Random thoughts on the Denver preseason game

[bigskydoc]

So wait a QB in his 2nd year and former starter has no awareness of were he is on the field? really and you want him as your backup QB, I mean he played college ball, the same rules this is his 2nd year in the NFL, he played HS ball and after all that still no awareness were he is on the field. Hmm that is a huge problem

You may be misinterpreting my desire to see TP taking second team reps against Chicago as a desire to see him as our #2 QB. I have no opinion yet on where TP should end up come Aug 26th (first roster cuts) or 30th (final roster cuts). I just want a reasonable opportunity to evaluate him in the job that he is competing for, the #2 QB. He has shown more potential than I expected, but we haven't seen enough to make a determination of if (or where) he fits into our system.

To make that determination, I would like to see him take second team reps against a good defense after he has had adequate time to learn our system, but before the first roster cuts. I think that it is appropriate for TJack to get the second team reps during the first two pre-season games, so the Chicago game is perfectly suited for moving TP into the 2nd slot for a final evaluation before the first round of cuts.

His lack of on-field awareness in the Denver game was concerning and looked like a huge problem to me.

Like I said.

You would think that at this point in a running QB's career, knowing where the LOS is should be pretty automatic.

At the same time, I saw more from him than I expected so the LOS awareness issue is puzzling. Perhaps he was so focused on figuring out the system that he couldn't just relax and play. Perhaps he is used to reading the LOS by the position of the line, but our line was so blown up that he couldn't use his normal cues. I don't know.

When we brought him in, my hope was that we could get him to change positions. Now, I would say that my hope is that we turn him into a serviceable #2. Not necessarily our #2. If he gives us good showings on the second team against Chicago and Oakland, he might be good trade fodder. I could see us tucking him in at #3 for a mid-season trade to a team in desperate need but who has a spare lineman or a good draft pick.


- bsd

 

[bigskydoc]

A couple of other random thoughts that I had about the game.

Our somewhat cobbled together defense (several starters combined with some talent we were evaluating) held Denver's mostly first team offense scoreless until under 2min left in the first quarter. This was despite playing a very soft defensive scheme.

I saw at least a couple of occasions where our defensive stars (Sherm/Thomas specifically) pulled up to let the rookies make the play. When no rookies were around, they had no problems stepping in.

*Heath Farwell better be polishing his resume. Coyle brought it on both defense and special teams. It looks like he did his job of reading the Denver scheme and leading the defensive response. Before this game, I figured that Farwell's special teams contribution would continue to cement his position, but Coyle was making big plays there too. Even when he wasn't in on the tackle, he was doing a nice job of setting the edge and redirecting the return man into the strength of the coverage. He needs some work on his Hawk tackling technique though.

Hope our O-line gels before RW gets killed. Yes, I know only one #1 offensive lineman actually played etc. I just hope we can have a solid O-line going into the season.

Like most 1st preseason games it was horribly choppy. This wasn't helped by the flag football game that the striped team decided to play.

-bsd


*Disclaimer, I am really rooting for Coyle so I am in no way impartial in my evaluation.

 

[scutterhawk]

You may be misinterpreting my desire to see TP taking second team reps against Chicago as a desire to see him as our #2 QB. I have no opinion yet on where TP should end up come Aug 26th (first roster cuts) or 30th (final roster cuts). I just want a reasonable opportunity to evaluate him in the job that he is competing for, the #2 QB. He has shown more potential than I expected, but we haven't seen enough to make a determination of if (or where) he fits into our system.

His lack of on-field awareness in the Denver game was concerning and looked like a huge problem to me.

Like I said.

At the same time, I saw more from him than I expected so the LOS awareness issue is puzzling. Perhaps he was so focused on figuring out the system that he couldn't just relax and play. Perhaps he is used to reading the LOS by the position of the line, but our line was so blown up that he couldn't use his normal cues. I don't know.

