Russell Wilson's Mind Games

[John63]

That's your opinion and that's fine.
Go Hawks

It's not an opinion, it is fact. Take the Blue and lime green glasses off and it is easy to see. What Kiwi said is absolutely correct. He's consistent and his aggregated stats look good, but he has not had a single season where you could place him as the uncontested top QB in the NFL. He is the Tortoise in the Tortoise and the Hare fable.

Hmm only player in NFL history to account for over 80% of the offensive yards and over 95% of offensive TDs, That was MVP worthy as most said, but he did not

Nope. For one the Seahawks didn't even make the playoffs that year, and two he fell off pretty hard near the end of the season. Not going to the playoffs is a non-starter for the MVP conversation. Brady also had a better TD to INT ratio while passing the ball more than Wilson, he also had a better completion percentage than Wilson along with better bulk stats.

Lol of course but even though most experts said he deserved it. Fyi players have won MVP without making playoffs, 2 doing something that has never been done in the nfl that was essential to you team trumps all that BS crap you are trying to peddle.

 

[balakoth]

That's your opinion and that's fine.
Go Hawks

It's not an opinion, it is fact. Take the Blue and lime green glasses off and it is easy to see. What Kiwi said is absolutely correct. He's consistent and his aggregated stats look good, but he has not had a single season where you could place him as the uncontested top QB in the NFL. He is the Tortoise in the Tortoise and the Hare fable.

Love this board for this very reason

No.... IT IS OPINION... ITS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SPEAKING.. IS OPINION....

NOT FACT...

PLEASE... Refer to a dictionary...

 

[Spin Doctor]

That's your opinion and that's fine.
Go Hawks

It's not an opinion, it is fact. Take the Blue and lime green glasses off and it is easy to see. What Kiwi said is absolutely correct. He's consistent and his aggregated stats look good, but he has not had a single season where you could place him as the uncontested top QB in the NFL. He is the Tortoise in the Tortoise and the Hare fable.

Love this board for this very reason

No.... IT IS OPINION... ITS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SPEAKING.. IS OPINION....

NOT FACT...

PLEASE... Refer to a dictionary...

It’s not “opinion” in each of his seasons there has been a player that has been statistically better than Wilson and post 2014 they generally were on a team with more wins as well. Those are cold hard facts. That isn’t a knock against Wilson either. There are other factors such as Carroll that play into this.

Generally the winner of the MVP is on a top team, and generally has the most gaudy numbers. Wilson has never really fit either of these metrics, except in this season. Though I think his last four weeks before the Carolina game cost him the MVP— unless the Ravens and Jackson really screw up.

 

[Smellyman]

The year Cam was MVP.

Wilson: 68.1 completion %, 4028 yards, 8.3 y/a, 34 TD’s, 8interceptions, 110.1 rating, 553 rush yards, 5.8 y/c and 1 td

Cam: 59.8 completion %, 3837 yards, 7.8 y/a, 35 TD’s, 10 interceptions, 99.4 rating, 636 rush yards, 4.8 y/c and 10 TD’s

That's not worthy of a vote?

Yeah Cam had a lot of 1 yard rush TDs but RW had the better year imo.

 

[Spin Doctor]

The year Cam was MVP.

Wilson: 68.1 completion %, 4028 yards, 8.3 y/a, 34 TD’s, 8interceptions, 110.1 rating, 553 rush yards, 5.8 y/c and 1 td

Cam: 59.8 completion %, 3837 yards, 7.8 y/a, 35 TD’s, 10 interceptions, 99.4 rating, 636 rush yards, 4.8 y/c and 10 TD’s

That's not worthy of a vote?

Yeah Cam had a lot of 1 yard rush TDs but RW had the better year imo.

The Panthers were a 15-1 team which plays heavily into MVP voting. Cam Newton also statistically had 45 TDs vs Wilson's 35. Cam had the most TDs that year and he was on the team with the best record. That right there is slam dunk MVP status. The Seahawks by contrast were 10-6. Newton also had more 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives that season than Wilson did.

So Cam Newton had 10 more overall TDs, similarish total yardage, and 1 more 4th quarter comeback as well as 2 more game winning drives than Wilson did in 2015 -- plus Cam was on the most winningest team in the NFL. Another factor we also must consider is that Cam Newton and the Panthers beat the Seahawks in a head to head match-up.

