Malik McDowell's effect on draft considerations

[oasis]

I hope this is reasonable to put into it's own thread. If not, please put it in the other threads... but I'm just very curious about the the "no-more-red-flag-players" policy can actually play. Maybe it just results in self-inflicted mind-games, but it's fun to speculate.

Basically, I'm curious what type of head games the consequences of the M. McDowell pick had on the front office.

Maybe they can think they could do something different with Carter that they failed to do with McDowell. Like a parent trying to fix their guilt or fix their past by doing something new.

Like how much does the "no-more-red-flag-players" policy play against that "I want to fix my past perceived mistakes by turning red flags into assets... (i.e. situation of turning negative press into positive/locker room promoting chip-on-your-shoulder mentality, etc.)

The chip-on-your-shoulder mentality has been fostered here before.

Is there sufficient data to determine that it likely will or won't work again?

Would McDowell-based red flag policy be perceived as a rational deterrent from picking Carter or an emotional one?

 

[getnasty]

Do we really know of MM was a bad dude? I mean the guy got hurt in an ATV accident. I'm willing to bet hundreds of players are doing those same activities every offseason. Sure i'd rather he not be riding an ATV just like i'd rather not see DK playing in basketball games in the offseason.

I just remember MM motor being questioned which was a bigger concern to me but have no problem with them drafting him in the second.

 

[olyfan63]

Father Flanagan Pete Carroll has certainly taken in his share of troubled young orphans in his day, and been successful with many of these projects. Bruce Irvin comes to mind. I didn't process their policy change as "no red flags" but rather that they acknowledge Malik McDowell fell below their "acceptable" red flags threshold. The Hawks DID do proper due diligence on Frank Clark, IMO, and Clark was a productive player. One thing that was NEVER questioned about Clark, however, was his effort level, work habits, and motor. The concerns about Carter's work habits and motor and taking plays off might be a red flag that falls below the Hawks' current standards, despite Carter's physical attributes.

 

[oasis]

Father Flanagan Pete Carroll has certainly taken in his share of troubled young orphans in his day, and been successful with many of these projects. Bruce Irvin comes to mind. I didn't process their policy change as "no red flags" but rather that they acknowledge Malik McDowell fell below their "acceptable" red flags threshold. The Hawks DID do proper due diligence on Frank Clark, IMO, and Clark was a productive player. One thing that was NEVER questioned about Clark, however, was his effort level, work habits, and motor. The concerns about Carter's work habits and motor and taking plays off might be a red flag that falls below the Hawks' current standards, despite Carter's physical attributes.

It's so subjective though.

My point is -- even the lowest "acceptable" red flag threshold (barring mental illness) can hypothetically be turned around. Regardless of how much data is gathered, what's to prevent a counter-argument of: "Our locker room can turn their character concerns into a chip-on-shoulder situation?"

Like it feels so incredibly arbitrary to me. And this arbitrary circumstance is where self-inflicted mind games can take place, no? That's why I'm questioning any reference McDowell at all by the front office. Feels so incredibly irrelevant, other than to impose self-inflicted mind games. For this front office, should character concerns of desirable players come down to a gut call? (as opposed to an exercise of logic)

Speaking for this front office: does predictability of draft busts (in relation to character concerns) get thrown out the window entirely? Weren't there high-pick players with non-character concerns that went on to have questionable conditioning/work ethic?

 

[olyfan63]

It's so subjective though.

My point is -- even the lowest "acceptable" red flag threshold (barring mental illness) can hypothetically be turned around. Regardless of how much data is gathered, what's to prevent a counter-argument of: "Our locker room can turn their character concerns into a chip-on-shoulder situation?"

Like it feels so incredibly arbitrary to me. And this arbitrary circumstance is where self-inflicted mind games can take place, no? That's why I'm questioning any reference McDowell at all by the front office. Feels so incredibly irrelevant, other than to impose self-inflicted mind games. For this front office, should character concerns of desirable players come down to a gut call? (as opposed to an exercise of logic)

Speaking for this front office: does predictability of draft busts (in relation to character concerns) get thrown out the window entirely? Weren't there high-pick players with non-character concerns that went on to have questionable conditioning/work ethic?

