Russ holding the ball too long

[mikeak]

If you look down at the second table in that link RW gets sacked the quickest

I think the second table indicates the opposite. He takes the longest to sack.

You are right - I wrote it wrong.

In my opinion that supports the fact that he runs around more with the ball increasing the time in category 1 making it look like he holds the ball on average longer than he does when he is in a proper pocket

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

A lot goes into QB pressure and sacks. Holding the ball too long is merely one aspect.

For me, here's the meat of the debate:

How many games have we lost because he's held onto the ball and scambled around?

vs.

How many games has he made the game winning play because he held onto the ball too long and fire drilled a big play pass?

Not saying he should always hold on too long and try to make too much happen. But I don't want him to never do it either. Up to now, his judgment on when to do it has been great. Kind of picking nits at this stage considering the games we've won because of this trait.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

Wilson has four different pass play types that affect how long he holds the ball. 1. Quick pass. We see several of these a game, and the release time is about as fast as one can expect after the ball is snapped. 2. Pass from a clean pocket. We see these so rarely, but they happen every once in a while. Wilson takes a couple seconds--I'd speculate very close to above league average--with these passes. 3. Designed rollout. Wilson rolls out and either keeps it to run or finds a receiver open downfield. This type of pass is a bit longer than league average just because of how it's run. 4. Pocket collapses and he runs around for the time it takes to play Yakety Sax, thus making the average time he holds the ball look very, very long.

If he had a great offensive line, this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.

 

[mrt144]

Wilson has four different pass play types that affect how long he holds the ball. 1. Quick pass. We see several of these a game, and the release time is about as fast as one can expect after the ball is snapped. 2. Pass from a clean pocket. We see these so rarely, but they happen every once in a while. Wilson takes a couple seconds--I'd speculate very close to above league average--with these passes. 3. Designed rollout. Wilson rolls out and either keeps it to run or finds a receiver open downfield. This type of pass is a bit longer than league average just because of how it's run. 4. Pocket collapses and he runs around for the time it takes to play Yakety Sax, thus making the average time he holds the ball look very, very long.

If he had a great offensive line, this wouldn't be a topic of discussion.

The TD to ADB is an example of a developing play with an anticipation throw - the OL blocks it pretty damn well against a 4 man rush with only Okung really letting the pressure get even close to RW and RW just lays it in there for ADB to make a play. This is how plays are supposed to work but it can't happen very often when there is a different weak link on each play; the snap, the ol, receiver routes, wilson's reads, wilson's throw, receiver's catch.

 

[brimsalabim]

Right now in our offense Russell Wilson holds the ball as long as he has to to try to make a play. He is also apparently trying to get his pre snap read while simultaneously making the line calls and tracking down the errant snap. After the snap he usually has 1.5 seconds to make a play from the "pocket" but because he had to waste .5 seconds fielding the erratic snap he usually has to move or be sacked! The good news is that he often makes plays on the move and when he gets time and a good snap we get this: https://cdn.streamable.com/video/webm/wieh.webm

 

[Greenhell]

A lot goes into QB pressure and sacks. Holding the ball too long is merely one aspect.

For me, here's the meat of the debate:

How many games have we lost because he's held onto the ball and scambled around?

vs.

How many games has he made the game winning play because he held onto the ball too long and fire drilled a big play pass?

Not saying he should always hold on too long and try to make too much happen. But I don't want him to never do it either. Up to now, his judgment on when to do it has been great. Kind of picking nits at this stage considering the games we've won because of this trait.

You have a point. I was wondering if that trait was seen when he played college ball?

 

[MontanaHawk05]

It's apparent that Russ holding on to the ball too long is impacting this offense but is this something he did while in college too or Has PC put so much into not making any mistakes with the ball turned into an anxiety Russ now has??? Is this a fear Russ has now or what?

Not having followed or watched much of his college highlights is the holding on to the ball too long also been a part of his game in college? Seems unlikely.

Wilson holding the ball wasn't generally the problem on Monday, except for a couple cases. But it has been the other problem in previous weeks.

 

[HommyHawk]

What if we try what the bears did on offense against us.extra lineman at t.e. put gram out wide and make Gilliam eligible.Run it down there throat and play action once in a while.not exciting but effective. ( or I have no clue what I'm talking about)

 

[Fade]

Russ holding the ball too long is complicated. It's not just a simple yes. It's more like -->WHY<-- does he hold the ball too long?

#1 reason Russell holds the ball too long is his protection is disrupted up front, and he is moved off his spot. Remember he needs space --> he is only 5'10". So he will scramble, get that required space, reset, and make the throw.

#2 Play design, it is pretty amazing how many times a play is called, and there is no outlet, or hot receiver. I guess the thinking is everyone go deep and then let the scramble drill commence.

#3 Pete Carroll is in his ear constantly to not take risks, and do not turn it over. So unless it is wide open he is gun shy. When you have a Championship level defense it makes sense to a certain to degree.

#4 Happy Feet - He doesn't trust his protection at times (Would you?). So he will scramble out unnecessarily & hold the ball w/no outlet or hot --> leads back to #1 & #2.

#5 The Play was DOA. Whether the Defense guessed right, or it was just a bad play, Wilson will scramble and see if he can salvage it (which is a good thing). Others would just throw it away, because they aren't RW.

#6 He didn't see it --> because he was looking somewhere else (this happens to all QBs).

#7 He didn't see it --> his view was obstructed (too short). This doesn't happen as often as his haters would have you believe, but it happens at times.

