Max Protect

Sgt. Largent

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Natethegreat":39fbmhxb said:
I wonder if they don't like max protection because it limits Russel's throwing lanes a lot more plus makes it harder to see. Just a thought.

No team LIKES to max protect, because it means your RB's and TE's have to stay in and block........which means your passing game is very limited.

Teams max protect because they have to, not because they want to. Nothing to do with QB vision.
 

stack600

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I have to say, there was some ugly blocking out there. But Max was quoted as saying. It was a lot of missed assignments, even on him. And with the speed of the Rams D-Line a second thinking about your assignment, instead of a second reacting to your assignment was enough to get burnt. especially on the corners with Quinn and Long. I dug the way Quinn can get around our tackle at times he was almost leaning horizontal to the ground rushing around the corner, looked like a speed skater in a turn. I have to say even Okung would have had issues getting back on pass blocking the way Quinn was lighting up McQuistan. That was just an awesome performance by a gifted DE. So I have to give the Rams credit for there gameplan. And I look at it like this we our winning with our line although ugly and putting R.W. in danger at times, But it is a good learning experience for Bowie out there at RT, The Kids got the body and the wing span to be a solid RT for a long time and he will get better with gametime. that said I want Okung and Breno back. Before R.W. gets hurt.
 

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DavidSeven":1934namx said:
I know there's been a lot of hand wringing over this last game, but we can't reinvent the wheel every week. They've been ramping up the quick passing game over the last three weeks, which everyone on .NET seemed to be pining for a month ago, and they're still trying to work out the kinks in that strategy. So, now we want to go max protect and have our receivers, who supposedly "can't get separation", outnumbered 2-1 in the secondary? We used many protection concepts against St. Louis, and their D-line was still schooling us.

The Rams D-line took our healthy O-line to the woodshed last year at C-Link, too. They're just a real tough match-up for Seattle.

No we don't need to reinvent the wheel but we should change the flat tire by now. Why the "second thinking about assignments"? Those Ram DE's weren't last minute adds to the roster we knew they were comming and When Russell see's that teams have spies assigned to him that's one player less to account for and we should have plays in place to burn them. Mike Rob's only been back a few days but by now Miller should know when to chip the DE or OLB and break his route off in the flat by now too.
 

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Good coaches exploit weakness.

Unless we can show we can deal with speed rushers and heavy pressure, we are going to get it again. Maybe not from the Bucs (who blitz often too) but certainly from anyone able to line up people that can put everyone in the box, pin their ears back and race toward the QB.

This is not a "well the Rams were just too good we will never see this again" thing. It is a problem and a roadmap on how to take us off our game.
 

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Scottemojo":wj85ni8t said:
On a handful of occasions, Zach, Mike Rob, and Lynch had blocking assignments they did very poorly on. I know that isn't max protect, but it kind of tells why we didn't go more that direction. Also, and this is my theory only, I think STL had one or two players(sometimes one on each side of the formation) who had the assignment of watching Russell, and they had immense freedom to come after if he tried to execute play action or run an option look keeper. I think a habit of max protect would have only played right into freeing those guys up to come after Russell even more, the only thing keeping those spy's honest sometimes is having to pass guard an area.

The more I watch, the more I think the biggest failure was just not putting the game on Lynch. Ride or die with Lynch. McQuistan and Bowie were getting their ass kicked, letting them do some attacking would have been a good thing, continuing to ask them to do things they just physically can't was an error. There has been an ever increasing trend of layering in offensive looks that will feature Harvin, and for the most part there has not been a lot of success with those looks because defenses don't have to play them as if Harvin is actually there. I am sure it has been good for the team to practice those looks at game speed, but in this particular game being more spread played into the hands of the Rams. A lot of the missed assignments were from those looks, and in space. The team speed of that Rams front 7 put our players at a serious disadvantage in space. Simply dialing the offense back to a focus on the run might have been enough to get the Rams out of attack mode, which would have freed up play action.

As the two teams are constructed right now, I don't think we can have anything but difficult games with Rams. Last year and this, their speed has really messed up the sync of our offense. Max protect would have done little to negate their speed advantages. in my opinion. which is worth precisely dick.

