OL on the Fly!

[hawkfan68]

. The lone 1st rounder is Okung and much has been written about him..

Carp was 1st round.

But again he was another "Can't believe the Hawks reached" type pick. Which means he was a Cable guy, as opposed to warranting a 1st round selection.

Good point Sgt. Largent. Moffitt, while not 1st rounder, was a 3rd round pick. I'm probably too harsh on Cable but it would nice to see improvement from the line as whole (which I'm not seeing even when players are healthy) and not just one player, Sweezy who's developing into a really solid player. He's probably not as bad a coach as I make him out to be.

 

[pehawk]

Thus the "reach" consensus.

I wont ding them for a reach because they tried, desperately, to trade down.

 

[SomersetHawk]

We are #1 in rushing YPC; #2 in rushing YPG (behind only Dallas's highly praised line).

Just FYI for Cable haters.

Not a Cable hater nor lover, but playing devils advocate here, a lot of that's down to Russell's 400 yards rushing (7.6 YPC) which have predominantly come from scrambles.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Thus the "reach" consensus.

I wont ding them for a reach because they tried, desperately, to trade down.

Fair enough. I still think Pete, John and Cable get a little too clever for their own good with the O-line picks.

 

[pehawk]

Thus the "reach" consensus.

I wont ding them for a reach because they tried, desperately, to trade down.

Fair enough. I still think Pete, John and Cable get a little too clever for their own good with the O-line picks.

That's true. You could make that arguement for the WR position too. Kearses role feels more like a practice in seniority over talent.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

But IMO it's also been a detriment to the Hawks because it appears the O-line is a unit that Pete and John think they can save money and high draft picks on BECAUSE they have Cable.

Too many times they've traded down to get more picks in lieu of taking good O-lineman (and other players) because of Pete, John and Cable's track record of finding gold at the bottom of the draft. But this hasn't really worked well with the O-line.

Okung was a first-rounder, Carpenter was a first-rounder, Britt was a second-rounder, Moffitt was a third-rounder...your narrative doesn't hold up all that well on scrutiny. Neither does your "barely above average when healthy" evaluation, given that we're top of the league in rushing YPC and defending Super Bowl champions.

I cannot believe that the last six Super Bowl champions have won it all with mediocre-to-bad offensive lines and there are still people that think that those positions decide everything. It just isn't that simple.

As far as the "meh, Wilson can run, draft road-graders for OL" theory...I've thought about it once or twice. If you had to prioritize one discrete type of lineman over the other, it would make more sense to support the run given Wilson's mobility and our dependence on Lynch. But I doubt that's really what Pete/John/Cable decided. It's more likely that the board fought them. It's not as if we've been drafting all that high for the last few years.

 

[Largent80]

I cannot believe that the last six Super Bowl champions have won it all with mediocre-to-bad offensive lines and there are still people that think that those positions decide everything. It just isn't that simple.

It could also be said that there hasn't been a repeat winner of the SB in over 10 years because of o-line issues as well.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Okung was a first-rounder, Carpenter was a first-rounder, Britt was a second-rounder, Moffitt was a third-rounder...your narrative doesn't hold up all that well on scrutiny. Neither does your "barely above average when healthy" evaluation, given that we're top of the league in rushing YPC and defending Super Bowl champions..

Other than Okung, our O-line picks have been roundly criticized for being reaches, or better players available.

So my scrutiny does hold up, because none of these picks have played very well, and certainly not as well as their selection spot in the draft would dictate.

And YPC? C'mon man. That's 50% Lynch, and 25% Russell running for 400 yards. If these clowns were blocking for any other team with an immobile QB and average RB, the YPC would be terrible.

 

[XxXdragonXxX]

Our OL is made up of mid-late round picks and UDFA's? What?

Two 1st rounders (Okung, Carpenter), two 2nd rounders (Unger, Britt) and a 7th round converted DT (Sweezy).

4/5 of our starting OL were taken in the first 2 rounds.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

I cannot believe that the last six Super Bowl champions have won it all with mediocre-to-bad offensive lines and there are still people that think that those positions decide everything. It just isn't that simple.

It could also be said that there hasn't been a repeat winner of the SB in over 10 years because of o-line issues as well.

Yeah it could be said, but it would be a tremendous reach, and the last repeat winner wasn't chalked up to the O-line.

 

[Largent80]

Ok Montana, lets just line Wilson up with a center and hike it. That's all we need, right?

Then we could have 7 wr's...but no time to throw.

