Pete Carroll chose philosophy over Wilson

[TwistedHusky]

Popeye,

First: No way on the Montana/Young comment....might be a Hawk fan but cannot let that slide.

I watched Joe Montana with the freaking KC Chiefs (and only one good WR) beat one of the best NFL teams I ever saw.

It was an Oilers team that stomped Dallas in the preseason (yeah I know preseason but they played that different then and Houston vs Dallas was a big deal) and basically stomped most of the NFL in the regular season.

Montana literally won that game himself almost, at least on offense. So I don't agree that Montana was just very good. And the rules were a lot more difficult then, you could not throw away the ball and the secondary could basically mug guys back then.

Young looked both amazing and terrible in Tampa Bay but he was pretty damn good even then.




But if a truly great coordinator can make a good QB look great (and I agree) then what do we say about a coordinator that makes your very very good QB look like utter crap?

 

[Seymour]

Carroll is already gone. He knows it. Allen is searching for a new coach as we speak. Gotta get the feelers out to the college guys early.

Is this speculation or do you have a link to this information?

 

[Popeyejones]

But if a truly great coordinator can make a good QB look great (and I agree) then what do we say about a coordinator that makes your very very good QB look like utter crap?

It's a great question, particularly now that he has had two coordinators. I think it's one of two things:

(1) Wilson isn't as good as we think he is.

(2) Wilson is a very high variance very good but not great QB.

As you know my suspicision is that it's #2. Basically what that means is that it doesn't really matter which coordinator you pair Wilson with (save for a truly great coordinator who can make a lump look good), for a very good QB he's gonna look like utter crap more often than other very good QBs and he's gonna look like a truly great QB (even with the deck stacked against him) more regularly than other very good QBs sometimes too.

Basically, Russell Wilson is like an A-List Ryan Fitzpatrick, and Ryan Fitzpatrick is like a D-list Russell Wilson.

 

[Uncle Si]

Carroll is already gone. He knows it. Allen is searching for a new coach as we speak. Gotta get the feelers out to the college guys early.

Is this speculation or do you have a link to this information?

Not your best work to be honest

 

[TwistedHusky]

Popeye,

1 and 2 can both be right. Wilson not being great does not mean he cannot be very good.

Also on point #2, most of the 'high variance' is on plays he creates outside of the playbook. It makes sense those plays would be high variance.

It also makes sense that if your HC had some masturbatory obsession with Boom/Bust plays - your production would be high variance because that is the primary offense you are allowed to run.

Neither means you cannot be effective in an offense that is more structured. And in fact, in 2015, we had a quick strike, near pass first offense that worked tremendously well. It was the abandoning of it in the playoffs that killed us.

Measuring Wilson by his production ignores the fact that he has produced with different approaches while having to overcome many impediments to his success, some of which were his own coaching staff. He still continued to produce in reasonable #s (but for TDs per possession and RZ %) until this year.

 

[mrt144]

Popeye,

1 and 2 can both be right. Wilson not being great does not mean he cannot be very good.

Also on point #2, most of the 'high variance' is on plays he creates outside of the playbook. It makes sense those plays would be high variance.

It also makes sense that if your HC had some masturbatory obsession with Boom/Bust plays - your production would be high variance because that is the primary offense you are allowed to run.

Neither means you cannot be effective in an offense that is more structured. And in fact, in 2015, we had a quick strike, near pass first offense that worked tremendously well. It was the abandoning of it in the playoffs that killed us.

Measuring Wilson by his production ignores the fact that he has produced with different approaches while having to overcome many impediments to his success, some of which were his own coaching staff. He still continued to produce in reasonable #s (but for TDs per possession and RZ %) until this year.

:lol: I am dying over here.

 

[massari]

What were they doing different in 2015 when the the offense was rolling, and why have they not gone back to that as of 2018? :hmmmm:

 

[HansGruber]

There's also really only one thing that differentiates the best QBs from simply very good QBs, and that's that the best QBs make offensive skill players and coordinators around them look better than they are, whereas the simply very good QBs have performance that ebbs and flows as based on the offensive skill players and coordinators around them.

I seriously can't think of a single offensive player (be it RB, WR, TE or OL) who looked as good not playing with Rodgers, Brees, Brady, or Peyton Manning as they looked playing with those guys. Everyone also knows that Mike McCarthy is a below average coach and offensive coordinator, but it doesn't matter, because Aaron Rodgers makes him look much better than he is.
.

What about the QBs who improved with new teams? Drew Brees is a good example.

While in San Diego, Brees looked just as inconsistent as Wilson does right now. Then he goes to NO, wins a Superbowl, goes all-pro, etc. He's been far better in NO than he ever was in SD.

Cunningham, Plummer, Gannon, Testaverde, Plunkett, and Fran Tarkenton (who Wilson has been compared to) all improved with new teams.