When we brought him in, my hope was that we could get him to change positions. Now, I would say that my hope is that we turn him into a serviceable #2. Not necessarily our #2. If he gives us good showings on the second team against Chicago and Oakland, he might be good trade fodder. I could see us tucking him in at #3 for a mid-season trade to a team in desperate need but who has a spare lineman or a good draft pick.
- bsd

Team mates, Coaches, and many fans really like/love Jackson, so I don't think TP is much,( if any) threat to taking the #2 job away anytime soon.
Pryor, in my humble opinion, is working his ass off, trying to reinvent himself, I think it's going to take a lot more time than he's had up to now, to shag himself of a lot of the bad habits that he's picked up along the way.
I'll reiterate what I said above, that with all his physical tools, if he gets "IT" his value will shoot up, and (via trade) could possibly find himself in a #2, or maybe even a #1 spot on another team.
I think Bevel and Wilson are exactly the kind of influences that TP has been needing.

 

[DavidSeven]

To me, beating the drums for T-Jack or Pryor in a either/or type fashion isn't really the way to look at things. Pete knows he can win games with T-Jack. He's said that this off-season. It would take a spectacular upset for T-Jack to not be on the roster this season as QB2.

Pryor, conversely, is fighting for a spot on the 53. He's competing against RBs, O-linemen, D-linemen, LBs, etc. There are always a few guys at the bottom of the roster that Seattle likes to tuck away for the sake of development. The fact that he's a UFA next year is noted, but I assure you, the demand for a third-string QB who previously lost his job to a UDFA rookie in Oakland isn't going to be very high. I don't care what he does this pre-season -- that's not going to change. BJ Daniels was a preseason star and passed through waivers twice last year. Vince Young and Tim Tebow can barely get tryouts, and they won games that mattered. It's hard to recover once you've been written off (as Pryor has). If he shows some potential for development, I think it may be worth holding a spot for him as QB3, and I doubt it will be difficult to re-sign him in 2015.

 

[kearly]

If he had another year after this on his contract I would agree, but he does not. Also I disagree with you I think teams will want Pryor, for one he is young, Some team who does not have their QB will give him real chance, one he really does not have hear he was never going to start over Rw. Add to that some team might think they can make him change positions something we have been un willing or unable to do. I would have expected Pryor a former starter in this league to look better against 3s and guys who might not even be in this league in a month than he did. I can see why PC got him, He is fast, He is big but he is not a QB.

I don't blame you for being anti-Pryor. But you are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth in this paragraph. He's bad and yet other teams will want him more than Seattle? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guarantee, unless Pryor wows the NFL this season in a few spot starts, he won't be a hot commodity next offseason. If Seattle wants him back as a FA it is unlikely to be an issue. It is also a guarantee that Pryor wouldn't leave Seattle to play a different position somewhere else. He's been adamant about playing QB. The only scenario where Pryor leaves that's feasible is if a team offers him a starting job at QB, which is very unlikely.

Teams will have interest, sure, but if anyone wanted to outbid Seattle financially, we would have already seen evidence of that when Seattle acquired Pryor for only a 7th round pick. Nobody was outbidding Seattle then, nobody will outbid Seattle next year when Pryor is a year older and a year further removed from starting.

 

[Anthony!]

If he had another year after this on his contract I would agree, but he does not. Also I disagree with you I think teams will want Pryor, for one he is young, Some team who does not have their QB will give him real chance, one he really does not have hear he was never going to start over Rw. Add to that some team might think they can make him change positions something we have been un willing or unable to do. I would have expected Pryor a former starter in this league to look better against 3s and guys who might not even be in this league in a month than he did. I can see why PC got him, He is fast, He is big but he is not a QB.

I don't blame you for being anti-Pryor. But you are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth in this paragraph. He's bad and yet other teams will want him more than Seattle? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guarantee, unless Pryor wows the NFL this season in a few spot starts, he won't be a hot commodity next offseason. If Seattle wants him back as a FA it is unlikely to be an issue. It is also a guarantee that Pryor wouldn't leave Seattle to play a different position somewhere else. He's been adamant about playing QB. The only scenario where Pryor leaves that's feasible is if a team offers him a starting job at QB, which is very unlikely.

Teams will have interest, sure, but if anyone wanted to outbid Seattle financially, we would have already seen evidence of that when Seattle acquired Pryor for only a 7th round pick. Nobody was outbidding Seattle then, nobody will outbid Seattle next year when Pryor is a year older and a year further removed from starting.

Sorry not talking out of both sides at all, Our situation is different form other teams. Pryor is not good, but for a team that has nothing he is worth the gamble not for a SB team.

