Pete Carroll vs. Mike Holmgren

[hawksfansinceday1]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here

A lot faster because he had a better starting point. Even with that advantage, Carroll has only had two wining seasons here, including this one. Carroll has converted me, I didn't like him being hired originally. But seriously if you're going to crown Carroll as the best Seahawks Coach let's see what he does over a ten year period to make it comparable with Holmgren.

I respectfully disagree on Pete Carroll "had a better starting point".

Holmgren's first four seasons were 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002.
Carroll's first four seasons were: 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013

Two seasons prior to Mike Holmgren taking over, the Seahawks' record under Dennis Erickson's
1997: 8-8
1998: 8-8

Two seasons prior to Pete Carroll taking over, the Seahawks' record under Mike Holmgren's and Jim Mora's were:
2008: 4-12
2009: 5-11

You just can't say that Carroll had better starting point or advantage over Holmgren. I would argue that Carroll inherited a much bigger mess than Holmgren did. Due to circumstances, I didn't have any exposure to football at the time so I don't know what kind of team, personnel wise, the Seahawks were in 1997 and 1998. But when Pete Carroll took over in 2010 the Seahawks were an aged team on a downward spiral.

The Seahawks' record under Holmgren's first four seasons are:
1999: 9-7. Finished 1st place in the division but lost at home in the playoffs to Dan Marino and the Dolphins.
2000: 6-10. Finished 4th place, no playoffs.
2001: 9-7. Finished 2nd place, narrowly missed the playoffs.
2002: 7-9. Finished 2nd place, no playoffs.

So in Holmgren's first four years, he complied a 31-33 regular season record and 0-1 playoffs record with 1 divisional crown.

The Seahawks' record under Carroll's first four seasons are:
2010: 7-9. Finished 1st place in the division, 1-1 in the playoffs.
2011: 7-9. Finished 3rd place in the division.
2012: 11-5. Finished 2nd place in the division, 1-1 in the playoffs.
2013: 13-3. Finished 1st place in the division, playoffs record TBD.

So in Carroll's first four years, he compiled a 38-26 regular season record, 2 divisional crowns, 3 playoffs appearances and 3 playoffs wins so far. Not only Carroll rebuilds much faster than Holmgren, he has more playoffs appearances, better regular season AND playoffs records, too.

IMHO, while Mike Holmgren can build the Seahawks' offense, the defense leaves a lot to be desired. I remember those days where the Seahawks had the tendency to have the opposing teams mount 4th quarter comback, not the Russell Wilson era where the Seahawks are the comeback kids. While Holmgren's a fine coach, and NFL Hall of Fame worthy in my opinion, he's not fit to be in the front office making personnel decisions. Pete Carroll, on the other hand, excels in both roles.

Holmgren found the Seahawks franchise QB in Matt Hasselbeck in his third season (2001) but Matt Hasselbeck struggled his first two years. Not until his third year (2003) that he cements his position. Like Holmgren, Carroll found his franchise QB in Russell Wilson in his third year. But unlike Matt Hasselbeck, Russell Wilson is a probowl QB in his first two seasons. Awesome to the 12th power!

While I still love Mike Holmgren and greatly appreciate what he had done for the Seahawks, the fan base and the Seattle community in general, I fully believe that in time Pete Carroll will be the best head coach the Seahawks ever had. So far, within the same time frame, Pete Carroll has done a much better job. While Holmgren's teams are known for being finesse and disciplined, they didn't carry as much intimidation as Carroll's teams. Carroll's Seahawks of the last 2 years actually put fear into their opponents while Holmgren's teams, if my memory serves me correctly, never really did.

Great post, factually based and all that. Thanks for the research.

akseahawkfan: even before the Superb Owl victory, your personal bias against Pete was clouding your judgment of him.

 

[hawks4thewin]

well.. Pete is my fav... someone should poll it..
he brought us something no other coach in seahawk history has...
A RING !

 

[hawk45]

Holmgren's teams struggle to finish third in the NFCW for all but 05, and even then who knows how that finesse offense performs against the monster Ds we face all year. Pete's the man.

 

[DavidSeven]

They were both great coaches, but Carroll faced tougher competition and has had more success. He also started with less talent. I don't see how you can argue against him.

Both are going to go down as great coaches in NFL history, but Pete's got a chance to enter greatest-of-era territory if he can win one or two more.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Great post, factually based and all that. Thanks for the research.

akseahawkfan: even before the Superb Owl victory, your personal bias against Pete was clouding your judgment of him.

Thanks for the compliment.

As I mentioned I like Mike Holmgren a lot. One thing about him that ticks me the most, up until today, was that he just could not put together a defense whatsoever. He went through many different DC's for that reason. Not until Lofa Tatupu came along in 2005 that the Seahawks finally had a permanent anchor at the MLB. In Holmgren's first 6 years, he had a different mike, no pun intended, every year. That's not how you build a defense.