Same thing we have now but with a "whole" line. You always seem to think o-line as an afterthought, and it has been proven over and over that it is NOT an afterthought.

 

[kearly]

We are #1 in rushing YPC; #2 in rushing YPG (behind only Dallas's highly praised line).

Just FYI for Cable haters.

Adding to that, Seattle is #12 in FO's all inclusive run blocking ratings (they were MUCH higher before the injuries started hitting them hard), and #17 in pass protection. Even with all the injuries, Seattle has had a slightly above average OL this season.

 

[XxXdragonXxX]

We are #1 in rushing YPC; #2 in rushing YPG (behind only Dallas's highly praised line).

Just FYI for Cable haters.

Where are we in rushing yards if you don't include all the times Wilson scrambled to save his life because the pass protection broke down?

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Some of y'all are just a bunch of Captain Hindsights.

Cable has done well with what he's had to work with.

Is it his fault the franchise LT getting paid $58 million can't stay healthy?

Is it his fault his All-Pro C getting paid 25+ million can't stay healthy?

You guys talk trash on Carpenter but who knows how good he would be if he didn't have to struggle through two consecutive injury setbacks that hindered his progress and derailed his ability to condition and workout over the off-season. Is that Cable's fault that he couldn't coach up a player that couldn't get on the field?

Moffitt was a bust yeah. But he was a highly regarded OG/C prospect and frankly other than the the first 3 linemen chosen, the rest of that 2011 draft is sprayed with hit and miss prospects. And way more misses than hits. But its not Cable's fault that Moffitt lost his passion and drive to play football. Who knows if he was a little more committed and a little more serious about being a Professional athlete, he wouldn't have lost his job to a DT convert like Sweezy.

Speaking of Sweezy this is where Cable has been making his money taking 7th rounders, UDFAs, and bargain basement FAs like:

Sweezy (7th '12)
Schilling (Futures Contract FA '14)
Bailey (UDFA '13)
Gilliam (UDFA '14)
JeanPierre (Futures Contract FA '11)
McQuistan (FA '11, was out of football 10')
Giacomini (Packers PS)
Bowie (7th '13)
Omiyale (FA '12)

And turning them into Serviceable Players, some Solid Starting material linemen.

But its not his fault that his best O-Linemen can't stay healthy and the linemen he chose in 2011 both had issues that really wasn't a product of his coaching.

Furthermore, it also hurts when perhaps the most important piece to your philosophy in Zach Miller also can't stay healthy andon the field the last two seasons. There was a reason why Miller signed for 35+ million and him not being on the field hurts the overall product. Furthermore, losing an experienced well-rounded player like Anthony McCoy in those same two seasons doesn't help it either.

It just sucks... Cable certainly isn't a godsend and perhaps his system is a little tough and rough, but he can't control the health and fitness level of his players. What he can control though, he's certainly has done a great job coaching up a plethora of low level players.

IF YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ALREADY WHAT IT WAS LIKE:

FROM 2008-2010

THEN YOU NEED TO REMEMBER

 

[Largent80]

^ Love that passion, but not in a manly way....... :179417: ..... :lol:

However it is the truth. Remember, we got Solari who was supposed to just turn a crap o-line into gold....Oop's , didn't happen. Even had Gibbs for a short time.

Whatever, here we have an o-line coach that was a former head coach. A great asset to me on any team.

 

[DavidSeven]

Not a Cable hater nor lover, but playing devils advocate here, a lot of that's down to Russell's 400 yards rushing (7.6 YPC) which have predominantly come from scrambles.

Where are we in rushing yards if you don't include all the times Wilson scrambled to save his life because the pass protection broke down?

If you take out all Wilson's runs, the team is still above-average in YPC. That being said, many of Wilson's rush yards are also on read-option keepers, which technically are called running plays.

No, I don't think Seattle's OL is actually the #1 or #2 run-blocking OL in the league. That being said, I think they've been mostly average-to-above-average this year. Better on runs, obviously, but not terrible in the pass either (kearly's FO stats back that up). I definitely think protection and run blocking were way bigger issues last year when we won the Super Bowl.

The only major issue I have with the line is on pre-snap penalties, which some teams can overcome, but which amount to automatic drive killers for us. Wouldn't be as big of an issue if we had the personnel to convert on 3rd-and-long with some regularity.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The only major issue I have with the line is on pre-snap penalties, which some teams can overcome, but which amount to automatic drive killers for us. Wouldn't be as big of an issue if we had the personnel to convert on 3rd-and-long with some regularity.