 

[mrt144]

There's also really only one thing that differentiates the best QBs from simply very good QBs, and that's that the best QBs make offensive skill players and coordinators around them look better than they are, whereas the simply very good QBs have performance that ebbs and flows as based on the offensive skill players and coordinators around them.

I seriously can't think of a single offensive player (be it RB, WR, TE or OL) who looked as good not playing with Rodgers, Brees, Brady, or Peyton Manning as they looked playing with those guys. Everyone also knows that Mike McCarthy is a below average coach and offensive coordinator, but it doesn't matter, because Aaron Rodgers makes him look much better than he is.
.

What about the QBs who improved with new teams? Drew Brees is a good example.

While in San Diego, Brees looked just as inconsistent as Wilson does right now. Then he goes to NO, wins a Superbowl, goes all-pro, etc. He's been far better in NO than he ever was in SD.

Cunningham, Plummer, Gannon, Testaverde, Plunkett, and Fran Tarkenton (who Wilson has been compared to) all improved with new teams.

FWIW though, the Saints have seemingly always tried to support Drew and what he can do more than any other part of the team. Which doesn't diminish Drew's performance in my eyes - hey, he really does well with the added leverage - but does diminish the enterprise of team performance to me.

It's kind of why I disbelieve the notion that Brady, Rodgers, Brees or whoever could make it work in Seattle right now in this moment. The team simply isn't built around that kind of QB talent - to protect, to enhance, to schematically smooth out variance by playing routes off of routes off of routes. There is barely anything I can grab on to that resembles the goings on with any of the premier offensive players (or offenses themselves) elsewhere as to what's happening here. And maybe that's a chicken and egg scenario with RW as QB but man, the coaching staff just seems opposed to their core to even dip a toe in the seeming future of football.

This just doesn't look like an offense that anyone could do 'well' in because it looks confused and tentative in what it wants to do. And could you imagine any of the guys who have earned their place at the pantheon of QBs leaving their situations to come into this? I can't. What would any QB with bonafides have to gain coming into the Seahawks offensive situation?

 

[GeekHawk]

Yup. New OC has been here two games and the fact that it isn't a well-oiled machine means everybody on the 53-man roster, all the coaches, and the entire front office is shit and must be immediately flushed.

There. I added some hyperbole of my own on the order of what I'm reading in this forum. Holy Christ people, get a grip.

 

[mrt144]

Yup. New OC has been here two games and the fact that it isn't a well-oiled machine means everybody on the 53-man roster, all the coaches, and the entire front office is shit and must be immediately flushed.

There. I added some hyperbole of my own on the order of what I'm reading in this forum. Holy Christ people, get a grip.

It's the same machine dude. The same machine!

 

[TwistedHusky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GalRsMTVvek

Start at 5:22

"They made a very odd decision. Which is to rebuild during the prime of a hall of fame QB's career.

I've never seen it done intentionally. I am not sure why they made this decision. I don't see a precedent for a decision like this"

Also bonus on our OC:

"They made Brian Schottenheimer the Offensive Coordinator after his illustrious stint as the offensive coordinator for those great Jets' offenses (background laughter) and Rams' offenses"

Clearly, the truth is just that Wilson is just trying too hard.

All of us Seattle fans know this to be true.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GalRsMTVvek

Start at 5:22

"They made a very odd decision. Which is to rebuild during the prime of a hall of fame QB's career.

I've never seen it done intentionally. I am not sure why they made this decision. I don't see a precedent for a decision like this"

Also bonus on our OC:

"They made Brian Schottenheimer the Offensive Coordinator after his illustrious stint as the offensive coordinator for those great Jets' offenses (background laughter) and Rams' offenses"

Clearly, the truth is just that Wilson is just trying too hard.

All of us Seattle fans know this to be true.

And Russell has to try hard and turn lead into gold because he's given absolutely nothing. Not given an O-Line, has one true weapon in the form of Doug Baldwin, a group of TE's that are either not playing due to injury (Dickerson) or are unproven though Dissly does show promise in just his last few games. The fact is with him they probably won't even design plays for him despite the fact that he's been pretty stellar in areas other than blocking, but knowing Pete he doesn't create plays that best suit his playmakers but suit his style of football.

 

[Fade]

Yup. New OC has been here two games and the fact that it isn't a well-oiled machine means everybody on the 53-man roster, all the coaches, and the entire front office is shit and must be immediately flushed.

There. I added some hyperbole of my own on the order of what I'm reading in this forum. Holy Christ people, get a grip.

Pete Carroll swapping out sock puppets off of his hand has left people very worried about this franchise's future, no doubt.

Unless Pete relents, and lets Wilson spread the field, play with tempo, and fully command the offense, it is going to continue.

 

[West TX Hawk]

“I do not think much of a man who is not wiser today than he was yesterday.” - Abraham Lincoln

But alas, at least Carroll is Winning Forever in his mind.