I have never seen a statement where PC/JS or other Seahawks front office reps itemized the red flags of Malcolm McDowell. The Seahawks tend to be very tight-lipped about that stuff and only speak in vague generalities. So we can only guess at the totality of the red flags they recognized in hindsight for McDowell. With Frank Clark, the Seahawks dug in and vetted him thoroughly, and, IMO, made the right call from a football standpoint, despite strong objections from some quarters, over DV allegations against Clark, plus a stupid dorm boombox burglary his freshman year, which Clark completed his sentence for. As I said, Clark's work ethic, motor, and teammate character were never questioned, as far as his college history.

We (at least me) have less info about the pre-draft red flags with McDowell, and are only recently learning about the issues and concerns involving Jalen Carter. Earlier in his career, Pete Carroll over-estimated his ability to "fix" troubled young men and finally (via Percy Harvin and Brandon Marshall and Seahawks sports psych staff) learned about Cluster B personality disorders (Narcissistic PD, Borderline PD, and others) and what can and cannot be "successfully" worked with in an NFL setting.

McDowell may have been a "mental illness" situation, prior to the "ATV accident". We don't know. AFTER the "ATV Accident", clearly there was an issue of mental functioning that reached the level of mental illness including criminal behavior.

I'm pretty sure the Seahawks now screen *extensively* for personality disorders and mental illness issues in all player acquisition business, including the draft, free agency, and trades. Pete, having been burned multiple times before (including at least Harvin and McDowell, IMO), has learned his lesson, and now pays attention to psyc eval kinds of things. It's NOT a "gut call" at this point.

 

[Palmegranite]

Father Flanagan Pete Carroll has certainly taken in his share of troubled young orphans in his day, and been successful with many of these projects.

Ha ha. I'm picturing Pete as Father O'Malley, transferred from St. Dominic's Church in New York City to St Lumen's in Seattle.

Helping those wayward punks get on the straight and narrow!

 

[Ad Hawk]

I'm pretty sure the Seahawks now screen *extensively* for personality disorders and mental illness issues in all player acquisition business, including the draft, free agency, and trades. Pete, having been burned multiple times before (including at least Harvin and McDowell, IMO), has learned his lesson, and now pays attention to psyc eval kinds of things. It's NOT a "gut call" at this point.

Personally, I can certainly understand why vetting players through psych evals and the like is vital to building a solid team. Having lived with a couple family members (one immediate and one extended) with severe BPD, there is rarely a "normal" relationship with them.

But loud voices in the public square cry "(disability) discrimination!" whenever those with personality disorders are excluded.

The legal battle that could arise from making this sort of vetting known could be a PR nightmare for the NFL.

 

[olyfan63]

Personally, I can certainly understand why vetting players through psych evals and the like is vital to building a solid team. Having lived with a couple family members (one immediate and one extended) with severe BPD, there is rarely a "normal" relationship with them.

But loud voices in the public square cry "(disability) discrimination!" whenever those with personality disorders are excluded.

The legal battle that could arise from making this sort of vetting known could be a PR nightmare for the NFL.

What a treat to interact with someone who has endured BPD close relationships close-up and no doubt seen the playbook and the plays they run!

I don't think "discrimination" enters the picture in the ruthless ultra-competitive world of the NFL (players) where nobody is entitled to nuttin', and coach calls the shots based on his subjective professional assessment of players. Another variable (in the model I prefer to use, per William Eddy's "Splitting") is the degree of sociopathy, which can vary quite a bit from BPD to BPD (same for NPDs). Highly sociopathic BPDs, well, best to avoid at all costs for most normies, since they create incredible negative drama wherever they go.

The other factor is that people with Cluster B personality disorders like BPD and NPD go to GREAT LENGTHS to hide their issues from their employers and the general public; family, relationship partners, etc. bear the brunt, for the most part. Can you name even one pro athlete or celeb who has openly come out as having BPD? I can name exactly one: Brandon Marshall, Bears, Dolphins, Seahawks WR. Caitlyn Jenner "Courage" award? No, Brandon Marshall has more courage in his pinky than Jenner ever had in "her" whole body. So for a BPD or NPD to claim discrimination, first they would have to *acknowledge* their condition. Maybe more celebs than Marshall have "come out"; he's not "out", but I believe that Percy Harvin has all the traits of a BPD sociopath. Sucker-punching Golden Tate the night before SB48, grabbing his college position coach by the neck and throwing him to the ground--two telling incidents among many.

If you or others see it differently, that "discrimination" against Cluster B personality disorders BPD/NPD could be an issue, please share that scenario.

 

[scutterhawk]

Repeat offenders (not Carters first ticket for reckless driving---Habitual??) and ESPECIALLY when his second go-round has him tied to someone getting killed?
I think that's more than just a one-off red flag.