 

[scutterhawk]

If he had another year after this on his contract I would agree, but he does not. Also I disagree with you I think teams will want Pryor, for one he is young, Some team who does not have their QB will give him real chance, one he really does not have hear he was never going to start over Rw. Add to that some team might think they can make him change positions something we have been un willing or unable to do. I would have expected Pryor a former starter in this league to look better against 3s and guys who might not even be in this league in a month than he did. I can see why PC got him, He is fast, He is big but he is not a QB.

I don't blame you for being anti-Pryor. But you are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth in this paragraph. He's bad and yet other teams will want him more than Seattle? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guarantee, unless Pryor wows the NFL this season in a few spot starts, he won't be a hot commodity next offseason. If Seattle wants him back as a FA it is unlikely to be an issue. It is also a guarantee that Pryor wouldn't leave Seattle to play a different position somewhere else. He's been adamant about playing QB. The only scenario where Pryor leaves that's feasible is if a team offers him a starting job at QB, which is very unlikely.

Teams will have interest, sure, but if anyone wanted to outbid Seattle financially, we would have already seen evidence of that when Seattle acquired Pryor for only a 7th round pick. Nobody was outbidding Seattle then, nobody will outbid Seattle next year when Pryor is a year older and a year further removed from starting.

Sorry not talking out of both sides at all, Our situation is different form other teams. Pryor is not good, but for a team that has nothing he is worth the gamble not for a SB team.

Hmm, seems kind of odd to me that the Seahawks be wasting their time, by letting him get take away some pretty valuable practice time for B. J. Daniels.
It's apparent, to me anyways, that they don't see him as "Not Good", and in fact, I think they saw enough potential and upside, that they offered up a 7th round pick to get him, and invest some time to re-tool, and upgrade his play, and increase his trade value.
Or, maybe they were just being good old boys, and was only interested in him not being broke.
I guarantee you one thing, and that is, there are some teams out there that are now giving him some second looks, now that a Super Bowl team has taken him under their wing.

 

[Anthony!]

If he had another year after this on his contract I would agree, but he does not. Also I disagree with you I think teams will want Pryor, for one he is young, Some team who does not have their QB will give him real chance, one he really does not have hear he was never going to start over Rw. Add to that some team might think they can make him change positions something we have been un willing or unable to do. I would have expected Pryor a former starter in this league to look better against 3s and guys who might not even be in this league in a month than he did. I can see why PC got him, He is fast, He is big but he is not a QB.

I don't blame you for being anti-Pryor. But you are kind of talking out of both sides of your mouth in this paragraph. He's bad and yet other teams will want him more than Seattle? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

I guarantee, unless Pryor wows the NFL this season in a few spot starts, he won't be a hot commodity next offseason. If Seattle wants him back as a FA it is unlikely to be an issue. It is also a guarantee that Pryor wouldn't leave Seattle to play a different position somewhere else. He's been adamant about playing QB. The only scenario where Pryor leaves that's feasible is if a team offers him a starting job at QB, which is very unlikely.

Teams will have interest, sure, but if anyone wanted to outbid Seattle financially, we would have already seen evidence of that when Seattle acquired Pryor for only a 7th round pick. Nobody was outbidding Seattle then, nobody will outbid Seattle next year when Pryor is a year older and a year further removed from starting.

Sorry not talking out of both sides at all, Our situation is different form other teams. Pryor is not good, but for a team that has nothing he is worth the gamble not for a SB team.

Hmm, seems kind of odd to me that the Seahawks be wasting their time, by letting him get take away some pretty valuable practice time for B. J. Daniels.
It's apparent, to me anyways, that they don't see him as "Not Good", and in fact, I think they saw enough potential and upside, that they offered up a 7th round pick to get him, and invest some time to re-tool, and upgrade his play, and increase his trade value.
Or, maybe they were just being good old boys, and was only interested in him not being broke.
I guarantee you one thing, and that is, there are some teams out there that are now giving him some second looks, now that a Super Bowl team has taken him under their wing.

And there is the only reason for all this, and it is a gamble why trade for him now and hope you can resign him, when they can wait a year and get him for nothing.

 

[Tical21]

I'm going to need a little bit more info about the second half before I can properly join the Pryor discussion. Anthony!, dude, if you could spare a little of the info you got from charting the plays, that would be awesome! TIA

 

[theincrediblesok]

Is BJ Daniel going to get any play time in the Chargers preseason game? Seems like he's 4th on the depth chart and might just be the odd man out. Houston really needs a QB, I'm wondering if we will end up trading one of our guys over there.

