Slow Start on Offense Could Be Pete Carroll's Issue

[brimsalabim]

I have never been about the play calling when I am critical of Wilson's slow starts. For instance, I know that we kick when we win the toss, while other teams receive, so I expect us to have fewer possessions in the first quarter. No problem there.

My issue is purely with execution. Accuracy issues, not finding the open receiver, not making the right choice on option plays, holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks.

Regardless of the stats, just watch the tape and you'll see what I am talking about. QB ratings ignore when your QB back-peddles 20 yards and gets flagged for intentional grounding or when you always hand off the read option to the extent that the defense no longer respects it, or when you overlook a wide open receiver or under-throw a deep pass that should have been intercepted but somehow wasn't.

I get the philosophy of deferring the opening possession in favour of the 2nd half opening one. I get the "establish the run" mentality. I totally get the "don't turn it over - a loss is better than a pick" thing. I just with Wilson would execute the first half like he does in the second.

Through half of the second quarter Wilson was four of six passing. The slow start was not Wilson.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

With 2 drops (Rawls and LockettE)

 

[LoneHawkFan]

I have never been about the play calling when I am critical of Wilson's slow starts. For instance, I know that we kick when we win the toss, while other teams receive, so I expect us to have fewer possessions in the first quarter. No problem there.

My issue is purely with execution. Accuracy issues, not finding the open receiver, not making the right choice on option plays, holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks.

Regardless of the stats, just watch the tape and you'll see what I am talking about. QB ratings ignore when your QB back-peddles 20 yards and gets flagged for intentional grounding or when you always hand off the read option to the extent that the defense no longer respects it, or when you overlook a wide open receiver or under-throw a deep pass that should have been intercepted but somehow wasn't.

I get the philosophy of deferring the opening possession in favour of the 2nd half opening one. I get the "establish the run" mentality. I totally get the "don't turn it over - a loss is better than a pick" thing. I just with Wilson would execute the first half like he does in the second.

A few things here. Russell missed a couple of reads yesterday; one in particular on the 2nd sack he had two crosses open: Kearse and Graham...but decided to run it. And the RO was a rare (non) keep in the first half.

Are we sure that this isn't by design? Part of the "study" is figuring out all of this: how the routes get covered by the different defenses, how the OLine is blocking; how the DLine is rushing, etc...setting up the RO. We've heard Pete talk about the "data" several times over the years...

It's an odd brand of football, and frustrating, but I believe it's more by design than by poor QB play.

I will say this though. We have one of the best young, quickest, and shiftiest WR's in the league...yet we throw the bubble screen to Kearse. Kearse needs to be the blocker on that play with the bubble going to Lockett. Tate burned with the bubble last night. I miss having that kid on this team. But I think Lockett is a great fill for that role.

 

[theincrediblesok]

I have never been about the play calling when I am critical of Wilson's slow starts. For instance, I know that we kick when we win the toss, while other teams receive, so I expect us to have fewer possessions in the first quarter. No problem there.

My issue is purely with execution. Accuracy issues, not finding the open receiver, not making the right choice on option plays, holding onto the ball too long and taking too many sacks.

Regardless of the stats, just watch the tape and you'll see what I am talking about. QB ratings ignore when your QB back-peddles 20 yards and gets flagged for intentional grounding or when you always hand off the read option to the extent that the defense no longer respects it, or when you overlook a wide open receiver or under-throw a deep pass that should have been intercepted but somehow wasn't.

I get the philosophy of deferring the opening possession in favour of the 2nd half opening one. I get the "establish the run" mentality. I totally get the "don't turn it over - a loss is better than a pick" thing. I just with Wilson would execute the first half like he does in the second.

Through half of the second quarter Wilson was four of six passing. The slow start was not Wilson.

For the last 3 years or so for most of the game, there has been more runs than passes in the 1st half. It always seem to be run run pass. So Wilson would have to execute it almost perfectly every time to get the conversion. So Wilson doesn't get as much chances to pass in the first, it starts with the run game first and if that doesn't work then they let Wilson pass it more, which always shows itself in the 2nd half. Could it be a rhythm thing, sure you need live reps to get the timing right especially when your playing with pressure coming from all angles especially when your O-line can't pass protect. Wilson takes all the blame himself even if the O-line isn't doing well but don't let that be an admission of him failing at his job. If the accuracy decline is on Wilson could the talent decline of the O-line be contributing to it be a factor, and I would say yes, and the effort of Graham blocking on certain plays could also be a factor as well.

How many read options were there with Rawls and Wilson I didn't see one, and Rawls was able to slash and dash his way in.

