Max Unger and 1st for Jimmy Graham and 4th round pick

[Scottemojo]

Yes, but did he have 63 players with a 1 and 2 grade?

That doesn't really refute Sailor's point though. His point is that Seattle sold what is functionally a #2 pick for #1 value. And he's right. Good moneyball move by JS.

And it's not like we are banking our draft on the #63 pick, Graham basically just became our #31 selection. A player that is waaaay better than the guys who will likely be around at that point. If Graham were in this draft, even at age 28, he'd go top 15 for sure.

As far as #63, Seattle got Golden Tate around that area of the draft. Lavonte David (who I wanted so badly) went around that spot. Eddie Lacy. And so on. It's very common for fringe 1st round talent to make it to the end of round two. If Seattle is willing to draft for BPA there, they'll probably get a heck of a player.

The second tier is typically several times larger than the 1st tier, and it leaves the board differently. You can't really compare the two. The 1st tier talents get gobbled up quick in a very predictable, BPA type fashion. Many of the 2nd tier talents are non-consensus, and may fall into the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounds in some cases. Not only will Seattle have 2nd tier talents available at #63, they will likely have them available at #95 and even at the pick the Saints gave us.

The only question is if those talents fit Seattle's blueprint. They might not. But the opportunity is definitely there, especially if Seattle is willing to move picks around to target their guys.

I don't know how Graham can be our 31, which still leaves us with the net loss of a center. I see it as Unger for Graham, and a 4th for a 1st.

Truth is, I don't have a huge problem with the thinking behind the trade. What I hate is all the revising going on around here though. Unger all the sudden got shitty, and Graham lost his warts. The hole at center will be easy to fill, CUZ CABLE! and Bevell is going to be good in the red zone, CUZ GRAHAM! There is a thread filled with predictions of 800 to 1000 yards and 10-14 TDs. Never mind that Zach Miller averaged 56 passes caught per year in Oakland, and 25 in Seattle. Hell, there are predictions that he will learn to block now. Like Helfet and Wilson did, I guess.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Yup Schneider had mention that he only graded 16 players with a 1st round grade, those 16 we won't even have a chance to get, why not make a trade and get a proven player that put up points instead. If the draft is weak like Schneider had mention then we would be getting camp bodies that might all have the same grade, why get 4 guys with the same grade (and see if they can actually play in this level) when you can get an elite TE/WR right now that teams have to plan against.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Yes, but did he have 63 players with a 1 and 2 grade?

That doesn't really refute Sailor's point though. His point is that Seattle sold what is functionally a #2 pick for #1 value. And he's right. Good moneyball move by JS.

My point was that it might have been better to trade what is essentially a #1 pick where #2 value is found in this year's draft for a #2 pick where we can still get that #2 value, plus additional picks with it, possibly future years' picks, which could be higher valued than ones in this draft. That would have been a great moneyball move by JS, especially considering we essentially need to draft an entire starting offensive line.

 

[cacksman]

That being said, I'm fully confident that this could end up being a net win for Seattle. But giving up a 1st, even a late one, isn't peanuts. It's not just about the value of that pick in isolation. There are other things you can do with it (i.e. trade down and acquire more picks at better values). If New Orleans truly wouldn't have budged off a 1st, then so be it. I'm on board. I just wonder.

True, you could turn a #31 pick into a bunch of mid round picks. In fact, that's what JS always wants to do with it when he's not dealing it for a player. Both are smart ways to utilize an asset that is nowhere near as valuable in reality as it's "1st round" label makes it out to be.

But this year, Seattle has 11 or 12 picks, depending on compensatory. Turning a #31 into a bunch of mid-rounders would have less appeal this year. On top of that, it is widely considered to be a very weak draft this year.

Kearly, doing his part to fight the good fight and educating the less educated part of .NET.

 

[Sac]

We're going to play a lot of 3TE sets with Jimmy split out wide, and McCoy/Willson inside. He's a receiver.

 

[volsunghawk]

Good points brought up by Byau. Solid points on both the pros and the cons side.

