Russell Wilson: Report says he wants to explore options with

[keasley45]

as has been factually shown in this forum we lead the league in 3rd and long, every team PC has been an HC of in the NFL led the league in 3rd and long. Our conversion on 3rd down was worse under the 2 qbs prior to Wilson to include Hass.

and again all that aside IF and it's a big IF PC, Waldron and Wilson have come to an accord, and based on the last 2 games they might have we should be good, Given we were 63% on 3rd down.

I'll be honest, it's difficult to parse what you actually are saying here (especially the first sentence), but if we are talking about comparing Hass and Russ passing on 3rd down under Carroll, it doesn't look good for Russ.

For one, right off the bat, we should clarify that Matthew, even though he's my favorite Seahawk ever so it hurts me to say this, wasn't elite on converting on 3rd down in clear passing situations (which I define as 4 or more yards... basically when the D is going to play the pass more than the run). He was just slightly above NFL average for his career (just like Russ).

However, in 2010, in those 3rd down passing distance situations, when the Seahawks put it on Hass to convert with his arm, he did it 39% of the time compared to the NFL average of 32% of the time. In the mid-range situations (4-6 yards), where Russ gets most of his specific criticism, Hasselbeck converted 59% of the time, far and away better than the NFL average of 41% that year and both numbers easily surpassing his career average.

So, acutally, under Carroll, Matt did FAR better converting on 3rd down as a passer than he usually did, so no, Pete's philosophy didn't 'hold him back' in those circumstances.


And again, career for career, Matt and Russ convert in those circumstances about equally which, as I said, is just above NFL average. However, this year, in those circumstances, Russ as a passer converted below average on 3rd and 4+ and if you focus on 3rd and mid-range passing situations, Russ was WAY below the NFL average, scraping the bottom of the barrel. (He very well might have been the worst starter in the league).

So far, the best rate I can find for Russ converting on 3rd down passing situations is 2015... when the Seahawks were still near the bottom of the league in pass attempts and near the top of the league in rushing attempts. In other words, Russ does BEST as a passer when him throwing the ball isn't the engine that drives the offense.


Any team that wants the 'best' version of Russ is probably going to have do some version of the dreaded "Pete-Ball" to get it.

Helluva post, dude.

 

[keasley45]

Were Hass's stats for his career or just during his time as a starter in Seattle?

Been curious about his stats for a while.

And the Hass that Pete inherited was a few steps removed from the pre-injury, circa 2006 Hass, who when hot, could sling it with the best of them. Very Dave Kreig like in that way, but with bigger hands 8)

 

[toffee]

10 years of wanting him gone, and people will likely STILL not get their way. And when he finally IS gone, they get their way, all while the team wins maybe 6 games. I mean, you can just plug any old QB in there :?

Pure Gold

This narrative is so tired. Not everyone who is embracing the reality that he might not be here hates him or has the same fatalistic view of the future as those in the Russel camp.

And who said it's easy to get a franchise qb? There are questions around whether our philosophy is better suited for a Tannahill or Carr type QB vs an elite talent, but i dont think anyone is saying it's easy. Nor are the majority of people even saying Russ leaving is desirable. But he's the one not happy and pushing this ' I want to maximize my opportunity to win championships 'agenda. Not his o-line, not his RB, not his wr's who all work to help make him who he is.

The attempt to equate the perceived loyalty between ownership and players with that between players and team also misses the mark. The 53 men and practice squad players , their coaches and staff are who comprise the TEAM. It has been that way since the beginning of time. Cutting a player, or trading a player is every bit as necessary at times as a player deciding to leave his team for a better paying or potentially more fruitful opportunity. It's the business side of a franchise that relies on the reconciliation of balance sheets and elevating a franchise's bottom line.
If that reality isn't appealing to some, there's college football to watch. But the hammer coming down on a player on the Team vs a player saying to the team, 'yeah, thanks bro's, but I feel like I'd be better elsewhere, aren't remotely the same. And when the that RB, and WRs, and o-line are performing in a way that SHOULD allow us to be more successful than we are, but he chooses not to get on that bus, that's on him.