 

[olyfan63]

Repeat offenders (not Carters first ticket for reckless driving---Habitual??) and ESPECIALLY when his second go-round has him tied to someone getting killed?
I think that's more than just a one-off red flag.

Thanks for that data point, I was not aware of earlier reckless driving charge (and assuming conviction?). So Carter didn't get the message the first time, from those consequences. Does not say anything positive about him, for sure. Entitled, "rules are for other people", "I'm special and I can do whatever the F I please", etc.

 

[Maelstrom787]

It's not necessarily "no more red flag players," It's just that they severely truncate the board compared to what they used to by placing a higher emphasis on maturity and competitiveness.

I believe IIRC the board is down to around 120 draftable players since they redefined their criteria for the 2018 draft.

They're just more careful and want mature leaders on the team rather than immature dudes who don't love the game, or worse, love themselves more than the game.

The mantra is "Strong, Tough, Reliable."

 

[Maelstrom787]

Carter has red flag after red flag and I'd be surprised if he survives as the negatives mount up, but he doesn't have an effort problem on the field. Conditioning could be better, but he gives it all from snap to snap. Doesn't disappear and loaf like McDowell did.

 

[AgentDib]

Many teams strongly differentiate between character and "football character," a subset comprising things like work ethic, toughness, reliability, and leadership. I imagine that's how the Hawks look at it too, given how they tend to ignore DUIs.

They have talked about who is in charge of vetting; director of security George Englebright. He'll be the one in charge of hiring PIs and collating the information into digestible facts for the front office. He also seems like something of a fixer, as he was real quick to the scene of Geno's DUI last winter to try to smooth things over with the police. Ultimately, Englebright's reports will likely be the key factor that determines whether we take Carter at #5 or not.

 

[Ad Hawk]

What a treat to interact with someone who has endured BPD close relationships close-up and no doubt seen the playbook and the plays they run!

I don't think "discrimination" enters the picture in the ruthless ultra-competitive world of the NFL (players) where nobody is entitled to nuttin', and coach calls the shots based on his subjective professional assessment of players. Another variable (in the model I prefer to use, per William Eddy's "Splitting") is the degree of sociopathy, which can vary quite a bit from BPD to BPD (same for NPDs). Highly sociopathic BPDs, well, best to avoid at all costs for most normies, since they create incredible negative drama wherever they go.

The other factor is that people with Cluster B personality disorders like BPD and NPD go to GREAT LENGTHS to hide their issues from their employers and the general public; family, relationship partners, etc. bear the brunt, for the most part. Can you name even one pro athlete or celeb who has openly come out as having BPD? I can name exactly one: Brandon Marshall, Bears, Dolphins, Seahawks WR. Caitlyn Jenner "Courage" award? No, Brandon Marshall has more courage in his pinky than Jenner ever had in "her" whole body. So for a BPD or NPD to claim discrimination, first they would have to *acknowledge* their condition. Maybe more celebs than Marshall have "come out"; he's not "out", but I believe that Percy Harvin has all the traits of a BPD sociopath. Sucker-punching Golden Tate the night before SB48, grabbing his college position coach by the neck and throwing him to the ground--two telling incidents among many.

If you or others see it differently, that "discrimination" against Cluster B personality disorders BPD/NPD could be an issue, please share that scenario.

I think I agree with you; sorry if I was not more clear. I'm not part of the Public Square fighting the discrimination wars. You're right about them attempting to fit in at all costs; but pro sports are high-stress environments. BPDs and others cannot hide it long-term.

Persons with severe enough disorders in this cluster (or others) can severely handicap a team, destroy locker room chemistry, and cause everyone to walk on egg-shells. The problem is that as discrimination accusations fly more and more, it is inevitable this topic hits the NFL eventually.

Race has already become a significant discrimination talking point. The Rooney rule and other attempts to right both real and perceived wrongs set a standard for others who are (or feel) marginalized. What is the next social-issue facing the sport? Mental health, I would venture. the Malik McDowells and Percy Harvins will be given more sympathy and defense as they cry louder. Not a good look! I'm just prognosticating...

 

[olyfan63]

I think I agree with you; sorry if I was not more clear. I'm not part of the Public Square fighting the discrimination wars. You're right about them attempting to fit in at all costs; but pro sports are high-stress environments. BPDs and others cannot hide it long-term.

Persons with severe enough disorders in this cluster (or others) can severely handicap a team, destroy locker room chemistry, and cause everyone to walk on egg-shells. The problem is that as discrimination accusations fly more and more, it is inevitable this topic hits the NFL eventually.

