Pete or Holmgren

[Fade]

People say that Wilson would not have been drafted or given a chance with Holmgren, just one name Seneca Wallace, he was given a lot of chances, and if Wilson performed how he performed his first pre season before I think we would have seen him start. The real Key is how would Wilson react to a more volatile coach? Would he rise up with more fire or crumble beneath Mikes strong personality and QB coaching style. The difference between Flynn and Wilson was so obvious Mike would have seen it easily.

No. Mike would've cut his young outstanding & cheap defense, and kept RW on the bench behind Flynn for eternity. /s

LMAO.

It may be hard for some to accept, but Holmgren would've been amazing with John Schneider & Russell Wilson.

John Schneider being his Ron Wolf, and Russell Wilson being his Brett Favre. With a young cheap defense.

HOLMGREN would win a lot of games with that group, and at least a couple of Superbowls, if not more.

Nope, Holmgren has already admitted that he wouldn't have allowed Russell Wilson to be Drafted, as he was too short, and his scrambling (like Bret Favre) would have set off alarms, so he'd have told Schneider not only no, but hell no.

Nope, In my scenario he inherits Russell Wilson. He is already on the roster.

THE SAME GROUP OF PLAYERS. Holmy wins more. How hard is that to understand. Holmy isn't the GM. Give him the same crew of players.

*EDIT* I love how the responses are tacitly admitting Holmgren is the better coach by trying to deflect over to personnel decisions. Holmgren had no personnel power then 2nd half of his reign. That is why Hutch got away.

 

[mrt144]

People say that Wilson would not have been drafted or given a chance with Holmgren, just one name Seneca Wallace, he was given a lot of chances, and if Wilson performed how he performed his first pre season before I think we would have seen him start. The real Key is how would Wilson react to a more volatile coach? Would he rise up with more fire or crumble beneath Mikes strong personality and QB coaching style. The difference between Flynn and Wilson was so obvious Mike would have seen it easily.

No. Mike would've cut his young outstanding & cheap defense, and kept RW on the bench behind Flynn for eternity. /s

LMAO.

It may be hard for some to accept, but Holmgren would've been amazing with John Schneider & Russell Wilson.

John Schneider being his Ron Wolf, and Russell Wilson being his Brett Favre. With a young cheap defense.

HOLMGREN would win a lot of games with that group, and at least a couple of Superbowls, if not more.

Nope, Holmgren has already admitted that he wouldn't have allowed Russell Wilson to be Drafted, as he was too short, and his scrambling (like Bret Favre) would have set off alarms, so he'd have told Schneider not only no, but hell no.

Nope, In my scenario he inherits Russell Wilson. He is already on the roster.

And that doesn't change the rebuttal, does it? Even if he inherited Wilson would he put up with him? Many replies have argued that no, RW wouldn't start because of dogma.

 

[Chapow]

Holmgren had no personnel power then 2nd half of his reign.

If you truly believe that, you are even more naive than your posts in this thread make you seem.

Did he have the only say in personnel decisions? No, but that is a far cry from no say at all.

 

[Chapow]

THE SAME GROUP OF PLAYERS. Holmy wins more. How hard is that to understand. Holmy isn't the GM. Give him the same crew of players.

Here, I'll try this again.

You want Carroll/Schneider to construct and architect those teams, and then turn the reigns over to a coach who never would have assembled that talent in the first place.

Bingo

And even in the fantasy land where Holmgren does come in and take over the team that PC/JS built, does that same group of players still become one of the best defenses in NFL history without Pete's tutelage? Because I highly doubt it.

That's right. Carroll hasn't done anything without Dan Quinn as his DC. Dan Quinn took over the floundering Falcons, and got them back into the Superbowl.

We had the #1 scoring D in the NFL in 2012. Dan Quinn became our DC in 2013. Dan Quinn took a over a defense that was already the best in the league.

You are assuming THE SAME GROUP OF PLAYERS still becomes one of the best defenses in NFL history with completely different coaching, different philosophy, different design, etc. It would almost certainly not work out that way.

How hard is that to understand?

 

[Fade]

Holmgren had no personnel power then 2nd half of his reign.

If you truly believe that, you are even more naive than your posts in this thread make you seem.

Did he have the only say in personnel decisions? No, but that is a far cry from no say at all.

Explain Hutchinson.

 

[chris98251]

Let's try this then. If Pete took over the 2004 team does he win a Super bowl and if Mike took over the 2013 team would he keep Wilson and win a Super bowl.

 

[THE TABS]

On the sidelines it’s pretty close. They’re both gurus on opposite sides of the ball, and both are poor game managers.

As executives, Pete in a landslide. Much, much better talent evaluator.

 

[Hawkstorian]

Yep. The team that Holmgren inherited from Erickson was pretty poor too with the exception of Galloway and Springs. But Holmgren was a terrible GM. I know this thread is more focused on who's the better coach, but Holmgren had to get that GM title yanked away from him after a few poor years in free agency, etc.
He even got forced out of Cleveland, which wasn't entirely his fault but still. Pete is a better evaluator of talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Holmgren is an offensive mastermind. It's too bad he couldn't have come back and been our offensive coordinator under Pete, but I doubt he would take a coordinator position.