#8 Wilson is at his best extending the play which requires holding the ball.

Some may want to debate the ordering of these reasons, but it would be semantics.

Bottom line: If the protection up front is improved (#1), and the play design is tweaked (#2). The complaining about RW holding the ball too long would go away.

 

[seahawksny]

Maybe is someone actually blocked for him once in awhile it would be less of a problem. Imagine that, blocking for your QB.

Couldn't have put it more simply

 

[Scottemojo]

It has been mentioned by Pete a couple of weeks in a row now.
It is a problem a few times a game.

But in the Detroit game, the Wilson error that bugged me the most was when he had a mismatch out wide as the clock wound toward two minutes, but allowed the D to get a guy over there, then didn't get the ball snapped before the warning with Graham still in a one on one out wide. It wasn't holding the ball, but it was a pretty easy play ignored for I don't know why. The ensuing disaster 3 plays and ensuing long field goal really make that error stand out even more.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

But in the Detroit game, the Wilson error that bugged me the most was when he had a mismatch out wide as the clock wound toward two minutes, but allowed the D to get a guy over there, then didn't get the ball snapped before the warning with Graham still in a one on one out wide.

I've seen this happen a couple instances this year. Where he sees it and is clapping furiously to speed up the snap. I expect it has to do with the sluggish inexperience on the OL and in particular the center. It's understandable that they are still taking a lot of time just trying to call out assignments and not at a point where they can process something like a hurried snap cadence.

I think you see that too, in both the number of time outs we've used to prevent delay of game penalties, as well as how quickly Seattle is getting out of the huddle. Obviously they are focusing on getting to the line quickly because they aren't yet at a point where they can crisply go through what they are doing. Still a lot of thinking going on pre snap. Which is entirely understandable.

 

[DavidSeven]

I'm not entirely convinced it is Pete's messaging that has led to this. Pete has said in the press (this year and last year) that the ball can come out faster and also that Russell can play more aggressively on the read-option keeper. So, it is clearly not just a matter of Pete wanting to be safe, safe, safe. I think these are decisions that Russell is making in spite of what he is being coached to do, and he obviously has some freedom to play how he wants. He's had a lot of success, so far be it from me to question that.

That said, there are times when Russell chooses not to make even the most conservative throws. How often do we sit there and wonder why he doesn't move out of the pocket and throw the ball away on broken protection? Maybe he's looking for something better to open up. But in watching him, it seems clear he doesn't like to throw incompletions unless he literally has no other option.

Here's what Chip Kelly (who also focuses on turnover ratios) wrote about sacks a few years ago:

"In our attitude, every sack is the quarterback's fault. It is not a sack if the quarterback throws the ball away. Nobody ever lost a game on an incomplete pass. Throw the ball away, and give us another opportunity to make a first down. lf you throw it away, it is second-and-10 for the first down. If you take the sack, it is second-and-16 for the down. lf you can stay away from negative yardage plays, you will be successful."

 

[HawKnPeppa]

"too long" is the 1.5 seconds he gets per snap before there's someone in his face or running him down.

Does anyone remember Tom Brady early last year? His oline was in shambles and people were questioning if maybe it was time to start Garapollo.. Fast forward, he's the undesputed best QB in the league through the last 10 games of last year and the first 3 of this year.. Do you think he remembered to throw the ball on time? No, he went from getting poor protection, to elite level protection. If we can figure this out on the line, Russ will ball out soon.

I have to disagree with that "undisputed" part. There's still quite a few who would go with Rodgers. Also, it absolutely is largely due to getting the ball out quickly, and while their protection has improved it's not elite and he's not chilling back there with loads of time to survey the field. His pre-snap understanding of what the defense is doing is where he is the best and blows Russell away. Their OC also understands the value of having quickly developing routes and how to use one of the best TE weapons the league has ever seen.

"Their OC also understands the value of having quickly developing routes and how to use one of the best TE weapons the league has ever seen"

For Brady to 'blow Wilson' away, one would first have to give Russ the same options to level the playing field. By your own admission above, that is not the case.

 

[erik2690]

"Russell Wilson is getting rid of the football quicker than he ever has before. According to ESPN Stats & Information, Wilson is taking 2.58 seconds to throw this year. Before this season, that number was 2.91."

His average will always have more inflation than almost any QB because of the 6+ sec. plays that often actually end up as good plays and the occasional crazy 10+ sec.

 

[McGruff]

Remember that numbers on how long a qb holds the ball are significantly affected by RWs ability to run around with the ball.

If he has a 7 second play that means that his average on 20 passes went up from 4 secs to 4.15 secs. So this happens 2-3 times per game meaning that the average that RW holds the ball is basically inflated with half a second per game.

That kind of stat would move him from holding the ball the longest (see link below) to top of the list

2012 data to prove that point

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... -to-throw/

If you look down at the second table in that link RW gets sacked the quickest

My thougths exactly. These numbers are skewed somewhat by Russell extending plays with his legs that would be quick sacks or throw aways for many qbs.

 

[ringless]

@SheilKapadia 3h3 hours ago
Russell Wilson getting rid of the ball quicker ever than before. Five things I'm watching Sunday: http://es.pn/1jVHsPL

@DavisHsuSeattle 60m60 minutes ago
Sheil showing Wilson getting ball out half a second quicker on avg than previous years- also SEA gave up 3 passes of 20+ yards last 2 games