Race has already become a significant discrimination talking point. The Rooney rule and other attempts to right both real and perceived wrongs set a standard for others who are (or feel) marginalized. What is the next social-issue facing the sport? Mental health, I would venture. the Malik McDowells and Percy Harvins will be given more sympathy and defense as they cry louder. Not a good look! I'm just prognosticating...

With some NPDs (Narcissists) their condition can actually be an asset in a hyper-competitive environment like the NFL, for as long as the player with NPD can back it up, and provided they aren't highly sociopathic where they are a net negative to the team. Some NFL guys I have gotten NPD vibes from over the years (emphasizing, NOT "diagnosing" just "vibes") Terrell Owens, Vince Young, Keyshawn Johnson, Chad Ochocinco, and our own Richard Sherman. Interesting those are all guys at skill positions that are involved in boom-or-bust, highly visible, hand-to-hand combat, where you have to 1000% believe you're the the best there's ever been, not for the faint of heart. Plus if they get beat on a particular play, they need to bounce back quickly, label it in their head as a fluke, and/or use the failed play to study and figure out how they're going to dominate this opponent the next play. I should also say that Bill Romanowski gives me those vibes as well.

I view the sociopathy trait ("antisocial" behavior) on a continuum and as a somewhat separate thing from the comorbid Cluster B personality disorder. Also I've directly observed that Cluster B sufferers are all over the map in terms of intelligence and overall "competence". Players like McDowell, certainly post-head-injury, and Harvin, would appear to be "high" in antisocial traits.

The Seahawks don't talk about mental health/psych eval kinds of issues publicly, but knowing how Pete Carroll rolls, I believe that over the last 5 years, since the Percy Harvin fiasco, the team has staffed up on sports psychologist and skilled psych eval practitioners to protect the Seahawks from getting fleeced like we did on the Percy Harvin trade. Pretty sure the Vikings knew full well what they were sending us in Harvin, and took advantage of Pete's naivete at the time. I also think Pete, being a practical man, observed over time that his type of team-oriented motivation, call it rah-rah or whatever, was less effective on players with certain types of psychological traits, and now avoids bringing them into the team.

It's simply a "Guess", but perhaps Malik McDowell, pre-injury, tested a bit high in "antisocial" traits and the Seahawks naively thought that would be a good thing in a D-Lineman, after all, you want your mean ol' DT to grab the RB by his jockstrap and throw him into the backfield, and to do all sorts of nasty things to the OL trying to block him and then rip the QBs head off.

All of the above is for entertainment purposes only and should not be construed as diagnosis or deemed accurate without confirmation by a board-certified MH practitioner, which I am not. However, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... certainly gives rise to reasonable speculation.

 

[morgulon1]

Father Flanagan Pete Carroll has certainly taken in his share of troubled young orphans in his day, and been successful with many of these projects. Bruce Irvin comes to mind. I didn't process their policy change as "no red flags" but rather that they acknowledge Malik McDowell fell below their "acceptable" red flags threshold. The Hawks DID do proper due diligence on Frank Clark, IMO, and Clark was a productive player. One thing that was NEVER questioned about Clark, however, was his effort level, work habits, and motor. The concerns about Carter's work habits and motor and taking plays off might be a red flag that falls below the Hawks' current standards, despite Carter's physical attributes.

I hope Seattle learns from their mistakes. You have a young man looking to get to the next level and set him and his family up for life by....

1. Getting in trouble during combine.
2. Being lazy (taking plays off)
3. Screw up his pro day
4. Put out that he wasn't willing to meet
With any teams out of top 10.

At the very least this young man is too immature, at worst he's a POS that will
be in your news feed for doing something stupid. Giving him 20+ mil
Would be his undoing . IMHO

 

[oasis]

According to the internet, Vick had work ethic issues too... Just sayin

 

[Vesuve]

I hope Seattle learns from their mistakes. You have a young man looking to get to the next level and set him and his family up for life by....

1. Getting in trouble during combine.
2. Being lazy (taking plays off)
3. Screw up his pro day
4. Put out that he wasn't willing to meet
With any teams out of top 10.

At the very least this young man is too immature, at worst he's a POS that will
be in your news feed for doing something stupid. Giving him 20+ mil
Would be his undoing . IMHO

And a large amount of guaranteed money in the contract at a pick #5.

I wouldn't tough Carter in the first round with a 10-foot pole.