Here's my real issue with it though:

We gave up 542 points value in the draft to the Saints. That's an awful lot, considering we gave up almost the only thing left about our offensive line worth anything at all. Unless we somehow come into a FA windfall, our offensive line is going to be a bunch of backups competing with a bunch of rookies we acquire in the draft. That's a scary situation to be in, great TE acquisition or not.

I'd have been much more comfortable giving up 253 by trading them our second rounder for their sixth with that trade. Yes, it's not nearly the trade value New Orleans agreed to. Which is kinda my point. We'd still have a first rounder to negotiate with and get say another second rounder and a lower rounder to use on those rookies who will be protecting our $20 million/year quarterback.

And this is why I think you're falling into the trap of being too in love with the potential represented by those draft picks instead of recognizing the reality of what Graham provides versus what Unger had been providing actually on the field. It smacks of being more interested in the drama of the draft and its associated trades than with the players that actually get taken with those picks.

I honestly don't think there is any merit to your complaint about how the point value given up in the draft equates with a worse offensive line situation. Do you think the Hawks could have drafted a guy with that 1st rounder that is so much better than who they could draft with the 4th rounder that he trumps the value provided by Graham on the field? What about our drafting history suggests that we know how to pick an O-lineman early, anyway? And how would a 1st round lineman (or 2nd round if we traded back) be any less of a rookie than a guy we get in the 4th?

And how is any of that above any different if we still had Unger? What we're looking at right now is filling 2 O-line holes instead of 1. That's the only difference. It's not like we traded the entire line, forcing us to play guys who we find working as greeters at Wal-Mart. The penciled in line right now would be Okung-Bailey-Lewis-Sweezy-Britt. That's a lineup we actually won with in 2014.

 

[Largent80]

You can argue all day about draft value. One thing you can't argue is we got one of the top 2 TE's in the game. Experienced and fits exactly what we need. Not only just because he can ball but because our TE situation was dreadful.

Now we have Graham, PLUS a 4th rounder !!!!!!!

Win.

 

[kearly]

I don't know how Graham can be our 31, which still leaves us with the net loss of a center. I see it as Unger for Graham, and a 4th for a 1st.

Truth is, I don't have a huge problem with the thinking behind the trade. What I hate is all the revising going on around here though. Unger all the sudden got shitty, and Graham lost his warts. The hole at center will be easy to fill, CUZ CABLE! and Bevell is going to be good in the red zone, CUZ GRAHAM! There is a thread filled with predictions of 800 to 1000 yards and 10-14 TDs. Never mind that Zach Miller averaged 56 passes caught per year in Oakland, and 25 in Seattle. Hell, there are predictions that he will learn to block now. Like Helfet and Wilson did, I guess.

Netters gonna net.

You don't need to hide behind that to say you don't like the trade. In the text above, you clearly argue against it. And that's fine. It's not that I don't see the logic. I just feel differently about Graham and Unger than you do.

If 2013 and 2014 never happened, I would probably feel the exact same way you do about this swap. But as things stand, I think Unger was probably one more injury away from being cut. I think he's a good player when healthy, I just think his time here was likely coming to an end regardless. For all we know, Seattle might have been shopping Unger before this deal.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

And this is why I think you're falling into the trap of being too in love with the potential represented by those draft picks instead of recognizing the reality of what Graham provides versus what Unger had been providing actually on the field. It smacks of being more interested in the drama of the draft and its associated trades than with the players that actually get taken with those picks.

I honestly don't think there is any merit to your complaint about how the point value given up in the draft equates with a worse offensive line situation. Do you think the Hawks could have drafted a guy with that 1st rounder that is so much better than who they could draft with the 4th rounder that he trumps the value provided by Graham on the field? What about our drafting history suggests that we know how to pick an O-lineman early, anyway? And how would a 1st round lineman (or 2nd round if we traded back) be any less of a rookie than a guy we get in the 4th?

And how is any of that above any different if we still had Unger? What we're looking at right now is filling 2 O-line holes instead of 1. That's the only difference. It's not like we traded the entire line, forcing us to play guys who we find working as greeters at Wal-Mart. The penciled in line right now would be Okung-Bailey-Lewis-Sweezy-Britt. That's a lineup we actually won with in 2014.