I agree with the essence of what you're saying there Scott, though DO believe that Max protect would have certainly helped. The problem that you're underlining there is something that I and others have decried all week -- Where was Marshawn Lynch in this game?

In this particular game ... and seeing that kind of pressure coming at Russell Wilson ... I would have borrowed a page out of the old Mike Holmgren playbook. That is, I would have run the snot out of the ball. One way to beat that kind of intense pressure is to run it and keep running it -- shove it down their throat. Exactly what you're saying there -- give those offensive lineman of the Hawks a chance to attack rather than be back on their heels. You pound the heck out of the ball again and again. What you're doing in employing that kind of strategy is taking the game TO the defense (going right AT them) instead of letting the Rams dictate the tone. It doesn't matter if Lynch gains 1 or 2 yards on a play ... you keep doing it again and again. By the late 3rd or 4th Quarter, those 2 yard gains suddenly become 10 yard or 20 yard gains, as the defense starts to tire. Holmgren did that consistently against strong fronts, pounding Shaun Alexander just like that, so by the 4th Quarter those opposing Defensive Lineman were tired and the gains became big ones.

How I would have utilized Max Protect is in helping to establish the run primarily ... with an occasional short to intermediate route to the TE thrown in or a short crossing route to the WR's to keep the defense thinking. It sure wouldn't have been pretty, but I believe it would have been effective and at least kept Wilson clean. Such an approach also would have made Wilson much more effective during those times when he dropped back to pass, as the Play Action Pass is an absolute joke when the defense knows you're going to pass. When you seemingly can't run (or have abandoned the run) a line like St. Louis's can simply pin their ears back and tee off.

The fact that Lynch had only 8 carries in this last game (regardless of the immediate results) is completely unacceptable IMO. I don't care if the strength of the Bucs is their run defense ... I see Seattle looking to rectify that on Sunday by handing off to Lynch early and often.
 

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HawKnPeppa":16zs7jmt said:
Tical21":16zs7jmt said:
Good teams don't run max protect. They put more guys into the routes, know their hot reads, and get rid of the ball and burn the defense.

Good teams have at least a representative NFL OL.

One of these days we'll finally put this myth to rest. No offense intended, but it's just not true. Several of the recent Super Bowl winners have had mediocre to noticeably bad O-lines, and have succeeded because of their QB's and WR's. Tical21 is right - when defenses stack 8-9 in the box like St. Louis did, it opens up enormous holes in coverage. We didn't have the experience at either QB, WR, or OC to exploit that Monday. The scheming to do it, at least, has been getting installed piecemeal all season, but we're not there yet.
 
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The one good in all of this is RW won't have to worry about spending too much money for Christmas gifts to the OL.
 

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God forbid he gets hurt if we don't fix this???

It's inevitable... he either breaks something or he gets permanent happy feet, AKA PTSD.
 

Hawks46

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brimsalabim":2ic8oeyr said:
If Miller is as you say a great blocking TE does that mean he was missing blocks against the rams by design?

There was times he was blocking Long 1 on 1 with no help. I saw a few of them where he stoned Long cold, there were other times he got pushed back. Long never really got around him, but Miller is just too light in the pants to block an athletic 275 lb Pro Bowl 4-3 End. Miller is giving up 20 lbs on the guy.

I don't have the All 22, but I didn't see Miller whiff a single block. He got beat straight up, sure, but there are *maybe* 2 other TEs in the league that can block Long like that.

I would've liked to see us go 2 TE sets and either establish the run, or PA pass out of those sets. Fisher wouldn't have had much scouting on that as we haven't run it much this season. We're currently enamored with spreading teams out because Coleman and Lynch weren't a good rushing combo (for whatever reason...Coleman sub par blocking or Lynch not trusting him), so we scrapped the I formations and went single back in 3 and 4 WR sets. We were more effective running the ball that way, but it's not a great protection scheme and they made us pay for it.

I'm also confused like most of you are. Why didn't we make adjustments? Why did this seem to take us by surprise ?
 

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Aros, you're dead on. We should have been in max protect for the last 3 games instead of watching Russell get battered. Even in the Cards game the feeling I was left with was "great that we won, Russell got yet another pounding and can't take too much more."