I can agree that it's player's execution but don't act like the tape tells us everything. Unless you know the actual playcalling and who that ball was going to, we can only assume that he was making the wrong choices on those specific plays. Yes he misses open receivers, yes he under-throws/over-throw, but is he the only QB to do that? He's not perfect but don't make it seem like everyone else around him is perfect and he's the main one making all the mistakes.

 

[mrblitz]

the thing is, with a better 1st-half offense, we might already have 3 super bowl wins, and people would be arguing that this team is the greatest of all time... seahawks would be spanking every opponent.

 

[StoneCold]

Pete didn't make Lockette and Rawls drop first down passes, and he didn't make Russ skip passing to the short middle on third down so he could scramble for no gain on third down.

Some of the slow start was on the players.

This. The passes to both Lockette and Rawls should have been caught, and if they were we likely don't have this conversation. That scramble for no gain was a head scratcher. Russell does seem tentative in the first half and that might be Pete keeping the reigns on him and stressing, "No Turnovers". Then in the second half they release a few of the hounds and get it going.

 

[bjornanderson21]

Anyone who is telling themselves that our slow starts are beneficial is fooling themselves.

You don't have to run bad plays to get info on the other team's formations and schemes.

You dont have to sacrifice the first half to have a good 2nd half.

The Hawks would win more games if we didn't suck in the 1st half.

Take away our bad first halves and we mightve gone 16-0 two seasons in a row.

It is absolutely advantageous to play well both halves instead of just the 2nd half.

 

[marko358]

Pete didn't make Lockette and Rawls drop first down passes, and he didn't make Russ skip passing to the short middle on third down so he could scramble for no gain on third down.

Some of the slow start was on the players.

This. The passes to both Lockette and Rawls should have been caught...

Why Ricardo Lockette is even featured in this offense is completely dumbfounding. The guy is a #6 WR, if that. In fact, with his 15 yard penalties every other game and no impact on special teams, I wonder why he's even on this team.

 

[JaiSeaSea]

So the thought is that the team ought to be more aggressive and play in the first half the way they do in the second half instead of feeling out the opponent in the first half and making halftime adjustments?

Because the way Carroll is doing it has gotten us to back to back Super Bowls.

I agree, it's frustrating. But I think it's hardest on those fans in the game forum who give up at halftime or the third quarter when the team is just catching on fire. This team is never out of it and GB's 10 pt win was the most of the Russell Wilson era and the first double digit loss of his career. It only happened because of a late game pick. In Lambeau.

From the minute Carroll got here, we - myself included - complained that "if only Carroll's initial gameplan was as good as his halftime adjustments." Well, guess what people? He was feeling out the other team from day one. It's how Pete plays the game.

And so far it's worked FANTASTIC.

They've said our offense was crap every year. EVERY YEAR. Remember we stumbled into the playoffs looking so beatable in 2013? And people continued to say we weren't that good. Our offense wasn't good enough (4th best offense that year). Yet everyone saying it wasn't good enough. Because Carroll's tactics LOOK awful and are hard to watch. Feel out the opponent, make excellent halftime adjustments, win game. Is the game won in the first quarter? No. Is it won in the second quarter? No. When is the game won? In the 4th quarter.

It works and Pete Carroll isn't going to change his philosophy after back to back SB's. So might as well quit bitching and moaning about it and get used to it.

This is what I think. I think the slow start is somewhat by design. Not that the team tries to get behind in the fist half but more as a gauge to make adjustments and try to blow the doors off in the 3rd and maintain lead in the 4th. Maybe he figures teams have a harder time adjusting in the fly. It doesn't always work obviously, but it works a lot.

 

[themunn]

One key reason that we always wait until halftime to adjust is because it doesn't give the opposition halftime to make adjustments to what we're doing.

If you show your hand in the first or second quarter then they can study that through halftime and make the necessary adjustments. How many times have you seen us come out in the second half and the opposition have no clue how to deal with our offense? It's because they DON'T have a clue and they don't have time to work it out.

It's such a simple strategy but it's one that's ignored. Our 25 scripted plays also give us the opportunity to send out various looks so that we can say "OK, on this look they're doing this, on this look they're doing this". Then we look at it and come into the second half (usually receiving the ball first as we always defer when we win the toss, and most teams opt to receive first), and start to pick the opposition apart as we've identified the weaknesses in their gameplan. On the other hand they're now seeing our full playbook for the first time and have to adjust on the fly, which is far harder.

 

[Sarlacc83]

I would also venture to say that, despite his reputation for hormonal decisions, Pete is a very conservative coach. Whereas most coaches want to run more plays (especially on offense) Pete wants to run fewer. Which has some benefits in terms of team health but also leads to aggravation in an NFL world that has incorporated the Kelly offense.

 

[byau]

I get it.. the slow starts are frustrating, and it would probably be a much more relaxing experience to be out in front by a comfortable margin at the half.. but how often has this team been behind by more than a possession at the half? It's very, very rare.