I haven't said I've wanted the Seahawks to keep that #31 overall pick--I've said it's worth more in a draft trade to acquire more picks, hopefully future picks, and/or bundling some of those lower ones to move back up into the second/third rounds. I'd rather see us pick several more times in the second-to-third round area, and fewer in the first and later rounds. That's especially so when drafting offensive linemen. We don't need a high first round pick, but we also are probably not going to find our offensive line starters in rounds four and below.

And yes, the penciled-in line of Okung-Bailey-Lewis-Sweezy-Britt was a lineup we actually won with in 2014, but we're a glass ankle or two away from starting those Wal-Mart greeters instead.

 

[theincrediblesok]

Yes, but did he have 63 players with a 1 and 2 grade?

That doesn't really refute Sailor's point though. His point is that Seattle sold what is functionally a #2 pick for #1 value. And he's right. Good moneyball move by JS.

And it's not like we are banking our draft on the #63 pick, Graham basically just became our #31 selection. A player that is waaaay better than the guys who will likely be around at that point. If Graham were in this draft, even at age 28, he'd go top 15 for sure.

As far as #63, Seattle got Golden Tate around that area of the draft. Lavonte David (who I wanted so badly) went around that spot. Eddie Lacy. And so on. It's very common for fringe 1st round talent to make it to the end of round two. If Seattle is willing to draft for BPA there, they'll probably get a heck of a player.

The second tier is typically several times larger than the 1st tier, and it leaves the board differently. You can't really compare the two. The 1st tier talents get gobbled up quick in a very predictable, BPA type fashion. Many of the 2nd tier talents are non-consensus, and may fall into the 3rd, 4th, or even 5th rounds in some cases. Not only will Seattle have 2nd tier talents available at #63, they will likely have them available at #95 and even at the pick the Saints gave us.

The only question is if those talents fit Seattle's blueprint. They might not. But the opportunity is definitely there, especially if Seattle is willing to move picks around to target their guys.

I don't know how Graham can be our 31, which still leaves us with the net loss of a center. I see it as Unger for Graham, and a 4th for a 1st.

Truth is, I don't have a huge problem with the thinking behind the trade. What I hate is all the revising going on around here though. Unger all the sudden got shitty, and Graham lost his warts. The hole at center will be easy to fill, CUZ CABLE! and Bevell is going to be good in the red zone, CUZ GRAHAM! There is a thread filled with predictions of 800 to 1000 yards and 10-14 TDs. Never mind that Zach Miller averaged 56 passes caught per year in Oakland, and 25 in Seattle. Hell, there are predictions that he will learn to block now. Like Helfet and Wilson did, I guess.

I'm waiting to see myself, I think this is why this trade made it intriguing, and it's understandable to have doubts after the Harvin debacle and the playcalling in the Superbowl.

Graham will get his touches. Look at how many times Wilson had to throw the ball away or how many times some of the players were dropping balls, instead of those Wilson can just lob it towards Graham and let him get those balls. If you look at the highlight videos of Graham and Brees you can see that Graham had to really saved his QB with some spectacular catches, this is what we were missing last year. Also with Graham I think Russell wouldn't have to run as much as he did last year.

 

[DavidSeven]

That being said, I'm fully confident that this could end up being a net win for Seattle. But giving up a 1st, even a late one, isn't peanuts. It's not just about the value of that pick in isolation. There are other things you can do with it (i.e. trade down and acquire more picks at better values). If New Orleans truly wouldn't have budged off a 1st, then so be it. I'm on board. I just wonder.

True, you could turn a #31 pick into a bunch of mid round picks. In fact, that's what JS always wants to do with it when he's not dealing it for a player. Both are smart ways to utilize an asset that is nowhere near as valuable in reality as it's "1st round" label makes it out to be.

But this year, Seattle has 11 or 12 picks, depending on compensatory. Turning a #31 into a bunch of mid-rounders would have less appeal this year. On top of that, it is widely considered to be a very weak draft this year.

