Russell Wilson Development

[Popeyejones]

Seattle was showing press and then bailing into zone coverage and Brady was taking what the defense gave him. I have never seen a more patient QB. Most QBs want to hit the Seahawks defense with big plays so they try things they shouldn't.

Yep. TBF it's the same thing the Chargers did. There just aren't very many QBs who have the patience, pre-snap ability, and consistency in accuracy to pull that off. Heck, even QBs who do can be done in by scheme (Rodgers, and the mistake to ignore half the field and let Seattle's D adjust) or just not having a good day (e.g. Manning in the SB).

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm not an X's and O's person, but I'd like to see Russ throw the ball quicker. Watching Two-step Tommy at the Super Bowl killing us with passes that he threw, like, 0.23 seconds after the snap made me wonder why we can't do that. Maybe an X and O guy can explain: Are our receivers not getting open? Are our slot guys and TEs too unreliable in short-yardage, high traffic situations? Is Russ lacking confidence in his targets (or himself)? Or is it just something Pete and Darryl don't like to do?

Seattle was showing press and then bailing into zone coverage and Brady was taking what the defense gave him. I have never seen a more patient QB. Most QBs want to hit the Seahawks defense with big plays so they try things they shouldn't.

Most teams line their corners up tight against Seattle's receivers which makes those quick passes more dangerous. When other teams play off, Russell takes advantage of it when he needs it.

Just shows you how mortal our defense is when we don't have a pass rush and TWO corners that can press man to man without help.

The combo of Simon getting eaten alive and Avril going out of the game destroyed our chances of holding that 10 pt lead in the 4th.

 

[Anthony!]

I think Wilson needs to improve in the same areas that I've been looking for him to improve for the last two off seasons also.
I think he definitely still has time make these improvements, but TBH I've been incredibly surprised by his lack of development in the areas I was expecting.

*Wilson still uses an internal clock to break from his designated spot rather than responding to pressure. I thought he would have developed a little bit more in this regard, but I have yet to see it.

*On non-gimmick pass plays he's still almost exclusively throwing from above the pocket, or after having broken from the top of the pocket if nothing is available to him when his internal clock starts ringing. Some people say this is a height thing, and I don't think that's even remotely true. Drew Brees really isn't much taller than Wilson, and he's excellent at this: he 1) stays at the top of the pocket until he feels pressure (it's not an internal clock thing), 2) he steps into the pocket (Wilson still rarely does this unless it's winding up to throw, and 3) he manipulates the pocket to buy more time while keeping his eyes up field. I thought Wilson would be intermittently doing all three of these things by now, and I haven't just seen any development along any of these lines at all.

*Wilson's accuracy still runs very hot and cold. It's always been a strange one for me, because I don't see anything in his mechanics that would cause this, and because he's really consistent in his mechanics (clearly something he has put a lot of work into). This has always been a big head scratcher for me. I'm just not sure what it is.

Overall the Russell Wilson I watched last year really hadn't developed from the Wilson I watched the year before or the year before that. That was masked a little bit by his outlier year rushing the ball last year, and the wild fluke of none of his fumblings being lost last year.

Also worth saying that none of these are things that you can blame on WR or O-Line play. If anything, bad WRs and a bad OLine would give someone MORE opportunity to develop these skills, and these are PRECISELY the skills that guys like Rodgers, Brees, Manning, and Brady posses that make bad WR and line play look like good WR and line play to the untrained eye.

And just to insulate myself from some of the hate a little bit, I believe that currently Wilson is as he's been: a very good quarterback.

ukeface:

 

[Tical21]

I'm not an X's and O's person, but I'd like to see Russ throw the ball quicker. Watching Two-step Tommy at the Super Bowl killing us with passes that he threw, like, 0.23 seconds after the snap made me wonder why we can't do that. Maybe an X and O guy can explain: Are our receivers not getting open? Are our slot guys and TEs too unreliable in short-yardage, high traffic situations? Is Russ lacking confidence in his targets (or himself)? Or is it just something Pete and Darryl don't like to do?

All of the above. Teams really pack it in tight against us, especially since we don't have a deep threat to take the top off. They can leave their safety in the box, lurking around these quick passes, play man on the outside, take away the quick stuff, and beg us to try to beat them deep, and we can't take advantage of it.

Because of the coverage, we do call a lot of deeper routes to our outside receivers. Also, our receivers aren't the best in the league at creating separation off the line, but the film that I've seen shows they aren't awful at this either. Part of it is Russell's height. Part of it is his confidence. Part of it is that he would rather hold the ball and make a big play.

If we show an ability to beat teams over the top, and it only has to happen a couple of times, the underneath stuff should present itself quite a bit more easily.

