Kam and his tight end woes bothering me.

[carolinablue]

I honestly think you guys don't put as much emphasis on covering tight ends. We kind of do the same thing. In the first game you pretty much shut down our receivers so Olsen was the only one able to do anything. I know we tried to get Ginn deep in that game a couple of times but he was always well covered. Olsen though was able to get open numerous times even when he wasn't the one being targeted.

 

[marymoorhawk]

I look forward to Kam making a big play on Sunday to silence all the doubters and allow this thread to slide into oblivion. Guy barely misses deflecting a pass on one play and nobody talks about the fumble he caused that ultimately got the ball back for us to kick the game winning FG.

Is Kam as good as he was in 2013, no, but no one on the defense is playing as good as they were that year (except Bennett, Wagner and Wright). What drop off has occurred is marginal at best though. He is still the best SS in the league.

 

[vin.couve12]

This was covered already in the other thread. The lone pass he gave up was a cover 3 beater on the sideline where Kam isn't supposed to be. He either had short zone or the flat so him being where he was is actually pretty impressive.

The TE isn't Kam's responsibility. His zone is. He's been playing deep a lot more this year and we haven't had as many crossing routes against us in general when he is in a short zone or when he's even playing at all.

In the gif above where he hits the packers TE. He's got deep 3rd there and the TEs route takes him right to the FS, which is Kam in that case. In the pick 6, he's got the flat where he baits the QB and in the 3rd one he also has the flat and Davis' route places him perfectly in a destructive path for Kam. Most of these things are about opportunity and again, even when Kam is playing this year he's playing deep quite a bit more.

The facts are that the TE isn't any one person's responsibility unless we're in man, cover 1, 2 deep man, etc and we don't run a lot of those. The TE is beating us this year because teams have seen that they can squeeze a ball in between zones in a cover 3. It's a copy cat league and this is this year's crutch just like last year we had 5 (that I counted) teams running a deep scissors route against us. Again in that scenario, people were blaming Sherm, Max, Earl and even Wright, who is absolutely not even supposed to be deep.

 

[Tech Worlds]

Why doesnt he do this anymore. Whenever teams used to pass his way to a TE or reciever he would either lay them out or pick it off. Now they just run right passed him most of the time.

Because he's not paid enough therefore sparing his body?

I honestly don't know but it part of me almsot feels he's here just to his money, and not lose anymore in regards to fines.

Of course you feel this way

 

[JPatera76]

Why doesnt he do this anymore. Whenever teams used to pass his way to a TE or reciever he would either lay them out or pick it off. Now they just run right passed him most of the time.

Because he's not paid enough therefore sparing his body?

I honestly don't know but it part of me almsot feels he's here just to his money, and not lose anymore in regards to fines.

Of course you feel this way

And of course your typical 1 liners bullshit responses that don't contribute to anything besides your post count

 

[Seymour]

There is a reason that he held out for more cash. Most likely reason is he knows his days are numbered and or feeling those huge impacts finally catching up. Still like Kam and his B in boom, but he went about this all wrong IMO. I expect pass coverage is just one indication his skills are beginning to diminish.

 

[vin.couve12]

Football is football. I know objectivity in football is far too much to ask people though so I won't even bother.

There's hardly any X's & O's on this board. It's a lot like facebook and all of it's emotional projectile vomit glory. Every time I come back to post here I remember why I don't.

 

[Seymour]

Football is football. I know objectivity in football is far too much to ask people though so I won't even bother.

There's hardly any X's & O's on this board. It's a lot like facebook and all of it's emotional projectile vomit glory. Every time I come back to post here I remember why I don't.

Ya, damn humans and their opinions. How dare them not think like me!

 

[vin.couve12]

Football is football. I know objectivity in football is far too much to ask people though so I won't even bother.

There's hardly any X's & O's on this board. It's a lot like facebook and all of it's emotional projectile vomit glory. Every time I come back to post here I remember why I don't.

Ya, damn humans and their opinions. How dare them not think like me!

Right. Everyone wins. I forgot about that.

 

[HawkRiderFan]

I can't figure out what a difference it is from 2013 when this D would shut down Graham, Davis, Thomas etc. Is it all Kam? If I recall KJ Wright used to help cover the tight ends too. Are we not doing that as much anymore? Is it as simple as teams have figured out a way to beat this D usring the tight end.

Ok this is really reaching but thinking of any guys we are missing from then, was Malcolm Smith part of our TE coverage in the past?

 

[vin.couve12]

I can't figure out what a difference it is from 2013 when this D would shut down Graham, Davis, Thomas etc. Is it all Kam? If I recall KJ Wright used to help cover the tight ends too. Are we not doing that as much anymore? Is it as simple as teams have figured out a way to beat this D usring the tight end.

Ok this is really reaching but thinking of any guys we are missing from then, was Malcolm Smith part of our TE coverage in the past?

Cover 3 has inherent weaknesses in the mid seam and mid sideline (assuming they run off the corners deep, which most do).

Last year we saw a pattern of the deep scissors concept where the outside receiver would run a post and they'd sneak an inside guy down the sideline with the CB drawn inside by the post. It happened repeatedly.