Kearly, doing his part to fight the good fight and educating the less educated part of .NET.

Plenty of smart folks who have trepidation about the value of the trade and plenty of smart folks who have valid arguments in favor of the deal terms. Never black/white when you give up a high round pick for a high-money player. The Harvin deal proved that to us. Always worth discussing.

 

[kearly]

Kearly, doing his part to fight the good fight and educating the less educated part of .NET.

Thanks but... odd comment. DavidSeven is very smart.

 

[volsunghawk]

And this is why I think you're falling into the trap of being too in love with the potential represented by those draft picks instead of recognizing the reality of what Graham provides versus what Unger had been providing actually on the field. It smacks of being more interested in the drama of the draft and its associated trades than with the players that actually get taken with those picks.

I honestly don't think there is any merit to your complaint about how the point value given up in the draft equates with a worse offensive line situation. Do you think the Hawks could have drafted a guy with that 1st rounder that is so much better than who they could draft with the 4th rounder that he trumps the value provided by Graham on the field? What about our drafting history suggests that we know how to pick an O-lineman early, anyway? And how would a 1st round lineman (or 2nd round if we traded back) be any less of a rookie than a guy we get in the 4th?

And how is any of that above any different if we still had Unger? What we're looking at right now is filling 2 O-line holes instead of 1. That's the only difference. It's not like we traded the entire line, forcing us to play guys who we find working as greeters at Wal-Mart. The penciled in line right now would be Okung-Bailey-Lewis-Sweezy-Britt. That's a lineup we actually won with in 2014.

I haven't said I've wanted the Seahawks to keep that #31 overall pick--I've said it's worth more in a draft trade to acquire more picks, hopefully future picks, and/or bundling some of those lower ones to move back up into the second/third rounds. I'd rather see us pick several more times in the second-to-third round area, and fewer in the first and later rounds. That's especially so when drafting offensive linemen. We don't need a high first round pick, but we also are probably not going to find our offensive line starters in rounds four and below.

And yes, the penciled-in line of Okung-Bailey-Lewis-Sweezy-Britt was a lineup we actually won with in 2014, but we're a glass ankle or two away from starting those Wal-Mart greeters instead.

So, to sum up, you think that pick would have been more valuable used to trade down in a draft to pick rookie linemen than to secure one of the top TEs in the game.

 

[KiwiHawk]

It's a weak draft and we're never going to get anywhere near the value of Graham for #31, much less a bunch of mid-round picks.

I also disagree with the premise that if we lose Unger we have to rebuild the entire Oline. Unger missed 8 games last year, of which we lost none. Clearly we have an adequate replacement.

As to the prophecy of "what good is Graham when Wilson doesn't have time", Graham doesn't need 4 seconds to get open. He's open in 1-2 seconds. He's already open when he releases due to his vertical factor. Wilson can throw to a spot immediately, with confidence that his 6'6" target with 10-3/4" hands will come down with it.

Bevell is an interesting OC. Where our defense lines up in the same set and challenges you to beat it, Bevell always needs to create a mismatch, whether it is a personnel formation or an unexpected play ("we're passing on the 1-yard-line even though we have Lynch because surprise!"). Well, now he has mismatches all over the place, so maybe he can stop being a spaz and call a straight offense for a change.

 

[Donk70]

Has anyone heard if Graham has made a comment as of yet? I know he said goodbye to fans on Twitter, but I haven't heard him address being a Seahawk publicly.

 

[Basis4day]

Has anyone heard if Graham has made a comment as of yet? I know he said goodbye to fans on Twitter, but I haven't heard him address being a Seahawk publicly.

No. Physical is today per Schneider. Expect it after that.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

So, to sum up, you think that pick would have been more valuable used to trade down in a draft to pick rookie linemen than to secure one of the top TEs in the game.

No. To sum up, I think that pick would have been more valuable used to trade down to pick rookie linemen, while using lower picks and/or less draft capital and Max Unger to acquire one of the top TEs in the game, especially when in the process of doing so, we made the line a much greater liability than it already was.