There's been discussion earlier on in this thread that perhaps we were in max protect, all I can say is, you should be able to tell if you are or are not in max protect. Gruden torched us all game long for the lack of help given the tackles on the outside, he sure as hell didn't think we were in max protect.

I think they may have been trusting Cable to fix it and not wanting to show him up or whatever and let the young guys learn in the fire. Time has come and gone for that. Our QB is getting killed, screw the learning opportunity for our backup turnstiles, take all 3 wideouts and replace them with additional blockers for all I care, but keep Russell alive until the playoffs. By the time the starters return Russ will be shell-shocked or on a stretcher and it's pissing me off.
 

chris98251

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I saw in a article with Unger one of the biggest issues is flat missing assignments, schemeing doesn't matter if not executed. This all goes back to coaching and repetition teaching these guys recognition and technique.
 

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Heard an interesting opinion by Hugh Millen today on KJR radio, which was that if you're having a ton of missed assignments, perhaps you need to dumb the protection schemes down so that instead of worrying about a bunch of different protections, you have 4 or 5 simple ones.

I'm not smart enough to say whether that would be the cure to all ills, just thought I'd throw it out there.
 

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Sgt. Largent":1b1azjp2 said:
Natethegreat":1b1azjp2 said:
I wonder if they don't like max protection because it limits Russel's throwing lanes a lot more plus makes it harder to see. Just a thought.

No team LIKES to max protect, because it means your RB's and TE's have to stay in and block........which means your passing game is very limited.

Teams max protect because they have to, not because they want to. Nothing to do with QB vision.

I wonder when it becomes "have to"? Is 7 sacks not enough indication the schemes they were using weren't working? Holy schmoogly moogly now the Seahawks are the 2nd worst OLine in the NFL in terms of pass protection perhaps the basic concepts of pass protection need to be revised to fit the abilities of the backups we have playing. Failing that RW will continue to be harassed and have to run for his life with similar results to last Monday night. the formula for shutting down our O has been made demonstrably clear pressure the edges keep RW in the pocket and blitz. Our Oline blocking is so freaking awful the blitz won't get picked up and RW won't be able to escape to the edges.

I agree with each of the comments questioning the inability of the OC and OLine coaching to adjust anything during the game with what was happening on the field. If that foolishness continues RW will be on the mash list soon.
 

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Hawknballs":2epzfofv said:
we aren't in max protect because we still have a game plan to execute and as long as we have the best defense in the NFL we won't be out of any games.

call it stubborn or even wrong, but they are trying to stick with what they want to do regardless of the line's issues.
All that's well and good when you have a savvy and Athletic Quarterback like Wilson at the wheel, and it's got to be disturbing to those swarming Defenses, that tally up 7 sacks, and a bunch of pass rushes, Quarterback hits, and Wilson STILL finds a way to throw for two TD's and beat them.
My biggest concern is that we've been lucky as hell, that Wilson has come through the abuse with little or no signs of physical damage, but if the Coaches don't figure out SOMETHING to diminish those sacks/HITS on Russell Wilson, I'm in fear that his luck just might run out.
I think that if players like Long, and Quinn are not going to be punished for excessive use of force, and because the referees are letting shit go way overboard with allowing it to continue un-penalized, I say screw it, maim their asses with low cut blocks, or whatever it takes to get the message back to the Officials that purposely trying to cause injury to Russell Wilson is unexceptable, and is going to be met with an intent to take that player out of the game, because after all, it's their or Wilson's career on the line.
IF Carroll isn't in control of the Offense(and I don't fully believe it), he sure as hell is in control of whomever is, and he needs to assert his authority and make Bevel/Cable to start protecting the Franchise a hell of a lot better.
 
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It certainly doesn't take professional football coaches and analysts to see what clearly we fans are seeing. Either they are not being coached good enough (continuous missed assignments and being out coached and not making the proper adjustments during the games), or they are too stubborn to abandon their "philosophies" in the face of overwhelming evidence that they need to do so due to circumstance (injuries).

Either way, they best fix it soon or this bus ain't gonna make it to the midwest let alone New York in February.
 
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