LEO versus 5 -Tech

[springscohawk]

John Clayton stated on his radio show with Michael Bumpus that if Clowney came back this year 2020 he would likely play 5-Technique rather than Leo position he played last year in 2019. I know we didn't really have a Leo last year and might have played sometimes at R DE, but I recall them mostly playing him at L DE last year.

Do you remember him being our LEO Right DE last year?

I always saw him as 5 Tech L DE and they hoped Ziggy would be their LEO.

Who played most snaps at R DE last year?

Quinton Jefferson, Rasheem Green, Clowney?

 

[Sun Tzu]

John Clayton stated on his radio show with Michael Bumpus that if Clowney came back this year 2020 he would likely play 5-Technique rather than Leo position he played last year in 2019. I know we didn't really have a Leo last year and might have played sometimes at R DE, but I recall them mostly playing him at L DE last year.

Do you remember him being our LEO Right DE last year?

I always saw him as 5 Tech L DE and they hoped Ziggy would be their LEO.

Who played most snaps at R DE last year?

Quinton Jefferson, Rasheem Green, Clowney?

The vast majority of Clowney's snaps were at either the weakside end in an under front or strongside end in an over front. In general, last year we played the ends in a more narrow alignment compared to prior years. Watching film from last year you will see that the weakside end in our under front (the traditional LEO spot) did not play a wide 9 alignment with much frequency. Therefore, I would contend that we didn't actually have anyone playing the LEO role last year. It was not uncommon, in both over and under fronts, for us to have one end in a 4 or 4i alignment and the other in 5-tech. This narrowing of the ends may be why we were so susceptible to quick developing outside runs and it likely contributed to the weak pass rush.

The big question I have is, did we play a more narrow alignment because we were weak up the middle (DTs and LBs) and needed help stopping the run between the tackles, or because we had no viable speed edge rusher options? The signing and drafting of speed on the edge, combined with no moves as of yet to shore up the middle of the DL suggest that Pete and John feel the lack of speed on the edge was the bigger issue.

 

[springscohawk]

Sun Tzu, thanks for reply. Interesting observation that even when Clowney played R DE he really wasn't split out wide like traditional Leo although playing R DE. I would tend to agree 2019 Seahawks didn't really have speed LEO defensive lineman last year. The main play I remember Ziggy making all year was power rush from L DE (5 Tehnique side.)

Something I noticed in watching college highlights of 2nd round DE Darrell Taylor is that he was mostly rushing off L DE (5 Tech position). But Carroll and Schneider have described him as having characteristics of Leo (so implication he would mostly be rushed off wide from R DE). Another idea is that they would rush him off L DE as they commonly did with Avril, who profiled as quick Leo type but who often rushed off left side. I don't think Taylor has sand ln pants or experience to stop run on early downs as 5 TECH L DE.

So for this upcoming year, Rasheem Green or Collier as 5 Tech on early downs (provided Clowney doesn't return) and Taylor as 3 down 5 Tech while Collier or Green slide into 3 Tech DT. Bruce Irvin and Alton Robinson as Leo on pass rush downs at R DE while Mayowa playing R DE (Leo) or early downs as more stout run stopper.

 

[springscohawk]

Actually I just watched film breakdown of Benson Mayowa in another post on this site.

It looks like Mayowa is playing at Left DE in this film study.

As I remember Chris Clemons who was first true Leo for Carroll's Hawks rushed from R DE.

I have always considered Jacob Green as the Leo type smaller quicker DE who rushed from right side and Jeff Bryant as the 5 Tech bigger DE who played on the left side of defensive line.

Would it be more accurate to say the LEO is DE that lines out wide, regardless of whether they line up on R or L side of defense? For example, Avril was the LEO DE when he lined up on left side of defensive line because he was aligned wide?

Can someone more knowledgeable about NFL defensive line play explain degree to which Leo and 5 Tech DE relate to which side of defensive line they line up? Or is Leo and 5 technique more related to gaps they are playing or width of stance for that play regardless of R or L side of line?

 

[AgentDib]

Or is Leo and 5 technique more related to gaps they are playing or width of stance for that play regardless of R or L side of line?

The short version is that it only has to do with the gaps. Seattle adjusts the strong side of their defense to match the strong side of the opposing offense, and the LEO usually lines up on the weak side of the defense.