 

[olyfan63]

Terrelle Pryor has been humbled for really the first time in his athletic career. Now he is teachable. Now he is motivated to learn. Now he has good consistent coaching and models. Through high school and college, he could just out-athlete the competition. Now, at the NFL level,no longer can he do that. For the first time in his career, he has both the motivation and the envrironmenr

He is showing *progress* as a QB for Seattle. I'm excited to see if he keeps making progress. He's been worth the roll of the dice for a 7th rounder.

 

[themunn]

Perhaps it has something to do with Pete's philosophy to not take risks, combined with the fact that our receivers have not been particularly great at getting separation for a long time.

You answered your own question.

Russell is perfectly fine with getting rid of the ball on time. When you see him hold onto it and/or scramble it's because no one's open.

So no it's not because he's being indecisive, it's because our WR's can't get separation on time.

Wilson misses open receivers too - all QBs in the league do, because windows open and closer faster that QBs can see them. So why is it that when Jackson holds on to it, it's because he's being indecisive, but when Wilson holds on to it, it's because the WRs aren't getting open.

The only player that consistently got open in 2013 was Baldwin - is it any coincidence that he was Jackson's favourite target in 2011? Rice was injured most of the year (but looked great when healthy), BMW was his number 2 and Tate was still nowhere near the complete route-runner (even now he's not particularly great at getting open, but he gets the ball).

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I wonder if they have printed out their Pre-Season Game 1 champion banner yet? Out in Seattle, we'll be hanging up a Super Bowl Champion banner. :th2thumbs:

 

[Hawks46]

Perhaps it has something to do with Pete's philosophy to not take risks, combined with the fact that our receivers have not been particularly great at getting separation for a long time.

You answered your own question.

Russell is perfectly fine with getting rid of the ball on time. When you see him hold onto it and/or scramble it's because no one's open.

So no it's not because he's being indecisive, it's because our WR's can't get separation on time.

Wilson misses open receivers too - all QBs in the league do, because windows open and closer faster that QBs can see them. So why is it that when Jackson holds on to it, it's because he's being indecisive, but when Wilson holds on to it, it's because the WRs aren't getting open.

The only player that consistently got open in 2013 was Baldwin - is it any coincidence that he was Jackson's favourite target in 2011? Rice was injured most of the year (but looked great when healthy), BMW was his number 2 and Tate was still nowhere near the complete route-runner (even now he's not particularly great at getting open, but he gets the ball).

That's a fair point, that all NFL QB's miss reads. It's also something Wilson has been vocal about needing to improve.

It's also really my only issue with TJack. I like the guy, and I think he's gotten better, even as a backup, but his issues stem from his inability to be able to process information quickly enough. Jackson throws heavily to the right side of the field. Not unusual for a right handed QB, but he virtually excludes the left side of the field. Another thing is his complete inability to read his TE's. Look at every TE we've had under him, and he's invisible. My theory is that it's easier to break down part of the field rather than all of it, and it speeds up his decision making to "slice the pie" and pick parts of the field. I made a comment about his game one performance in another thread and one of them was a partially sarcastic "he made a completion to the left side of the field!"

Jackson doesn't throw his guys open, he won't throw to a spot, and the WR has to have obvious separation; 2-3 steps for him to thow it, and our guys didn't get that for him. It's why BMW thrived under Hass but not under Jackson; BMW wasn't a guy going to get 2 steps on anyone, but he could catch damn near any contested ball. It's also why he was most comfortable with Rice in Minny; Rice is a guy that's a large target that got obviously open. If he has decent weapons and he's comfortable, you're going to get what we get out of him now. And I do believe he's progressed; he could win some games for us this year. I honestly think he's a top 5 backup QB.