And that's why folks are at peace over him not being here. Not happy, not thankful, but at peace.

And it's why Pete, John and Jody look like they've had enough.

But hey, maybe they just hate him too.

You can put Angry Doug, and other players in the had enough camp too, talking out of both ends of his mouth gets old.

I have been of the opinion that watching Pete taking media hits and hearing Wilson wanting to be owner of a franchise gave Jody cold sweats. No reason why a private person like her would want to be the media target, she won't let Pete go until Wilson leaves. Don't believe me? Just survey dot net and see how many Jody hate threads by Camp unlimited.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

 

[toffee]

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

One thing we know for sure, with 100% certainty: We did not win super bowl after 2014 when team chemistry was in question.

One thing we don't know for sure: if we keep the defense instead Wilson, what will our records be.

 

[keasley45]

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

You can't be the reason a team is winning if you pass for 3rd downs at a success rate that's below average and last year, at the bottom of the league.
Nor can you be the reason for winning when the OC and HC have to implement a strategy that allows you to be successful.

Russel is great. He's a franchise qb. But the only way he can be seen as the reason for winning is if you throw out all he does that contributes to our struggles. And those things have been put on tape and in the stat book by Russ himself. Of course, to stick to the narrative, those things can be completely ignored as well.

 

[toffee]

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

You can't be the reason a team is winning if you pass for 3rd downs at a success rate that's below average and last year, at the bottom of the league.
Nor can you be the reason for winning when the OC and HC have to implement a strategy that allows you to be successful.

Russel is great. He's a franchise qb. But the only way he can be seen as the reason for winning is if you throw out all he does that contributes to our struggles. And those things have been put on tape and in the stat book by Russ himself. Of course, to stick to the narrative, those things can be completely ignored as well.

Gonna have some fun with ya by using prevailing rebuttal: Russell's lack of 3rd down success was due to Peteball!
Peteball has been choking Russ, preventing him from being his unlimited self. Don't even debate what's Peteball, as it's a moving target, there's no definition only adjectives such as antiquated.

 

[DarkVictory23]

Were Hass's stats for his career or just during his time as a starter in Seattle?

Been curious about his stats for a while.

And the Hass that Pete inherited was a few steps removed from the pre-injury, circa 2006 Hass, who when hot, could sling it with the best of them. Very Dave Kreig like in that way, but with bigger hands 8)

Matt's career numbers considered his whole career. I did a quick look at a couple of his non-Pete Seahawks seasons but they lined up pretty closely to his career numbers (just above NFL average in both situations) so as a quick look his season with Pete seemed to be a an outlier.

It really derails any point that Russ must suck as a third down passer because it's a 'product' of playing for Pete. I can't say for sure that those were Matt's best season numbers in those situations but I'd be surprised if they weren't.

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

Well, first, how we can say he is the difference between winning and losing? Like, how do we know that? Like, if everyone on the team hates Russ, then maybe he's killing team unity? Maybe an offense that feels more cohesive would look better with Jameis Winston than it would with Russell Wilson? If Russ is stalling our drives because he insists on waiting for that long developing deep shot instead of his wide-open primary on third down, maybe we'd actually be better with a Mariota who doesn't mind just handing the ball to an RB and throwing checkdowns as long as it means he gets to start?

And if the Niners and Titans are doing better with mid-tier QBs than we are with our 'elite' one, what does that say? You say he's better than those guys but we pay him like he's as good as Mahomes or Rodgers. But Mahomes just won a Super Bowl with a defense that's essentially a mirror of the one we have now that we just fired our defensive coordinator over. How do we know that our team wouldn't be better off with one of those guys if we can use that freed up salary to pay for other talent?

I mean, for some of the Wilson fans on this board it seems like Wilson's talent always seems to lie in this amorphous zone whereby it's crazy to compare him to mid-tier QBs because it's clear he's so much better than guys like Tannehill who just earned his team a bye-week but it's also ridiculous to expect him to be able to carry a team like a Brady or Mahomes (even though we pay him like he should).