The longer version is that splitting the weak side DE out wide (LEO - Linebacker End Out) lets them rush against the QBs blind side and allows them to take advantage of their speed in space. The LEO also has an easier job in run support with single gap responsibility (C gap), vs. the 1T and 5T who will often have two gaps.

The decision about where to play a versatile DE like Clowney is based on where you need them. We had him at LEO occasionally last year but 5T was a better use of his talent against the run. As our roster currently stands we'll have Mayowa, Irvin and Taylor splitting snaps at LEO, with Collier, Green and Robinson splitting time at 5T. Jackson could also make the roster at 5T if Collier and/or Green show promise at 3T in obvious passing situations.

 

[nrayorr]

IMHO and I am not trying to be a Debbie Downner but I believe that discussing the position in which Clowney will play is futile since he most likely will not be back here unless he accepts a much lower payout than what he wants. I don't see that happening. We need to focus on what we need to do with the current roster. This is not to say that I wouldn't want him back on the team because I would love to see that happen.

 

[springscohawk]

Or is Leo and 5 technique more related to gaps they are playing or width of stance for that play regardless of R or L side of line?

The short version is that it only has to do with the gaps. Seattle adjusts the strong side of their defense to match the strong side of the opposing offense, and the LEO usually lines up on the weak side of the defense.

The longer version is that splitting the weak side DE out wide (LEO - Linebacker End Out) lets them rush against the QBs blind side and allows them to take advantage of their speed in space. The LEO also has an easier job in run support with single gap responsibility (C gap), vs. the 1T and 5T who will often have two gaps.

The decision about where to play a versatile DE like Clowney is based on where you need them. We had him at LEO occasionally last year but 5T was a better use of his talent against the run. As our roster currently stands we'll have Mayowa, Irvin and Taylor splitting snaps at LEO, with Collier, Green and Robinson splitting time at 5T. Jackson could also make the roster at 5T if Collier and/or Green show promise at 3T in obvious passing situations.

AgentDib, thanks for your feedback and help with understanding defensive line terms and designations. It will be interesting to see if Robinson is prepared to play more as a LEO or 5 Tech for 2020. Seems like a lot of LEO type players now with Mayowa, Irvin, Taylor, and Robinson.

 

[springscohawk]

IMHO and I am not trying to be a Debbie Downner but I believe that discussing the position in which Clowney will play is futile since he most likely will not be back here unless he accepts a much lower payout than what he wants. I don't see that happening. We need to focus on what we need to do with the current roster. This is not to say that I wouldn't want him back on the team because I would love to see that happen.

Yeah, maybe I should change title of original post to discuss replacement of Clowney for 2020. That is more my interest at this point and understanding LEO versus 5 Tech DE and now it relates to right or left side of line.

 

[springscohawk]

IMHO and I am not trying to be a Debbie Downner but I believe that discussing the position in which Clowney will play is futile since he most likely will not be back here unless he accepts a much lower payout than what he wants. I don't see that happening. We need to focus on what we need to do with the current roster. This is not to say that I wouldn't want him back on the team because I would love to see that happen.

Title changed from Clowney position to Leo versus 5-Tech

 

[Sun Tzu]

The main confusion for many seems to be that DL positions have a left/right designation. Although this concept may be prevalent in many youth programs and possibly even high school programs, as an overall concept, left/right designations on the d-line are becoming less and less relevant in collegiate and NFL football. For the most part (I realize that there are exceptions) the left and right designations have been replaced with weak and strong or rush and power/heavy or LEO and 5-tech or whatever designation the team and/or alignment calls for. This is further complicated by the 4-3 over vs under front. Most D coordinators want to be "multiple" and will play a variety of alignments and personnel groupings.

I think it is also important to note that the personnel groupings, techniques, and alignments of the past few years no longer resemble the Hawk's super bowl era. Defensive coaches adapt to the personnel available and to changes in the way offenses are attacking; therefore, defensive schemes are constantly evolving.

Perhaps changing our .net depth chart to replace the L/R designation on DEs and DTs with designations more appropriate for the Hawk's defensive scheme would be beneficial.

If you follow the bread crumbs from each of the past 4 offseasons in player personnel additions/subtractions, coaching personnel additions/subtractions, and certain rumors (rumors of player position changes and coaches/players that Pete was interested in bringing in) it appears as though Pete is attempting to shift back to the defensive scheme and personnel of the super bowl era. I think bringing Gus Bradley back was a priority and a huge blow when it didn't work out.