Tom Brady is also another QB that could have potentially grabbed the MVP that year. Tom Brady had 39 overall touchdowns compared to Wilsons 35 overall touchdowns, as well as having 240 overall yards, less interceptions, and 4 more touchdowns.

Ultimately the MVP went to the guy that had the most touchdowns on the most winningest team. If we go by statistics alone Tom Brady should have probably should have won, but they also play heavily into team record(not saying that is right). Wilson was good that season, but there was two other guys that could have rightfully claimed MVP as well -- both of them also were on teams with better records, and both of them had more touchdowns than Wilson and in Brady's case he had less turnovers as well. Wilson's team also lost in a head to head against Cam Newtons team, the Panthers. Those kinds of things weigh on voters.

Wilson was right in there with them but when we weigh all the factors he didn't do enough to differentiate himself from the other two contenders in that particular season. Again, not necessarily Wilson's fault. Carroll is the biggest thing gating Wilson from winning a MVP. The beginning of that season was not good for Wilson. Mostly because we were running the Carroll special. When we broke out of that Wilson was dominating. If it was just the second half of the season Wilson would be the run away MVP.

Still to this day I think that second half of 2015 was Wilson's peak QB play, and during that second half of the season he definitely was the best QB. Unfortunately his first quarter and a half of the season was lackluster. Whenever we break the reigns off of this offense this is what happens. Unfortunately Carroll is holding our Quarterback back with his offense. Would love to see what he could do in Andy Reids offense. This is why Wilson hasn't won MVP, not because of his own play, but because of his head coaches tendency to revert back to an antiquated style of offense.

 

[OpHawk]

The thing is, to be All Pro, you have to be the best or second-best at your position in the NFL.

Last year when Mahomes threw for 5000+ yards and 50 TDs, would you put Wilson's 3500 yards and 35 TDs ahead of him?

Wilson has only been #1 in 3 QB categories in his career: QB Rating in 2015, Sack yards in 2016 (that's a bad thing), and TDs in 2017.

While his aggregate numbers are amazing, there always seems to be someone who out-performs him in any given single season.

He's losing the sprints, but winning the marathon.

This is exactly right.

 

[Mad Dog]

Wilson's lack of MVP votes is for the same reason Pete and John have also not won season awards. Awards go for big highs not steady and persistent performance.

So the team that goes from 2-14 to 14-2 is going to get more attention than the team that goes from 10-6 to 13-3. The QB that has a career year with 40-50 TDs is going to get more attention than the guy that throws 35 every year.

And I'm not complaining. I think any reasonable fan understands that its far better to have consistent winners than flash in the pans. I think that's what the HoF is for. Recognize those consistent winning players and coaches.

 

[sutz]

IIRC, having a league MVP on the team does not equate to winning Super Bowls very often.

 

[John63]

The year Cam was MVP.

Wilson: 68.1 completion %, 4028 yards, 8.3 y/a, 34 TD’s, 8interceptions, 110.1 rating, 553 rush yards, 5.8 y/c and 1 td

Cam: 59.8 completion %, 3837 yards, 7.8 y/a, 35 TD’s, 10 interceptions, 99.4 rating, 636 rush yards, 4.8 y/c and 10 TD’s

That's not worthy of a vote?

Yeah Cam had a lot of 1 yard rush TDs but RW had the better year imo.

In the end at this point it is all opinion your and mine were we see were he should at least gotten some votes and Spins who thinks he has never been close.

 

[Ad Hawk]

We have different standards of what constitutes MVP.

Thus the differences of opinion (not facts).

 

[Scorpion05]

The thing is, to be All Pro, you have to be the best or second-best at your position in the NFL.

Last year when Mahomes threw for 5000+ yards and 50 TDs, would you put Wilson's 3500 yards and 35 TDs ahead of him?

Wilson has only been #1 in 3 QB categories in his career: QB Rating in 2015, Sack yards in 2016 (that's a bad thing), and TDs in 2017.

While his aggregate numbers are amazing, there always seems to be someone who out-performs him in any given single season.

He's losing the sprints, but winning the marathon.

So you don't think it's odd he's never been first or even second all pro in 2015, 2017, or 2018?

Drew Brees was second team last year, and was hardly the leader in any specific category. So how has Russ not received one vote?

