawn won't be easy, but whoever that guy is won't eat up nearly as much cap space.

Pete and John have really done a masterful job.

 

[A-Dog]

Those same things applied to the Percy Harvin trade and that didn't stop them

And not the most convincing example to do something like that again

.
It's convincing to me, because we gave up essentially the same thing in terms of draft picks, made him the 3rd highest paid receiver in the game, he barely played, he disrupted the locker room, and we still made it to two Superbowls. In other words, we survived pretty much the worst possible outcome that could have resulted from that trade. Not only survived, but thrived.

Houston has none of the baggage that Harvin does. By all accounts he is a team player and great in the locker room. He is one of the hardest workers on the team. He's 26 and has improved every year. Sure, he's in a bit of a contract dispute, but Walter Jones was did the same thing for most of his career, so I don't consider that a negative. And yes, his draft stock suffered because he smoked MJ and failed a drug test, but there haven't been any dings since.

In terms of body type, athleticism, and skillset, he is the ideal Leo:
6-3, 258 LBS, 34.5" arms, and a SPARQ freak, scoring 4th highest of all time, above players like Clay Mathews and Robert Quinn, and just below players like Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware. It should be noted that he tested at 270 in the combine and has dropped 12 pounds since, according to his listed weight.

Point being, Harvin was a reach in many ways - health, team-fit, positional-fit. His talent was Houston-like but his fit was just the opposite. If the risk on Harvin was a 9 on a scale of 1-10, the risk on Houston is more like a 3.

No one player outside of an elite QB is worth that much against the salary cap.

Richard Sherman's cap numbers for the next two years are $12.2M and $14.8M. Is he worth it?

In terms of age, talent, and positional importance, they are pretty much equals.

 

[Tical21]

Signing bonuses are signing bonuses. They cannot be pushed to the next season. I think you're looking at about 45 million in signing bonuses for Wagner and Wilson, no? So even if you keep them at their current salaries, you're looking at about 12 million for year 1 cap hits.

I don't think they can afford any more good players, let alone great ones. It's bargain bin shopping time.

 

[Basis4day]

Those same things applied to the Percy Harvin trade and that didn't stop them

And not the most convincing example to do something like that again

.
It's convincing to me, because we gave up essentially the same thing in terms of draft picks, made him the 3rd highest paid receiver in the game, he barely played, he disrupted the locker room, and we still made it to two Superbowls. In other words, we survived pretty much the worst possible outcome that could have resulted from that trade. Not only survived, but thrived.

Houston has none of the baggage that Harvin does. By all accounts he is a team player and great in the locker room. He is one of the hardest workers on the team. He's 26 and has improved every year. Sure, he's in a bit of a contract dispute, but Walter Jones was did the same thing for most of his career, so I don't consider that a negative. And yes, his draft stock suffered because he smoked MJ and failed a drug test, but there haven't been any dings since.

In terms of body type, athleticism, and skillset, he is the ideal Leo:
6-3, 258 LBS, 34.5" arms, and a SPARQ freak, scoring 4th highest of all time, above players like Clay Mathews and Robert Quinn, and just below players like Von Miller and DeMarcus Ware. It should be noted that he tested at 270 in the combine and has dropped 12 pounds since, according to his listed weight.

Point being, Harvin was a reach in many ways - health, team-fit, positional-fit. His talent was Houston-like but his fit was just the opposite. If the risk on Harvin was a 9 on a scale of 1-10, the risk on Houston is more like a 3.

No one player outside of an elite QB is worth that much against the salary cap.

Richard Sherman's cap numbers for the next two years are $12.2M and $14.8M. Is he worth it?

In terms of age, talent, and positional importance, they are pretty much equals.

Only one 1st Rd pick (And later rd picks) were used in the Harvin trade. This is two first rd picks after you offer Houston a contract he is willing to sign which is going to need to be top dollar. That isn't essentially the same at all. Unless i am mistaken a player had never been acquired through the non-exclusive franchise tag provisions.

Sherman got a top value contract, but he is a homegrown Seahawk who made peanuts before earning his reward. While i agree that Houston deserves a top value contract it isn't the same to pay another team's player as far as reaction from the locker room.

The fact that Wilson and Wagner aren't re-signed yet (which in and of themselves doesn't bother me) still prohibits taking on another player set to earn top money at their position. How many of those guys can one team really have, even with the future salary cap projections?

 

[A-Dog]

Only one 1st Rd pick (And later rd picks) were used in the Harvin trade. This is two first rd picks

It was a 1st and 3rd in THAT YEAR'S draft for Harvin. Again, future picks are worth less than current picks, historically by a full round. There's a draft value chart somewhere that will tell us the exact numbers but it's pretty much equivalent.

 

[A-Dog]

Signing bonuses are signing bonuses.

Not really. There are signing bonuses, roster bonuses, "likely to be achieved" incentives, guaranteed years, etc. trust me that it's not hard to make the first year of an extension a low first-year cap hit.

 

[Basis4day]

Only one 1st Rd pick (And later rd picks) were used in the Harvin trade. This is two first rd picks

It was a 1st and 3rd in THAT YEAR'S draft for Harvin. Again, future picks are worth less than current picks, historically by a full round. There's a draft value chart somewhere that will tell us the exact numbers but it's pretty much equivalent.

That is a general guide, not a rule. If it was that simple i think more players might get exchanged through non-exclusive franchise tag provisions.

Do you have any examples of that ever happening? No one seems to able to point to one, which leads me to believe that there is great value placed on 2 first rd picks in successive years + top money.