And, for the record, I do personally think Russ is a better QB than guys like Garropolo or Tannehill, but just for fun I did a quick check to see Tannehill's numbers on third and mid-range this season and whereas Russ was basically a guaranteed punt when we asked him to pass in those situations, Tannehill was actually better than average.

 

[toffee]

Were Hass's stats for his career or just during his time as a starter in Seattle?

Been curious about his stats for a while.

And the Hass that Pete inherited was a few steps removed from the pre-injury, circa 2006 Hass, who when hot, could sling it with the best of them. Very Dave Kreig like in that way, but with bigger hands 8)

Matt's career numbers considered his whole career. I did a quick look at a couple of his non-Pete Seahawks seasons but they lined up pretty closely to his career numbers (just above NFL average in both situations) so as a quick look his season with Pete seemed to be a an outlier.

It really derails any point that Russ must suck as a third down passer because it's a 'product' of playing for Pete. I can't say for sure that those were Matt's best season numbers in those situations but I'd be surprised if they weren't.

Everyone on the team might hate Wilson and Doug Baldwin might be starting a blog right now talking about how much he despises Wilson. So what?

It does not matter because he is the reason we are winning. Or more accurately, the difference between winning and losing.

Right now, there is a thread talking about QBs we might be able to get instead. So far this murderer's row includes:

Kaepernick (spelling?)
Mariota
Winston

Carroll can barely win with Wilson, you think he can win with guys like the above?

.....



There is one team that can win with an iffy QB and they have one of the best DL in football, one of the best offensive minds in the NFL, and one of the most effective innovative rushing offenses. Your literal best-case scenario for any success with a middling QB is the 49ers, and they are at least one of the top teams in the league at other stuff.

Even then, the 49ers still have really no chance unless they are playing an overrated NFC Least team in the playoffs.

There is no pathway to success without a great QB anymore. None. One reason the Titans are being disregarded, because nobody thinks for a moment they have a real chance at a SB.
(I guess they have a 'chance' but not really....)

Well, first, how we can say he is the difference between winning and losing? Like, how do we know that? Like, if everyone on the team hates Russ, then maybe he's killing team unity? Maybe an offense that feels more cohesive would look better with Jameis Winston than it would with Russell Wilson? If Russ is stalling our drives because he insists on waiting for that long developing deep shot instead of his wide-open primary on third down, maybe we'd actually be better with a Mariota who doesn't mind just handing the ball to an RB and throwing checkdowns as long as it means he gets to start?

And if the Niners and Titans are doing better with mid-tier QBs than we are with our 'elite' one, what does that say? You say he's better than those guys but we pay him like he's as good as Mahomes or Rodgers. But Mahomes just won a Super Bowl with a defense that's essentially a mirror of the one we have now that we just fired our defensive coordinator over. How do we know that our team wouldn't be better off with one of those guys if we can use that freed up salary to pay for other talent?

I mean, for some of the Wilson fans on this board it seems like Wilson's talent always seems to lie in this amorphous zone whereby it's crazy to compare him to mid-tier QBs because it's clear he's so much better than guys like Tannehill who just earned his team a bye-week but it's also ridiculous to expect him to be able to carry a team like a Brady or Mahomes (even though we pay him like he should).

And, for the record, I do personally think Russ is a better QB than guys like Garropolo or Tannehill, but just for fun I did a quick check to see Tannehill's numbers on third and mid-range this season and whereas Russ was basically a guaranteed punt when we asked him to pass in those situations, Tannehill was actually better than average.

Nailed it.

As a Russell Wilson homer, I have no doubt that Russ is elite, and better than the mid tier QBs like Tannehill. here's the problem, he was a great Peteball QB, when he stepped out of the Peteball environment, he isn't as potent. Anyways, we shall find out when he starts with his new team, may be a freed Wilson could surprise us all?