I'd add pass protection.

Some of these pass protection stats people are throwing out are skewed because Russell is awesome at avoiding sacks. I can almost guarantee we'd be bottom 5 in pass protection if Russell wasn't..............Russell.

 

[XxXdragonXxX]

Not a Cable hater nor lover, but playing devils advocate here, a lot of that's down to Russell's 400 yards rushing (7.6 YPC) which have predominantly come from scrambles.

Where are we in rushing yards if you don't include all the times Wilson scrambled to save his life because the pass protection broke down?

If you take out all Wilson's runs, the team is still above-average in YPC. That being said, many of Wilson's rush yards are also on read-option keepers, which technically are called running plays.

No, I don't think Seattle's OL is actually the #1 or #2 run-blocking OL in the league. That being said, I think they've been mostly average-to-above-average this year. Better on runs, obviously, but not terrible in the pass either (kearly's FO stats back that up). I definitely think protection and run blocking were way bigger issues last year when we won the Super Bowl.

The only major issue I have with the line is on pre-snap penalties, which some teams can overcome, but which amount to automatic drive killers for us. Wouldn't be as big of an issue if we had the personnel to convert on 3rd-and-long with some regularity.

And where would we be if we didn't have the #1 running back in the NFL in yards after contact?


Point is, stats are misleading. Watching Russell run for his life every game and get positive plays, and Marshawn get hit in the backfield half the time only to break tackles and make something out of nothing tells me a completely different story than FO's blocking stats.

 

[DavidSeven]

The only major issue I have with the line is on pre-snap penalties, which some teams can overcome, but which amount to automatic drive killers for us. Wouldn't be as big of an issue if we had the personnel to convert on 3rd-and-long with some regularity.

I'd add pass protection.

Some of these pass protection stats people are throwing out are skewed because Russell is awesome at avoiding sacks. I can almost guarantee we'd be bottom 5 in pass protection if Russell wasn't..............Russell.

Protecting for Russell is a double edged sword. He avoids a lot of pressure, but he also causes a lot of it by holding the ball and shifting behind the pocket longer than almost any other QB. He also invites a lot of blitzing because he's struggled against it in the past.

Last year, Russell was a top 3 sacked QB. This year, he's around #16. I don't think that shift is entirely about his own elusiveness. The protection is better this year (though still not elite or anything). Some probably also has to do with him using more short throws -- dump offs to RBs, bubble screens, etc. That being said, if you look at the numbers, there are other QBs who are getting hit a lot more, some of whom are also very elusive (Kaepernick, Newton, Rodgers, etc.).

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Ok Montana, lets just line Wilson up with a center and hike it. That's all we need, right?

You laugh. There were a lot of plays in NFL playbooks that require only half a second's chip from the lineman. Of course you can't run a sustainable offense without an O-line, but nor is EVERYTHING on the O-line to the extent that some feel.

And again...for those demanding top-round draft treatment for the O-line all the time...I'll remind y'all again that this FO has already done just that. The result is what we have now, and people want them gone. How do you know we won't just end up in this situation again?

Then we could have 7 wr's...but no time to throw.

Same thing we have now but with a "whole" line. You always seem to think o-line as an afterthought, and it has been proven over and over that it is NOT an afterthought.

I never said it was an afterthought, so quit putting words in my mouth.

The last six Super Bowl winners have won it all with standard-to-bad offensive lines. Peyton Manning's line immediately looked terrible the moment he left, without significant personnel changes. Matt Schaub brought immediate improvement to the offensive line that had "failed" David Carr, whereas Carr's sack ratio followed him his entire career.

These things, to me, constitute an enormous hole blown in the simplistic fan/announcer mantra that everything starts in the trenches. It's highly reductive and it's so pervasive and just loud that it drowns out every other nuance in the game. Much less discussion is given in most circles (this forum, for instance) to the role of a #1 wide receiver or a shifty tight end in getting open and enabling QBs to throw quicker, thus making the O-line look good. Or a running back who can't remember or execute his blocking assignment, thus making his O-line look bad. Or the role of a QB or center to making line reads or shifting protections. Or the offensive coordinator's role in designing hot routes against six-man blitzes. Or whether a QB can actually do his job - learn the offense, make good reads, throw decisive and accurate passes, handle pressure and not run himself into it (or out of it prematurely, which Russell Wilson does a handful of times every game these days).

When you look at all those factors, it leaves the offensive line looking like just another blade in the swiss army knife. Valuable, necessary, but not everything.