Pryor is all about a higher ceiling to the FO and coaching staff. I honestly don't know what the plans are for him, as you have a clear starter in Wilson. It's possible if Pryor progresses enough, you have some leverage in contract talks with Wilson, or maybe you just don't want to pay a QB that much money at all and he's the eventual successor. I don't know, but Pryor definitely has a higher ceiling than Jackson. Like Kip said, you could see what Pryor was doing and it was uncomfortable for him. Getting uncomfortable is what makes us grow, staying in your comfort zone generally leads to status quo. Being under Wilson is probably perfect for Pryor. From what I saw, TP wasn't bailing too early on the pocket, and looked to pass first. Our OL was too poor for me to determine if he was getting farther in his progressions than his 2nd read, but when he rolled out, he wasn't the Pryor I saw a few times last year. He looked to throw, even while on the run, while last year's Pryor was Kaepernick-ish....Read 1, Read 1, RUN. Of course he didn't look great at it, he's still working on it. Being behind Wilson is the best thing for Pryor, as Wilson is probably the best thrower on the run in the NFL.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

I wonder if they have printed out their Pre-Season Game 1 champion banner yet? Out in Seattle, we'll be hanging up a Super Bowl Champion banner. :th2thumbs:

So full of win!
.
.
.
Yoo hoo, calling Cinnamon Girl for some sort of lame-assed response.....................43-8 sweetie.

 

[rigelian]

Quite frankly I saw Pryor as tentative and cautious. He took a long time to make decisions and seemed a step slow. However, given the fact that he is in a new offense and one that puts a great emphasis on not making bad decisions, I'm not at all surprised by this. Matt Hasselbeck at one time talked about the big adjustments QBs had to make to work within Carroll's offensive philosophy. I honestly think that Pryor is still in that weird adjustment period. He might not ever get out of it, but it is far too soon to make these types of conclusions.

In contrast, I remember watching Pryor in just a few Raiders games. He didn't seem slow and deliberate in his decision making. In fact, he seemed rash and reckless. I saw a number of plays in the Broncos game where the old Pryor would have simply took off running. This Pryor made the effort to try to get away and look up the field for receivers.

I think people are being a bit too rash about Pryor.

To some extent, I thought TJ's decision was similarly constrained in his first year.

Generally speaking I think our offense will give up quick decision making by QBs as a trade off to caution. This is true for all of them. Given that our offensive line was a disaster---I think what Wilson has done is truly extraordinary...and a function of his mobility.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Wilson misses open receivers too - all QBs in the league do, because windows open and closer faster that QBs can see them. So why is it that when Jackson holds on to it, it's because he's being indecisive, but when Wilson holds on to it, it's because the WRs aren't getting open.

I didn't mean to insinuate that Wilson NEVER misses his reads, obviously every QB does.

I just don't want us to talk in absolutes............and yes when Wilson is hesitant (as with every QB), it's partly because he doesn't think the window is big enough to hit his receiver and doesn't want to throw a pick.

 

[Anthony!]

Pryor is all about a higher ceiling to the FO and coaching staff. I honestly don't know what the plans are for him, as you have a clear starter in Wilson. It's possible if Pryor progresses enough, you have some leverage in contract talks with Wilson, or maybe you just don't want to pay a QB that much money at all and he's the eventual successor. I don't know, but Pryor definitely has a higher ceiling than Jackson. Like Kip said, you could see what Pryor was doing and it was uncomfortable for him. Getting uncomfortable is what makes us grow, staying in your comfort zone generally leads to status quo. Being under Wilson is probably perfect for Pryor. From what I saw, TP wasn't bailing too early on the pocket, and looked to pass first. Our OL was too poor for me to determine if he was getting farther in his progressions than his 2nd read, but when he rolled out, he wasn't the Pryor I saw a few times last year. He looked to throw, even while on the run, while last year's Pryor was Kaepernick-ish....Read 1, Read 1, RUN. Of course he didn't look great at it, he's still working on it. Being behind Wilson is the best thing for Pryor, as Wilson is probably the best thrower on the run in the NFL.

I sure hope the part about TP being the successor to RW because they do not want to pay a QB is wrong, because if not we have 2 more years and then were done. TP is not a SB QB at all. As to leverage your only leverage is if TP can perform at the same level which he cannot. More importantly you try playing that card you might just loose RW period there will be plenty of suitors for him. HE was 1 of only 7 QBs currently playing that GM said was worthy of the #1 pick, he will have options and plenty if he gets to that point. So TP will have NO input on RW at all. Also again TP is an FA after this year to have leverage he would need to be signed and I do not believe we will be bale to resign him, someone will want him were he can get a real shot at starting.