 

[Tical21]

Signing bonuses are signing bonuses.

Not really. There are signing bonuses, roster bonuses, "likely to be achieved" incentives, guaranteed years, etc. trust me that it's not hard to make the first year of an extension a low first-year cap hit.

Yes there are, and Russell is going to want a really big "signing bonus." Those things all hurt the cap also. Show me ANY examples of one of the highest paid athletes in ANY sport taking a contract that included anything besides STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE and I'll gladly concede. Fact is, the moment he is signed, our cap takes a 10-12 million hit, MINIMUM. Anything else is a pipe dream at best. I'm sorry for yelling.

 

[A-Dog]

Signing bonuses are signing bonuses.

Not really. There are signing bonuses, roster bonuses, "likely to be achieved" incentives, guaranteed years, etc. trust me that it's not hard to make the first year of an extension a low first-year cap hit.

Yes there are, and Russell is going to want a really big "signing bonus." Those things all hurt the cap also. Show me ANY examples of one of the highest paid athletes in ANY sport taking a contract that included anything besides STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE and I'll gladly concede. Fact is, the moment he is signed, our cap takes a 10-12 million hit, MINIMUM. Anything else is a pipe dream at best. I'm sorry for yelling.

Currently Russell counts $1.7M against the cap.

Let's say we want to pay RW $20M per year over five years with half of that guaranteed... Essentially adding 4 years to his contract.

The structure could look like this:

$10M signing bonus
2015: $700k (roughly the veteran minimum)
2016: $20M guaranteed
2017: $20M guaranteed
2018: $23M
2019: $27M

The signing bonus cap hit is spread over five years at $2M per. Adding his salary makes his 2015 cap hit a whopping $2.7M.

So the Seahawks have now signed Russell to a lucrative 5-year, $100M contract with $50M guaranteed, and have only added $1M to their 2015 salary cap number.

Do you get it now?

 

[Tical21]

Signing bonuses are signing bonuses.

Not really. There are signing bonuses, roster bonuses, "likely to be achieved" incentives, guaranteed years, etc. trust me that it's not hard to make the first year of an extension a low first-year cap hit.

Yes there are, and Russell is going to want a really big "signing bonus." Those things all hurt the cap also. Show me ANY examples of one of the highest paid athletes in ANY sport taking a contract that included anything besides STRAIGHT CASH HOMIE and I'll gladly concede. Fact is, the moment he is signed, our cap takes a 10-12 million hit, MINIMUM. Anything else is a pipe dream at best. I'm sorry for yelling.

Currently Russell counts $1.7M against the cap.

Let's say we want to pay RW $20M per year over five years with half of that guaranteed... Essentially adding 4 years to his contract.

The structure could look like this:

$10M signing bonus
2015: $700k (roughly the veteran minimum)
2016: $20M guaranteed
2017: $20M guaranteed
2018: $23M
2019: $27M

The signing bonus cap hit is spread over five years at $2M per. Adding his salary makes his 2015 cap hit a whopping $2.7M.

So the Seahawks have now signed Russell to a lucrative 5-year, $100M contract with $50M guaranteed, and have only added $1M to their 2015 salary cap number.

Do you get it now?

Russell isn't going to take a 10 million dollar signing bonus. KJ Wright just got 16 million to sign. Russell is going to get 30-50. He wants to be rich, which means he want to invest, which means getting money now is imperative. On the open market, he gets a 40 million signing bonus. The thinking that Russell is so nice that he's willing to take far less than he could get is delusional.

 

[A-Dog]

Do you get it now?

Oh my god!! I totally get it, how didn't I see it before!??! All we have to do is convince Russell to take 25-35 million less of a signing bonus than he could get on the open market. We just need to convince him that interest is make-believe and all this money he's been waiting for is going to have to wait a couple of years. I don't know how I could've missed that. Nobody has ever done any contract that makes such little sense and costs the guy so much money, but Russell is a super nice guy. Surely Pete and John will find a way. Go Hawks!

Kaepernick took a $12M bonus when he got his $114M deal last year. It's not about the signing bonus any more, it's about the guaranteed money. That money can come in many forms.

 

[Tical21]

Do you get it now?

Oh my god!! I totally get it, how didn't I see it before!??! All we have to do is convince Russell to take 25-35 million less of a signing bonus than he could get on the open market. We just need to convince him that interest is make-believe and all this money he's been waiting for is going to have to wait a couple of years. I don't know how I could've missed that. Nobody has ever done any contract that makes such little sense and costs the guy so much money, but Russell is a super nice guy. Surely Pete and John will find a way. Go Hawks!

Kaepernick took a $12M bonus when he got his $114M deal last year. It's not about the signing bonus any more, it's about the guaranteed money. That money can come in many forms.

Kaep took a 12M bonus because that is all he could get, not because he was being nice to the team. Are you really comparing the two?

 

[A-Dog]

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I'll tell you what though, if Russell signs an extension that results in a $10M+ cap hit in 2015, I will publicly apologize to you, PayPal you $100, and leave the board forever.

 

[Tical21]

Geez, don't ya think that's a bit harsh? I like to debate sports, don't take it personal. I don't think we even have money to pay for Russ/Wagner this year, let alone add Justin Houston. Heck, I don't even think we have enough money to pay Russell alone this year, sans Houston or Wagner. In my crystal ball, I see Wilson getting signed this year, most likely at the expense of both of our DT's.