Preach it Danny O'Neill!

[Sgt. Largent]

I bet you the line is a little better this year on O.

I don't think it could possibly be worse, so you're right there.

I love the way Pete and John draft and develop players...................in every position OTHER THAN O-LINE. There is now a long history of philosophical failure at that position, yet it seems we continue to in the direction of hybrid athletic O-linemen that Pete trusts Cable to whip into shape into some cohesive unit.

It worked in the beginning because the line was already stabilized with great lineman like Unger and Okung, but it's been a slow decline into the worst O-line in the entire league.

 

[WindCityHawk]

If Pocic beats out Britt, then we get an upgrade at center, and if Britt beats him out, then Pocic moves outside and we get an upgrade there. I don't see a problem.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Does everyone realize that resources in the nfl are actually finite? Because reading through this topic it'd seem like some expect the hawks to have every unit on the team the very best in football

 

[mrt144]

Always Compete vs. Establish Continuity. There is an interesting discussion to be had about how these objectives can conflict with each other. However, the potential for a problem is just something to be aware of and does not mean the problem necessarily exists. We can all agree that we have had not had much continuity lately.

The primary factor has been that most of our departed linemen were simply paid very well by opposing teams. It's sort of a win for both sides in that our OL development looks very strong, we get compensatory picks from the departed players, and the opposing teams get the players that we spent a lot of time developing. It's definitely a loss for us in the continuity department though. I do not see any reason to blame 'Always Compete' for losing Okung, Unger, Carpenter, Sweezy, or Giacomini. Injury history and FA market value explain 100% of these outcomes.

That being said there are a few players that may have been pushed out by 'Always Compete'. This is 100% fan speculation but Bailey, Moffitt, and Gilliam appeared to play better than their competition on Sundays on a superficial level. Perhaps there may have been issues with them at practices or behind closed doors in other areas, perhaps on a deeper level they just weren't contributing in ways that it's hard for us to see from the outside. Time has not looked favorably on either Bailey or Moffitt after leaving the team as neither of them has played a full season for another team. With 20/20 hindsight it may have been a good thing to move on from both of them. Gilliam is still an open question and so we'll have to see how he plays for the 49ers this year.

Lastly, the constant OL adjustments last summer were a major source of Competition vs. Continuity tension. The team comments were all about versatility and finding the best group via competition and so there was legitimate concern that they were severely underrating continuity. However, consider the benefit of hindsight there; knowing how raw Fant was and that Sowell and Webb would not work out. it's reasonable that the team was trying to put a good spin on needing to find any working lineup of 5 OL. The proof will be in the pudding this off-season as I'd like to have our starting five OL set prior to the first preseason game. If we do not then that will be a time to worry about this issue further.

I think the biggest one is Patrick Lewis. Filled in fine as a backup to Unger and yet got as much love as a rented mule.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

O'neil is a troll I listen to KJR.

 

[mrt144]

If Pocic beats out Britt, then we get an upgrade at center, and if Britt beats him out, then Pocic moves outside and we get an upgrade there. I don't see a problem.

This is like Laying a 10 at the craps table while doing just pass line bets. You're hedging something that changes your expected value downward.

 

[sc85sis]

One reason for all the switching is the high number of offensive line injuries we've had the last few years. We've also lost guys to other teams.

If this were easy, anyone could do it. There are a whole lot of factors to which you and I aren't privy that go into their decisions.

 

[Bobblehead]

I"m not sure why it's being made out so complicated when it's pretty simple. If your any good at all, your not going to be a versatile player, your going to play where your good at. If your not good, you need to become a versatile player so you can backup different positions when the time arises.

 

[scutterhawk]

Everybody was Okie Dokie with Pete Carroll's two prong attack, and Tom Cable's O-line was opening holes for the 'BEAST' to run thru.

Lynch led the league in yardage after contact. He was as much a part of his success as the line.

He certainly did, but you have to acknowledge that he did NOT do it all by himself.... The O-Line was DESIGNED around Lynch's particular skillset, and on many occasions it was their blocking that helped by opening up some of the holes for him to get a head of steam up, and it was that momentum that helped him get a lot of those "Yards After Contact".
Just review the Beast-Quake play against NO, hell, even the Quarterback got involved in blocking down field for him.
He had some fantastic runs, but not every single one of them were of his own doing, or he'd have done it while playing for the Bills, and we'd have played hell wresting him away from them.
Just admitting that Lynch had success, points to what I've been saying about the deficiency of not having a run game to HELP take pressure off of Russell Wilson AND the O-Line.
Everybody says that RW is hanging onto the ball for too long, and should just get rid of it... (That certainly would help an anemic Pass Pro O-Line) Having a successful Run game (set up with some decent Run blocking scheme, would be another way to keep drives alive.
Old saying..."The Run Set's Up The Pass", "And The Pass Sets Up The Run"...It worked to perfection with having a monster run game (to which Wilson had nearly 600 yards in one Season)...Run Blocking attributed to MANY of those yards.

 

[seahawkfreak]

How many more draft picks and free agents must be wasted on this philosophy? The team is almost over 100 transactions including draft picks on the Oline ALONE, since the current line coach took over. When is enough, enough?

idk, great question.