Even one person in the article admitted he's overlooked Russell for years. I know there's a reflex to dismiss any complaints of unfairness. But it's okay to just acknowledge it sometimes. Bias exists, and bias has existed towards this entire franchise for sometime. if for no other reason than location

 

[Scorpion05]

That's your opinion and that's fine.
Go Hawks

It's not an opinion, it is fact. Take the Blue and lime green glasses off and it is easy to see. What Kiwi said is absolutely correct. He's consistent and his aggregated stats look good, but he has not had a single season where you could place him as the uncontested top QB in the NFL. He is the Tortoise in the Tortoise and the Hare fable.

To be clear, you're not just here to win an argument right? You're actually here to debate the facts...fairly? Because if others have blue and lime green glasses on, it seems you need to take off the contrarian glasses as well.

No one is saying Wilson should have categorically won MVP in previous years. But the idea that you're excusing the fact that he's never gotten ONE MVP or All Pro vote is a very weak argument. Let's review some aspects of your argument:

2016 MVP votes:

Matt Ryan -- 24
Tom Brady -- 20
Aaron Rodgers -- 14
Ezekiel Elliott -- 9
Le'veon Bell -- 8

Matt Ryan that year had 38 TDs on an 11-5 team. He absolutely deserved it. Tom Brady got TWENTY votes despite only having 28 touchdowns. Twenty. Explain that, since you're so dismissive of Russell being overlooked.

In 2015, Cam deserved the MVP, despite having 14 turnovers that year. But guess what? Even Carson Palmer got ONE vote.

In 2017, Carson Wentz, who didn't even finish the season got 2 votes. If Russell didn't finish the season and people argued he should have gotten votes, you and others here might argue that there was a clear reason for that.

Last year, Mahomes clearly deserved MVP. Drew Brees still received EIGHT votes. He finished behind Russell in passing TDs by the way, and they had close to the same amount of total yardage. Compared to Brees, Russell was on a rebuilding team.

There are plenty of examples of MVP votes not going to simply the highest scoring player on the winningest team. As I showed in 2016, Rodgers got 14 votes. He actually outperformed Matt Ryan statistically that year.

Point is, the fact that Russell has never, not once gotten an MVP vote does not add up. So no, it is not a cold hard fact. To suggest he didn't deserve even a single vote for second team all-pro or MVP in 2015, 2017, or 2018 is a silly argument. You can argue he shouldn't have won MVP, but not getting a single MVP vote is not consistent with his performance and the other players throughout history who have gotten at least ONE VOTE

 

[Scorpion05]

Just think how amazingly stupid it is that he has never once received an MVP vote? Never once been All Pro? Next level hilarious. I wonder what excuses they will use when he's at his HOF speech. He'll show class I'm sure, unlike the many many many media members who have chosen to ignore what's right in front of them. Oh well, you just keep winning Russ, many of us actually get it :irishdrinkers:

We've (most of us) loved him around here since day 1, and rightfully so!

But really, he elevated himself to this conversation, legitimately, in the last few seasons.He's playing at a different level than he was in his first couple seasons. And as mentioned, there are quite a few QB's in this league who are really, really good.

This year, being in the MVP race for much of the year has changed his perception around the league for good I think. He keeps playing at this elevated level and the personal accolades are going to come. He is right there in the top 3.

Sure he is, but people were dismissing Russell's performance even in his rookie season.

In 2012, Russell had 30 touchdowns and 3607 yards.That was dismissed as an average performance and he was simply a game manager. Despite performing similarly to Luck and Griffin that year.

In 2013 he performed similar.

In 2014, he threw for 3475 yards, and ran for 849 yards. Unlike Lamar however, he wasn't given credit for his rushing yards. Combined, that's 4324 yards, more yards overall than Lamar may actually finish with this season.

So Russell scores for 30 touchdowns in his rookie season, runs for 849 yards in his 3rd season, and yet he didn't begin to shake the "game manager" label until 2015 (some might argue 2017). Why is that? Could it be that he was, in fact overlooked constantly? If you take his performance, year by year, and compare it to the league, it makes zero sense why it took him 8 years to get respect. He should have been getting respect since year 1.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

^^^^ A lot of it simply rests on the fact that he was a 3rd round draft choice and the preconceived notions that go along with that. Remember that HOF genius Bill Polian said he'd be nothing more than a career backup. (Polian also said Lamar should switch to WR btw)