 

[Popeyejones]

ukeface:

Eh, just stick with the last sentence. It might be more the speed you're looking for. :th2thumbs:

 

[Anthony!]

ukeface:

Eh, just stick with the last sentence. It might be more the speed you're looking for. :th2thumbs:

It was all your post deserved

 

[RichNhansom]

I think Wilson needs to improve in the same areas that I've been looking for him to improve for the last two off seasons also.
I think he definitely still has time make these improvements, but TBH I've been incredibly surprised by his lack of development in the areas I was expecting.

*Wilson still uses an internal clock to break from his designated spot rather than responding to pressure. I thought he would have developed a little bit more in this regard, but I have yet to see it.

*On non-gimmick pass plays he's still almost exclusively throwing from above the pocket, or after having broken from the top of the pocket if nothing is available to him when his internal clock starts ringing. Some people say this is a height thing, and I don't think that's even remotely true. Drew Brees really isn't much taller than Wilson, and he's excellent at this: he 1) stays at the top of the pocket until he feels pressure (it's not an internal clock thing), 2) he steps into the pocket (Wilson still rarely does this unless it's winding up to throw, and 3) he manipulates the pocket to buy more time while keeping his eyes up field. I thought Wilson would be intermittently doing all three of these things by now, and I haven't just seen any development along any of these lines at all.

*Wilson's accuracy still runs very hot and cold. It's always been a strange one for me, because I don't see anything in his mechanics that would cause this, and because he's really consistent in his mechanics (clearly something he has put a lot of work into). This has always been a big head scratcher for me. I'm just not sure what it is.

Overall the Russell Wilson I watched last year really hadn't developed from the Wilson I watched the year before or the year before that. That was masked a little bit by his outlier year rushing the ball last year, and the wild fluke of none of his fumblings being lost last year.

Also worth saying that none of these are things that you can blame on WR or O-Line play. If anything, bad WRs and a bad OLine would give someone MORE opportunity to develop these skills, and these are PRECISELY the skills that guys like Rodgers, Brees, Manning, and Brady posses that make bad WR and line play look like good WR and line play to the untrained eye.

And just to insulate myself from some of the hate a little bit, I believe that currently Wilson is as he's been: a very good quarterback.

ukeface:

I don't have a problem with his breakdown but you have to remember this is a view from someone that would like to see Wilson struggle. I know he wants to come off as being unbiased and does a good job trying but really if he tries to say he isn't rooting for Russell to fail, he would simply be lying.

He is not completely wrong on his pocket analysis but he ignores the talent around Wilson has decreased. The O-line is probably on par but the receiving corp has downgraded with the losses of Miller, Tate and Rice, If he is even staying close to par in his development and not declining it is a plus.

His accuracy on crossing patterns has definitely been something he needed to work on and IMO he has improved on this but again a more consistent WR corp would also help in that development.

Saying the O-line and receivers being poor should help his development is the only thing I take notice with. It ignores what makes good QB's good. Confidence. Confidence is not something you just get you have to get it from having success and that success needs to be consistent for you to believe in it. With a constant flux in the O-line and lacking true talent to at WR and TE you will be hard pressed to get that consistent success. If anything that is usually the reason QB's regress.

Case and point. Keap last year when his O-line suffered. His performance decreased significantly and that was with a good running game and a significantly better receiving corp that Russell had.

He likes to use Drew Brees as an example because of similar size but Brees has way better receivers, O-line play and plays much easier defenses and yet still how did he do against us the last couple times he played us?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He could win 5 titles, and it still won't be good enough for some people :?

 

[Year of The Hawk]

Pete has said in the past they design plays with Wilson scrambling incorporated. Maybe the typical "pocket pass play" is not typical for the system put in play for him. Maybe they are looking outside the box and redefining what a QB does. Not to say he doesn't need to improve but I think the "typical" pocket passer is something he is not going to be. His greatness shines in other ways.
As far a better receivers I think good receivers would help ANY quarterback and Russell being no exception. In this offense I think Pete just isn't willing to put a lot of capital into the receiving core in a run first offense. Maybe he will get lucky with a late rounder who will shine but IMHO he will pick a RB before a receiver in this draft.

BTW very interesting reads. Thanks.

 

[Popeyejones]

I don't have a problem with his breakdown but you have to remember this is a view from someone that would like to see Wilson struggle. I know he wants to come off as being unbiased and does a good job trying but really if he tries to say he isn't rooting for Russell to fail, he would simply be lying.

With the key sentence here being you don't have a problem with my breakdown. As for the rest, you're simply wrong.