This year we're seeing shallow zone routes (hook) to draw the short zones up so that they hit the seam over top or in between the short zones and underneath the deep 3rd safety.

The route that Kam gave up on the sideline is something we've been seeing a lot of since we started because it gives cover 3 fits. The corner is run off deep and you leave it up to the flat zone or short zone to that side to get there. If you look at cover 3 zones, there is a void there unless the corner decides to drop off the deep man and hope the FS gets there. And that's not going to happen because of Pete's emphasis on not getting beat deep. SF used to do that a lot, actually; until Kam got them on the one where he camped out there and got the leaping pick in front of Boldin. He must have saw it coming....

What a given offense tries to do, assuming you have a decent QB that can make more than one read, is make you chose. If they know what you're doing it makes things easier. Especially over a period of years. I think we have mixed in more coverages this year...more cover 2, more blitzes where it leaves you in man, etc, but I also think that has caused some confusion in getting used to things. That late play in the Carolina game comes to mind. One guy in cover 2 and one in cover 3 makes for bad juju.

I don't think the TE is some chronic problem, however. Given that we only have 4 players underneath in a cover 3 to the 5 players underneath in a cover 2, there is just more spacing there and since the TE is lined up tight a lot of the time he's in perfect position to exploit it. I'm not suggesting we go to cover 2 though. It gets beat deep more and I'd rather make offenses work consistently and have more patience to beat us than be able to throw down the sideline or in between the safeties in a cover 2. I also think it's good that we're mixing it up more too, however.

 

[vin.couve12]

I honestly think you guys don't put as much emphasis on covering tight ends. We kind of do the same thing. In the first game you pretty much shut down our receivers so Olsen was the only one able to do anything. I know we tried to get Ginn deep in that game a couple of times but he was always well covered. Olsen though was able to get open numerous times even when he wasn't the one being targeted.

You're not far off. It's a matter of emphasis. It's also easier for people to praise or blame one person or one thing so that's what happens.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Football is football. I know objectivity in football is far too much to ask people though so I won't even bother.

There's hardly any X's & O's on this board. It's a lot like facebook and all of it's emotional projectile vomit glory. Every time I come back to post here I remember why I don't.

I appreciate your posts. I hope you'll stick around more, your insight is helpful.

Strong safeties are constantly getting blamed for passes that aren't their fault anyway.

 

[Tech Worlds]

I think you are kick ass Vin. Your a pretty smart fella and I enjoy what you share.

 

[djb28]

Quick everyone Tweet him and call him out. He will be ready to go Sunday! :stirthepot:

 

[LickMyNuts]

From Hugh Millen via Seattle Times

• Out-route catch and run to Kyle Rudolph for 24 yards: This late completion appeared to be essentially the game-winner for the Vikings. Had the last field goal been made, criticism would have been directed at Kam Chancellor, the defender nearest Rudolph. Yes, the Seahawks were in their base Cover 3 — with four shallow defenders in zone coverage — but it was Cover 3 Buzz. This version on the defense’s left side places Chancellor inside in the “hook” zone with K.J. Wright outside in the “curl/flat” zone. When Vikings halfback Matt Asiata ran a short route to the inside (in what most teams term a “Texas” route but the Vikings term an “angle” route), Wright from his wide zone jumped inside to cover Asiata. That left tight end Rudolph, running an out route, with advantageous outside leverage on Chancellor covering from his inside zone. Chancellor erred in playing the ball instead of the man, but this was a breakdown in zone coverage which will need to be adjusted against Carolina’s savvy tight end, Greg Olsen.

 

[HomerJHawk]

Sorry, wrong thread. I thought this was about Kam's tailbone injury. 8)

Wow. My bad, too. I thought this was the 'Kam and his tight end was bothering me' thread.
I was just curious.





I'll let myself out.

 

[HomerJHawk]

OK. Seriously. I just read through the full thread.

Damn vinny, you know a couple of things! Being a long time fan but with no direct background
in the sport myself, I enjoy learning where I can.

Thanks! :th2thumbs:

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Seems like we're basing this on a very questionable PI call, and another play against a very good tight end where he ran in front and was inches away from knocking the ball away. In a game in the freezing cold that was his first back from injury.

Sure, he hasn't made as many big plays this year, but he hasn't been around as much. You do not take Kam out on passing downs. That's just ridiculous. Remember how the secondary was playing early in the season when he wasn't there keeping everybody in the right place?

Relax people.

There is valid concern about his coverage at this point. Checkout Danny Kelly's article at fieldgulls.com, which breaks down Kam's performance against Minnesota. Nearly every big play the Vikings made were because of gaffs by Kam. The article is very detailed, and mega alarming. I would be more comfortable with McCray at this point. Kam was biting on things he normally doesn't fall for and he failed at jumping a route, which resulted in 20+yd play. It was awful.

I hope he comes around soon, or he will be a big liability against Carolina.

 

[imnKOgnito]

Hopefully Kam can find his persona from last years playoff game against the Panthers by Sunday. I'd really like to see THAT Kam again.