To play Devil's Advocate though, it's not entirely on John and Pete for this philosophy. The college game is garbage with very few teams running pro style offenses developing lineman properly.

So it's not like the old days where the draft was full of 3-4 year centers, guards and tackles and all you had to do was pick a couple every year to fill your holes along the O-line with no learning curves other than learning your plays.

This is why it is hard to argue against what the FO is doing when it comes to personnel sometimes. Seems like the most talented athletes coming out of high school and college is on the DLine. JS has said numerous times that he is not willing to pay the inflated rate for Offensive linemen in the league. It seems that his belief is that money should only go to where it is worth. Also seems like only a couple NFL teams have good to decent OLines and they pay through the nose for them. I will be happy with a simply average OLine. We won a SB with one (Even though we paid through the nose for it).

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

Danny is kind of a Jim Moore lite. He does often pander to Troll nation though.

In this case, this complaint is complete BS. Every single team in the NFL moves guys around. Seattle isn't an outlier in this practice. Not even necessarily a team that does it the most either.

 

[sdog1981]

One last bit to add to this. The massive amount of draft picks the Seahawks have used on Olinemen since 2010.

http://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahaw ... since-2010

 

[AgentDib]

That being said there are a few players that may have been pushed out by 'Always Compete'...

I think the biggest one is Patrick Lewis. Filled in fine as a backup to Unger and yet got as much love as a rented mule.

I completely agree that Lewis appeared to play a lot better than they rated him. I think that was about his athleticism and measurables though; specifically 32 3/8" arm length on a sub 6' 1" frame. The error was probably less about Always Compete and more about a gamble on Nowak and Sokoli (34" arms 6'4" height) developing skill to match their dimensions that didn't work out.

 

[scutterhawk]

That being said there are a few players that may have been pushed out by 'Always Compete'...

I think the biggest one is Patrick Lewis. Filled in fine as a backup to Unger and yet got as much love as a rented mule.

I completely agree that Lewis appeared to play a lot better than they rated him. I think that was about his athleticism and measurables though; specifically 32 3/8" arm length on a sub 6' 1" frame. The error was probably less about Always Compete and more about a gamble on Nowak and Sokoli (34" arms 6'4" height) developing skill to match their dimensions that didn't work out.

Yep, if they aren't going to develop decent O-Linemen in College (and most haven't been), you have to find players with the measurables that checks the most boxes, and develop them to your liking.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

JS has said numerous times that he is not willing to pay the inflated rate for Offensive linemen in the league.

Indeed. Guards get paid as much as Richard Sherman these days.

Given that and how mobile and self-protecting Russell Wilson is, is it really any surprise that Pete and John see the O-line as an opportunity to go bargain-bin?

 

[penihawk]

I bet you the line is a little better this year on O.

I don't think it could possibly be worse, so you're right there.

I love the way Pete and John draft and develop players...................in every position OTHER THAN O-LINE. There is now a long history of philosophical failure at that position, yet it seems we continue to in the direction of hybrid athletic O-linemen that Pete trusts Cable to whip into shape into some cohesive unit.

It worked in the beginning because the line was already stabilized with great lineman like Unger and Okung, but it's been a slow decline into the worst O-line in the entire league.

Did you really just attach the word "great" to Unger & Okung? I tend to steer clear of the O-line bashing debates because there are no easy answers with the salary cap era and modern NCAA football being what it is but "great"? Really? :34853_doh: How bout good at times with injury history and struggles against certain types of opponents?

I think I will wait and see what it looks like when football starts before I jump on the "worst ever" bandwagon.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I bet you the line is a little better this year on O.

I don't think it could possibly be worse, so you're right there.

I love the way Pete and John draft and develop players...................in every position OTHER THAN O-LINE. There is now a long history of philosophical failure at that position, yet it seems we continue to in the direction of hybrid athletic O-linemen that Pete trusts Cable to whip into shape into some cohesive unit.

It worked in the beginning because the line was already stabilized with great lineman like Unger and Okung, but it's been a slow decline into the worst O-line in the entire league.

Did you really just attach the word "great" to Unger & Okung? I tend to steer clear of the O-line bashing debates because there are no easy answers with the salary cap era and modern NCAA football being what it is but "great"? Really? :34853_doh: How bout good at times with injury history and struggles against certain types of opponents?

I think I will wait and see what it looks like when football starts before I jump on the "worst ever" bandwagon.

Both Unger and Okung were top 10 at their position while they were here, even despite the injuries. So yes in the context of 32 teams? Great LT and center drafts.

 

[penihawk]

:lol: :lol: :lol: you didn't specify that we were grading on the curve. Walter Jones great, Okung & Unger good at times. It must get tiresome bitching about the disagreement with the zone blocking system and the league wide lack of OL talent to fix it. Carry on. :2thumbs:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

:lol: :lol: :lol: you didn't specify that we were grading on the curve. Walter Jones great, Okung & Unger good at times. It must get tiresome bitching about the disagreement with the zone blocking system and the league wide lack of OL talent to fix it. Carry on. :2thumbs:

You're right, we should be focusing on semantic disagreements on the word "great."

 

[Seafan]

I don't think Danny is necessarily correct. The Hawk actions can also imply they aren't happy with the performances of several of their OLs.