 

[AgentDib]

It will be interesting to see if Robinson is prepared to play more as a LEO or 5 Tech for 2020.

Robinson has ideal length for 5T and that's where his ceiling is highest. He's currently a bit lean for the position and needs to develop inside moves, but those are things that the Seahawks expect to improve in an NFL environment.

 

[vin.couve12]

Our 5 techs are Green, Jackson, and Collier.

Our Leo's are Mayowa, Taylor, and Robinson with Green having enough ability to play Leo against run heavy teams.

And yes, it's all about strong side vs weak side in base defense. It's not RDE and LDE like in Madden or older, simplistic football. In pure pass rush situations, it's a bit of a different story. Irvin and Mayowa, like Avril, are more comfortable and more effective rushing from the left side and so they do so when they don't have to worry about run defense responsibilities. Taylor and Robinson, on tape, show that they can rush from either side. It sounds as though Irvin will be back to playing SLB on base downs and rush end on pass downs.

Speaking of which, I'd like to point out that Taylor is every bit the athlete that Clowney is (4.5, great vert, etc), and actually looks better at rounding a corner with power and leverage with a clearly superior center of gravity and agility than Clowney. If you want a comp for Robinson, it's definitely Clem, except Robinson is a prospect that's farther along and also a better athlete than Clem. Clem was only 240 coming out of college and it took him quite a few years to bulk up to 260 so that anyone would even consider giving him a measure of real playing time. However, Robinson plays with that very same heavy handed, aggressive playing style with a lot of angry pop.

The Hawks have already upgraded the pass rush, IMO. However, DT is much more of a severe need right now. We have basically two DTs with any measure of experience (although Jackson plays some 3T as well) and our run defense was really pretty poor last year. It sounds like it will likely be Snacks that they are pursuing and, as unpopular as it may be, I will be happy if they get Snacks in the house rather than Clowney, to more holistically complete the line. I'm aware of Snacks' fall off last year, but reading into it further shed some light on the situation in Detroit.

 

[toffee]

Our 5 techs are Green, Jackson, and Collier.

Our Leo's are Mayowa, Taylor, and Robinson with Green having enough ability to play Leo against run heavy teams.

And yes, it's all about strong side vs weak side in base defense. It's not RDE and LDE like in Madden or older, simplistic football. In pure pass rush situations, it's a bit of a different story. Irvin and Mayowa, like Avril, are more comfortable and more effective rushing from the left side and so they do so when they don't have to worry about run defense responsibilities. Taylor and Robinson, on tape, show that they can rush from either side. It sounds as though Irvin will be back to playing SLB on base downs and rush end on pass downs.

Speaking of which, I'd like to point out that Taylor is every bit the athlete that Clowney is (4.5, great vert, etc), and actually looks better at rounding a corner with power and leverage with a clearly superior center of gravity and agility than Clowney. If you want a comp for Robinson, it's definitely Clem, except Robinson is a prospect that's farther along and also a better athlete than Clem. Clem was only 240 coming out of college and it took him quite a few years to bulk up to 260 so that anyone would even consider giving him a measure of real playing time. However, Robinson plays with that very same heavy handed, aggressive playing style with a lot of angry pop.

The Hawks have already upgraded the pass rush, IMO. However, DT is much more of a severe need right now. We have basically two DTs with any measure of experience (although Jackson plays some 3T as well) and our run defense was really pretty poor last year. It sounds like it will likely be Snacks that they are pursuing and, as unpopular as it may be, I will be happy if they get Snacks in the house rather than Clowney, to more holistically complete the line. I'm aware of Snacks' fall off last year, but reading into it further shed some light on the situation in Detroit.

Green at LEO is intriguing, size and speed, does he has the skill?

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[vin.couve12]

Green had already been playing some there last year against heavy run teams. There were times when you wouldn't see Clowney on the field at all and Green at Leo and Jackson at 5T. I don't recall whether that was due to injury, rotation, or what, but I definitely remember seeing that from time to time.

Green is actually quite a good athlete. He's actually a better athlete than either of the Bosa boys in every measurement except 3 cone, for instance, all while being 10-15 pounds heavier and with a better length.