Sure, it might not have been possible, but therein lies my trepidation at this move.

 

[Bobblehead]

Just so glad I won't see any low, wide right snaps..

 

[wizard1183]

I don't get why anyone would take a negative away from this AT ALL. Anyone who is bitching about this is off their rocker.

You do realize that Loomis is one of the worst GM's in the NFL, and Schneider is one of the best, right? This was highway freaking robbery. I feel like we just robbed poor New Orleans blind.

We just picked up the most talented receiver this franchise has ever seen, This isn't "old Jerry Rice" this is an ALL PRO talent in his prime, a guy who has a legit shot at the HoF with just a few more of his "typical" seasons!

Do you know how difficult it is to get a receiver like this? 6'7 with amazing hands? How often do those guys come around? Well, since I've been watching Seahawks football since 1976 -- oh that's right, NEVER!!!!!

Never have we been able to land a giant pro-bowl talent receiver, either through the draft or otherwise... it is the one damn thing we never had, that big red zone receiver who can catch anything thrown in his general direction. I mean, geez, our best TE's have been what? Old Charlie Young, and Mike Tice, and Miller, and freaking Jeremy Stevens???????

We just got an ALL PRO TE, someone who was rated the 10th best player in the entire NFL last year... someone who has missed 2 games in his entire career, in exchange for a beat to hell center who has missed 13 games in just the last two years and has been a liability in pass protection, and a glaring weakness in the shotgun formation.

This is a game changing talent, a franchise player on par with Wilson, Lynch, Thomas, and Sherman. We have been rich beyond our wildest dreams because we had some of those guys and now we just added another. It is INSANE and beyond belief that we were able to do this.

And here I thought that picking up a big threat like Brandon Marshall was going to be difficult, but to land Graham? Beyond my wildest dreams.

Do you realize that we have not had a pass catcher on this level since Steve Largent retired?

SMH at the hand-wringing around here. God, Pete and John have spoiled you guys so much the past few years you have completely lost touch with reality.

The worst? So you follow GMs of all teams that well? You're FOS. Loomis does very well.

Jimmy is a great pickup for you guys. But he's a bit soft. He played hurt most of this yr which equated to doing poorly. Not to mention Saints were one-dimensional with him. He was always the no. 1 "receiver" got to guy. Bree made him who he was. And the Saints dont need him. We needed a stronger O-line. I think we did well with this trade. I agree its questioning as to Max's health but he doesn't hurt whatsoever. only helps as he is a top 3 center in the league and if you look at Lynch is stats with and without Max, you'll see he ran better with Max in than out. You guys should win your division, but Lynch probably won't run for 1000+ yrs this yr. He's a beast, but he's due for a set back. And statistically, SB losers fall back in every category and no, the seahawks are not better than statistics, They are in those statistics. Yes, its history, but its very telling. Out of 7 SB losers who made it back to the SB, only 2 teams have one. The odds aren't great for you to get back and its only going to get harder as the teams begins to lose its star players. But overall I wish you the best with Jimmy. You guys needed a star player like that.

 

[volsunghawk]

So, to sum up, you think that pick would have been more valuable used to trade down in a draft to pick rookie linemen than to secure one of the top TEs in the game.

No. To sum up, I think that pick would have been more valuable used to trade down to pick rookie linemen, while using lower picks and/or less draft capital and Max Unger to acquire one of the top TEs in the game, especially when in the process of doing so, we made the line a much greater liability than it already was.

Sure, it might not have been possible, but therein lies my trepidation at this move.

Okay, I'm just going to have to disagree that losing Unger "makes the line a much greater liability." He couldn't stay healthy, his snaps had been off for what seemed like 2 years now, and that "we rushed for so much more yardage" stat with Unger is skewed by a 350 yard game against the Giants. Unger hasn't been more than average for a while now. My only trepidation at him being replaced by Lewis is whether Lewis can learn to make line calls on par with Unger.

As for the rest of the line, we still have the same NUMBER of draft picks as we had before, but one of them is 75ish spots lower. That's it. You might think magic resides in those 75ish spots, but I don't.