With the Seahawks' first Lombardi Trophy this year, Pete Carroll officially become the best head coach the Hawks ever had. Simply amazing.

 

[WestcoastSteve]

Holmy greatly benefited from a horrendous division and had no plan for the defense. His greatest achievement was developing Matt Hasselback into an above average NFL QB.

Pete has a plan for everything. Every aspect of the team is built in Carroll's image.

Other than developing QBs, Holmy is inferior to Pete as a head coach. Remember Holmgren was given the full carte blanche when he got here - and couldn't draft worth a damn.

Sad but true, I loved Holmgren because he got over the hump that Erickson couldn't get over but he never took the team anywhere close to the Super Bowl after 2005.

Holmgren's biggest problem was that you never felt they could win a big game on the road. Every year they would win the NFC west win a home game then lose on the road. It got old after a while.

Holmgren had Joey Galloway, a fantastic deep threat, which he drove away from the team.

Joey didn't fit the WCO and don't forget Holmgren fleeced the Cowboys for two first round picks. That one worked out pretty well.

 

[SuperFreak]

Holmgren was a personnel nightmare, remember he was given all the keys to the castle when hired. He took over a team much like the 49er team that Harbaugh inherited. Loads of talent lacking discipline. What did Holgren do with it........ here are some of my favorites

Replace QB Jon Kitna with his own "hand picked" guys. He traded for Glenn Foley who couldn't beat out Kitna, drafted Huard who he gave the job to, only to have to put Kitna back in after Huard was injured (Kitna outplayed him by the way), finally trading for Hass and signing Dilfer.

Traded away Ahman Green (who as stated already lead the league in rushing) for CB Fred Vinson who I don't think every played a down for the 'Hawks.

Kept DE Sinclair and let DE McCrary go. McCrary had a nice run with the Ravens, Sinclair out of the league after being diagnosed with diabetes.

Kept a wore out Cortez and let Sam Adams go at DT.

Drafted Hutch (nice pick) only to let Pete Kendall go the same off season. Too many draft day FUBAR's to even list i.e. Lamar King

I agree Kitna got them to the playoffs that first season in 1999 a home game that the Dolphins were able to win, but had Mike stuck it out with Jon as our QB we probably don't have to wait until the 2003 season to get back into the playoffs.

He spent draft capital to land Hasselbeck who took three seasons to come into his own, you'd think for a guy that Mike wanted so bad that already knew his system and he would have not lost his starting job to Dilfer in those early years.

Compare that to Pete who brought in Whitehurrst, Porter, Jackson, Flynn and Wilson and let them compete to earn the job instead " hand picked " guys. Had Hasselbeck wanted to compete for the job Pete would have given him the chance. I don't feel Kitna was ever going to be the long term QB for Holmgren no matter how well he played.

Anyhow it's Pete by a mile best Seahawks coach ever.

 

[BlueTalon]

akseahawkfan: even before the Superb Owl victory, your personal bias against Pete was clouding your judgment of him.

In fairness, his post was written before the Super Bowl -- before we had even played the NFCCG, for that matter.

Not that I agreed with him. I was rather flabbergasted that someone would try to make that point, but making it three weeks ago is different than making it now.

 

[Seanhawk]

akseahawkfan: even before the Superb Owl victory, your personal bias against Pete was clouding your judgment of him.

In fairness, his post was written before the Super Bowl -- before we had even played the NFCCG, for that matter.

Not that I agreed with him. I was rather flabbergasted that someone would try to make that point, but making it three weeks ago is different than making it now.

Except for the fact that he said winning the Super Bowl would not help the argument for Pete.

 

[warden]

Both coaches went to the playoffs in year one. It wasn't till year 5 before Holmgren returned, Carrol returned in year 3.

Both Coaches won the division in year one. I wasn't until year 6 that Holmgren won another Division title, Something Carroll repeated in year 4.

It was not until year seven when Holmgren won his first playoff game. Something Pet did in year one and again in year 3 and many more times in year 4

Holmgren had never won a playoff game in ten years with a Seahawks. Carroll has.

Holmgren never had a top ten defense (total yards) in his 10 years as a Seahawk coach. Carrol has done that 3 years in a row.

Except for year one Carroll has played in a much tougher division then Holgrem. Most of Holmgrens division titles came in a very weak division

Carroll has more playoff wins in his 4 years as a Seahawk coach then Holmgren had in ten years.

Holmgren has never had back to back double digit win seasons in his ten years, Carroll has

Carroll has never gone one and done in his playoff appearances, Holmgren has 3 times.

Holmgren started out with more talent then Carroll. Walter Jones, Shawn Springs, Chad Brown, Joey Galloway, Sam Adams, Michael Sinclair, Cortez Kennedy, Pete Kendall, Mack Strong

Holmgrens teams where soft, Carroll's teams are physical


I could go on and on