If you ask me, his growth was stunted at USC by having to play DT almost exclusively for the last year there at 20 years old. On top of that, he's still only going to be 23 this year. I'm expecting him to continue to keep getting better. When he was drafted, he still had a month to go before he was legal to buy alcohol. This is some of his stuff from last year.

https://twitter.com/byAlistairCorp/stat ... 82048?s=20

 

[vin.couve12]

Getting Kylar Murray in the open field was Uber impressive.

 

[Jville]

I feel really positive about Rasheem Green going into this ... his third year. In year 2, he recovered from his injury set back during his rookie season and began to catch up with team mates ..... finishing the season with good play.

An injury, in his rookie year, cheated us from seeing how L.J. Collier will fit. I don't know that he recovered all that completely from that ankle injury. He didn't seem to fully catch up with the scheme before the season ended. It's useful to recall that he was drafted as a projection out of a different scheme. I anticipate that field vision and grasp of scheme will be keys to his prospective role on the team.

Branden Jackson is assignment correct. He remains one of their better field tacklers. He had plenty of snaps to develop last year. But fell somewhat short of what is needed as a pass rusher. I think of him as on the bubble ...... who could surprise again this year. A trustworthy option should they lose a featured player in front of him to injury. There is always the outside chance his development could make a significant jump.

Competition and an active rotation will take care of whatever LEO roles they revert back to. They have quite a variety of prospects to sort thru. Lots of options. Should be intriguing to watch how the weak side sorts itself out.

P.S. I'll echo an appreciation for the thoughts of "Sun Tzu" and "AgentDib" and "vin.couve12" on this subject. Thoughtful posts really make good readable threads. :2thumbs: Nice topic "springscohawk"

 

[jammerhawk]

Great topic! Excellent contributions by all! Thanks guys.

Pete likes 5 tech types who can play outside in. Suspect we will see some highly motivated young players this season. We will also see Collier playing 3 tech at times along with Green and Jackson if he makes the team. The other wild card player is Irvin who will also situationally see snaps at Leo. I remain highly curious about Taylor coming off the edge. The speed added at DE and OLB should help in terms off both the pass rush and defending the stretch runs that SF likes to use.

To me the team’s depth at DE has significantly improved.

 

[springscohawk]

I still hope Clowney is added to this mix.

This would give another year for players like Collier, Taylor, Robinson, and even Green to develop.

Is there anyone on here that doesn't want Hawks to add Clowney? Does anyone think adding Clowney would interfere with Green, Collier, or others from developing?

I guess this is a post for another topic or forum as Clowney is not on the team

 

[springscohawk]

So a follow up question about defensive line would be about NT and 3-Technique defensive tackles.

I have always considered NT to be on the right side of the 3-Technique, near the LEO

Illustrated like this from left to right: 5 Tech, 3 Tech, NT, Leo. (M.Bennett, Clinton McDonald, Tony McDaniel, C Clemons)

Based upon our conversation about Leo and 5Tech a line might look like this: Leo, 3 Tech, NT, and 5 Tech.

Is it also true that NT and 3-Tech defensive tackles are flipped sometimes with NT to left of 3 Tech?

DE, NT, 3-Tech, DE ? (DE, Poona, Jarran, DE). Or. (DE, Tony McDaniel, Clinton McDonald, DE)

Also , I am aware NT is technically the wrong name for run plugging two-gapping DT in 4-3.

NT the name for DT in 3-4 line. (Jeff Bryant, Joe Nash, Jacob Green)

 

[Jville]

From play to play, offenses thru their deployment choice of personnel groups and formations dictate a defensive response and alignment.

For example, the 3 technique alignment is to the closed side (tightend side) and the nose tackle sets up on the open side when the offense deploys one inline tightend using 11 personnel and the defense responds with a 43 under.

There are a number of articles that can be found with the search words 43 defense.



Here is a Seahawks article on the subject from 2012 entitled >>> The Seahawks and the 4-3 Under Front: Winds of change? >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2013/5/31/4382318/the-seahawks-and-the-4-3-under-front-winds-of-change[/urltargetblank]

Here is another inspired by the life work of Monte Kiffin >>> [urltargetblank]https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/1/26/3917768/dallas-cowboys-inside-monte-kiffins-playbook-4-3-over-under-and-over-stem-fronts[/urltargetblank]