Of course I root against the Hawks when they play the 9ers. That's obvious. Also obvious from my entire posting history is that I really, really enjoy watching (and root for) many of the Hawks' players (e.g. Lynch, Bennett, Sherman, Tate when he was with the team, etc.). Wilson is one of those guys. As I've been saying since his rookie year he reminds me more of Steve Young -- my favorite QB -- than any other NFL player I've ever seen. I've been nothing if not consistent here and even on 9ers forums in saying how much I enjoy watching Wilson play. Put another way, your conspiracy theory is a dud. You should instead evaluate my arguments based in their own merits, not based on hidden meanings or subterfuge.

He is not completely wrong on his pocket analysis but he ignores the talent around Wilson has decreased. The O-line is probably on par but the receiving corp has downgraded with the losses of Miller, Tate and Rice, If he is even staying close to par in his development and not declining it is a plus.

This too is incorrect. I think one problem we're having is you're implicitly conflating "development" with statistics. Wilson's statistics could go down while his development in the areas I've discussed increased. This could happen because the talent around him decreases (as you suggest) or because he is DEVELOPING new skills that temporarily make him worse statistically as he's no longer leaning on his old crutches, but make him a superior player in the long run. The corrolary is also true: his development can flatline while his statistics increase.

This is true of all players.

His accuracy on crossing patterns has definitely been something he needed to work on and IMO he has improved on this but again a more consistent WR corp would also help in that development.

Again, this is about completion %, not accuracy. If we're talking QB development I don't care if a WR drops or catches a ball, I care about where it was placed in relation to the receiver and defender. And if the WR isn't that great and there's only a small window for the completion I want to know if the QB is stepping into and manipulating the pocket to check his other reads, and if he doesn't, WHERE he is missing when throwing into tight coverage in relation to the defenders. Wilson is hot and cold with his ball placement; when he's cold the problem isn't that tight coverage results in incompletions, the problem is that when he's cold his ball placement is just way off regardless of if the coverage is tight or not.

Saying the O-line and receivers being poor should help his development is the only thing I take notice with. It ignores what makes good QB's good. Confidence. Confidence is not something you just get you have to get it from having success and that success needs to be consistent for you to believe in it. With a constant flux in the O-line and lacking true talent to at WR and TE you will be hard pressed to get that consistent success. If anything that is usually the reason QB's regress.

Again, you're talking about "consistent success." I'm not talking about success or stats. I'm talking about what Wilson DOES. There are skills QBs develop (or don't) which don't always lead to short term success (they're DEVELOPING the skills) and certainly don't mean a play will be succesful or not. They're the development of skills that predict success over the long haul.

And I know you don't want to hear this, but if Wilson's WRs are bad and they're not open when his right foot hits on a 3/5/7 drop, he has MORE opportunity to develop the skills of shifting forward into and manipulating the pocket as he goes through his reads.

If his O-line is leaky (another topic, I don't think it stands out as leaky; the sacks come from Wilson standing at the top of the pocket, relying on an internal clock instead of pressure still, and working his circus magic outside the pocket which too results in sacks sometimes) he also has more game-situation opportunities to feel pressure and to manipulate the pocket.

It is what it is.

Case and point. Keap last year when his O-line suffered. His performance decreased significantly and that was with a good running game and a significantly better receiving corp that Russell had.

You're still talking about performance. FWIW I'm different than most 9ers fans, in that for Kaep's 16 games when 9ers fans were going gaga I had significant concerns about developmental things he wasn't doing. Since last year when most 9ers fans have run at Kaepernick with pitchforks I've actually been impressed with his development in some areas that have always concerned me. His stats went down because they were leaning on him more, because the O-Line was in shambles and because he's DEVELOPING skills that if he attains will make him better in the long term. In my opinion, Kaep last year is a good example of a QB improving his skills while his stats also went down, and a good example of how most pundits and posters can't really tell the difference between QB ability and statistics.

He likes to use Drew Brees as an example because of similar size but Brees has way better receivers, O-line play and plays much easier defenses and yet still how did he do against us the last couple times he played us?

Again, I'm not talking stats. I'm talking about what Drew Brees DOES.

Also, FWIW, I think Brees makes his O-line and WRs look better than they are, not vice-versa.

It's pretty simple: Barring injury, name a WR who looked better or even nearly as good after playing with Brees, Brady, Rodgers or Manning than he did playing with one of those four guys. Name an O-Lineman who looked better or even nearly as good in pass-pro after playing with Brees, Brady, Rodgers or Manning than he did playing with one of those four guys.They don't exist.

Edit: I should also say that this last point isn't a knock on Wilson. As is documented in my posting here, I thought Golden Tate looked as good on the Seahawks as he does on the Lions. I was comparing him favorably to Hines Ward when he was on the Hawks. He was a guy who clearly was going to benefit from more volume, and always had the ability to handle a bigger role (another good example of people all too frequently confusing stats with ability; Tate hasn't improved on the Lions -- he's the exact same guy -- his stats are just better).