And Walter Jones, Dude.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Yep. The team that Holmgren inherited from Erickson was pretty poor too with the exception of Galloway and Springs. But Holmgren was a terrible GM. I know this thread is more focused on who's the better coach, but Holmgren had to get that GM title yanked away from him after a few poor years in free agency, etc.
He even got forced out of Cleveland, which wasn't entirely his fault but still. Pete is a better evaluator of talent, especially on the defensive side of the ball.

Holmgren is an offensive mastermind. It's too bad he couldn't have come back and been our offensive coordinator under Pete, but I doubt he would take a coordinator position.

And Walter Jones, Dude.

Holmgren really wasn't that bad a GM. Definitely not a "terrible" grade.

Keep in mind that when Holmgren agreed to take over the team, Shurmur had not been diagnosed. He was diagnosed with liver cancer in May and died in August. Holmgren was never supposed to be evaluating defensive talent. He stated the plan was to build the defense first and then assemble the offense, but he had to change tack when Shurmur died, because he had no defensive advisor, and no war chest (see next paragraph). As much as people bash Holmgren for Lamar King, he was a Shurmur selection who Shurmur never got to coach. Who knows what he saw there, but he never got the chance to bring it out.

Keep in mind when Holmgren took over the team, the salary cap was still relatively new, and Mueller made such a massive hash of it that once Holmgren cut the dead weight he had 25% of his salary cap going to players no longer on the team. Big guarantees to aging players is not wise, but Mueller's job was to make the team attractive to move to LA, not to build a Super Bowl contender.

Hollmgren-as-GM assembled that offensive line, got the RB to feature behind it, and selected a QB who was good enough not to screw it up.

So it wasn't all terrible. Whether or not he earns a passing grade without Whitsitt's constant undermining, we'll never know.

 

[Crizilla]

Pete.
Offensively speaking I'll take Holmgren though

 

[KiwiHawk]

Offense wins games; defense wins championships.

Pete.

 

[Fade]

Give Mike Holmgren John Schneider.

Give Pete Carroll Tim Ruskell.


It's like trying to debate people about QBs. 1 has the great O-Line, the other has a dumpster fire. The QB with the great O-Line has slightly better numbers than the QB who has copped liver, but if the shoe was on the other foot it wouldn't even be close.

 

[Ad Hawk]

Give Mike Holmgren John Schneider.

Give Pete Carroll Tim Ruskell.


It's like trying to debate people about QBs. 1 has the great O-Line, the other has a dumpster fire. The QB with the great O-Line has slightly better numbers than the QB who has copped liver, but if the shoe was on the other foot it wouldn't even be close.

This is true. Pete may have actually won a couple SB's with Holmgren's team, unlike the Walrus.

 

[chris98251]

Mike inherited Walter Jones and Shawn Springs, Ericson grabbed them both.

 

[Hotchy]

That's funny you just mentioned Dennis Erickson. To me, those teams horribly underachieved. I think our most talented team ever was , I think Shawn Springs rookie year. We had Moon throwing to Galloway and McKnight, Ricky Waters, Mack Strong, Cortez , Chad Brown. I forgot his name, but we got some really fast LBer from the Cowboys. Then it all ended when Moon got hurt against KC in the downpour game

 

[chris98251]

That's funny you just mentioned Dennis Erickson. To me, those teams horribly underachieved. I think our most talented team ever was , I think Shawn Springs rookie year. We had Moon throwing to Galloway and McKnight, Ricky Waters, Mack Strong, Cortez , Chad Brown. I forgot his name, but we got some really fast LBer from the Cowboys. Then it all ended when Moon got hurt against KC in the downpour game

I still remember Mirer and Kennedy and the Hot Dog controversy.

 

[Hotchy]

1998, and it was Darrin Smith. I loved safety Darryl Williams too

 

[Hotchy]

Eugene Robinson got in trouble there too. He was also an awesome FS.

 

[scutterhawk]

Give Mike Holmgren John Schneider.

Give Pete Carroll Tim Ruskell.


It's like trying to debate people about QBs. 1 has the great O-Line, the other has a dumpster fire. The QB with the great O-Line has slightly better numbers than the QB who has copped liver, but if the shoe was on the other foot it wouldn't even be close.

You're still not taking Mike Holmgren's WCO foundation into consideration.
Holmgren was anal about having his instructions followed, so when Matt Hasselbeck tried doing things HIS OWN WAY, Mike Holmgren curbed him to clip board duties, and played Trent Dilfer in his stead.

 

[Fade]

Give Mike Holmgren John Schneider.

Give Pete Carroll Tim Ruskell.


It's like trying to debate people about QBs. 1 has the great O-Line, the other has a dumpster fire. The QB with the great O-Line has slightly better numbers than the QB who has copped liver, but if the shoe was on the other foot it wouldn't even be close.

You're still not taking Mike Holmgren's WCO foundation into consideration.
Holmgren was anal about having his instructions followed, so when Matt Hasselbeck tried doing things HIS OWN WAY, Mike Holmgren curbed him to clip board duties, and played Trent Dilfer in his stead.

Good thing RW played in the WCO at NC State for 4 years, and is a very coachable player.