.

This is a great thread, and very smart too. This team right now is very strategic and not a blowout type team. If you follow UFC/MMA, it's basically Georges St. Pierre, a fighter that used to just beat people but he slowly morphed into a very strategic, very prepared fighter. Which also meant his fights usually went the distance, became very boring, but he pretty much always won.

One gameplan he had against another fighter, BJ Penn, known for his striking ability and submission skills, was to continue to try to rush him and take him down. BJ Penn was very good at takedown defense, however, Georges talked later that in their game planning he noticed BJ's shoulders were 1) very sizable, and 2) drove a lot of his punching power. Forcing him into takedown defense tired out his shoulders quicker. So while the first two rounds were pretty even with Georges trying to take BJ down, and BJ being able to defend, by round 3 he was tuckered out and couldn't punch and couldn't defend takedowns anymore.

Georges eventually won in round 4 (I think?) when BJ couldn't defend himself anymore

Fairly methodical, and probably pretty boring, but gets results

I can imagine very frustrating too if you're not used to seeing this type of thing.

Also frustrating when it doesn't work, but that's why we have always stayed close in games we've lost. And when the plan works earlier, it's a 3+ touchdown win

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Pete didn't make Lockette and Rawls drop first down passes, and he didn't make Russ skip passing to the short middle on third down so he could scramble for no gain on third down.

Some of the slow start was on the players.

This is the thing for me.

I'm not so much frustrated with the lack of points in the first half as I am with how out of sync, the number of mistakes and penalties our offense seems to commit in the 1st half vs. 2nd half.

Just takes FOREVER for this offense to get into sync, and that's confusing to me. Maybe it is Pete telling Russell and Bevell to slow things down and play conservative until he sees how the game's playing out. But it's frustrating as hell to watch.

 

[marko358]

I'm not so much frustrated with the lack of points in the first half as I am with how out of sync, the number of mistakes and penalties our offense seems to commit in the 1st half vs. 2nd half.

And we seemingly waste at least one timeout per game for 12 men on the field and other boneheaded reasons.

 

[AVL]

I use to blame Wilson, accusing him of a final drive addiction, but Cable laid out the situation a while back. They do this crap on purpose!

 

[Ambrose83]

am I the only one that thinks playing 2 good quarters of offense is a stupid idea? it seems like the first half is practice... I also want bigger leads....

 

[KiwiHawk]

Yes he misses open receivers, yes he under-throws/over-throw, but is he the only QB to do that?

We're not paying him $87 million to be just like other QBs.

He wanted elite money, he got elite money, so the expectation is an elite performance.

I do get all the arguments presented in this thread - he's generally accurate (which misses the unnecessary sacks he takes and the times he runs the ball because he didn't see the open receiver). Even with slow starts we're rarely very far behind at halftime (#1 defense does have a tendency to keep you in games), and of course the thrilling game-winning drives (although we would not need them without digging a hole early).

I'm using a higher standard because Wilson insisted he was worth a top-tier pay grade with all the cap consequences that come with it. He needs to perform to that level for all this to work.

We really don't have games to give. Green Bay doesn't look like losing many games, and we already showed we couldn't win at Lambeau.

We have the opportunity to win the 50th anniversary Super Bowl on the home field of one of our greatest rivals, and I will not see it excused away because "other QBs do it too".

If other guys do it to, we could have one of those guys and use the extra money for an offensive line. We're paying our guy NOT to be average.

 

[Recon_Hawk]

I like the analogy used above comparing this team to a UFC fighter or boxer.

Pete wants to go 12 rounds in each and every game because he feels that by the time the team hits the end of the game, when the opposing team is tired and unsure where the ball is going, they will exploit your mistakes. They will do exactly what they did in the first half, but when you least expect it, BAM they go play-action and throw a 40 yard bomb. You think Russell will hand off the ball to Lynch because he did the first 3 quarters? BAM he keeps it for 20 yards on the read option to get a key first down.

It feels like fans want the Hawks to be Mike Tyson when we're not. The team isn't looking for the knockout punch in the first few rounds. Especially against a crappy Bears team they KNOW they can beat after 4 quarters. And that's exactly what Pete said on Monday's 710 interview. Trying to win the game in the first quarter is how you let a bad team like the Bears have a chance and it's how you make it near impossible to beat a good team if/when that knockout approach backfires.

 

[SeatownJay]

This is interesting.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FieldGulls/status/648971883023470592[/tweet]

Carroll basically admits he uses the first half of games for information gathering purposes.

 

[Grahamhawker]

I think what it boils down to is that fans want blowout, or at least the early knock out wins. Pete is fine with 26-0 wins against struggling teams, or 4th quarter pull-aways from better teams, or last drive wins for that matter. Pete has it all figured out, bro!