The Front Office Rolled The Dice With The OL And ...

[Northwest Seahawk]

snake-eyes came up -- an injured, ineffectual bunch with no prospect in the near future and very little in the long-term AND their ineffectiveness has led to our once-in-a-generation QB being injured to an extent that we may never again see the elite speed, skill and evasiveness that made him so special.

My vote -- sit RW until he has completely recovered, play the rookie backup with the OL mediocrities and take our lumps -- DO NOT trade a draft pick for a short-term fix.

What would you have done differently in the off-season regarding the OL?

That's not a snarky question by the way, I'm interested.

It's just because they took a first round OL and it's not like Okung is playing brilliantly in Denver (and might've decided to move on whatever the situation because of his whole 'saving face' on the agent thing).

I want to know what the gamble was. For me, they were left trying to find solutions to a bad situation that was kind of inevitable.

Cutting Lewis was an idiotic move . I could go deeper into all the moves I disagree with in the off season but that one in particular was a stupid move period. Lewis is be better option at Center or Guard than Britt or Glowinski. Cable needs to be fired. They have glaring deficiencies at WR as well . I'm not sure what there record will be at the end of the year but they have some serious problems right now with that O-line and Wilson's health.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Didn't need to resign Kearse fwiw.

I like him, just looks like it was the wrong spot to pay.

Pete's problem is he trys to make everyone happy when it's unrealistic to having a winning team.

Are you seriously suggesting Pete Carroll is working to the detriment of the overall cause by 'trying to make everybody happy'?

Was he trying to make everybody happy when he let Okung walk? Or Golden Tate? Or when they let Kam Chancellor holdout and didn't budge?

Deary me.

Cutting Lewis was an idiotic move . I could go deeper into all the moves I disagree with in the off season but that one in particular was a stupid move period. Lewis is be better option at Center or Guard than Britt or Glowinski. Cable needs to be fired. They have glaring deficiencies at WR as well . I'm not sure what there record will be at the end of the year but they have some serious problems right now with that O-line and Wilson's health.

Britt is playing lights out at center.

But A* for the 'fire X coach' post loss rant.

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

Which O-liner should we be paying instead?

 

[CodeWarrior]

JS refuses to pay or draft OL that are not worth the pay or the draft pick. He's on record that he believes that the Tackle market is severely bloated and the talent of OL coming out of college is watered down and there are rare occasions when some are worth high first round grades (paraphrasing).

I remember when drafting linemen use to be almost a sure thing, now not so much. So unless we can find gems, this organization absolutely refuses to overpay OL and probably wont change until PC and JS are gone.

This type of approach leads to the product we are seeing on the field. Not just this year, but last year as well. It is a recurring problem. Categorizing the state of the OL as unavoidable based on a dearth of talent coming out of college/unwillingness to overpay/overdraft is an unacceptable response. The tackle market is "bloated" because it is a crucial position.

I see what PC/JS are going for, the only problem is that it doesn't work and is hurting this team.

 

[CodeWarrior]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

Which O-liner should we be paying instead?

As I stated above:

Retain Okung, never sign Webb, and have Ifedi playing RT. This team's outright refusal to address the tackle positions adequately is unacceptable.

 

[HawkFan72]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

Which O-liner should we be paying instead?

As I stated above:

Retain Okung, never sign Webb, and have Ifedi playing RT. This team's outright refusal to address the tackle positions adequately is unacceptable.

Yup. A lot of O-line talent has walked out the door and the Seahawks have done nothing to retain it. Then the money that could be used for O-line is wasted in other areas to become dead money or on O-linemen who don't even play.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

And now that Graham and Baldwin are healthy and on the field together...



3 times in the last 3 games.

On pace for 27 on the year, a career low.

Near bottom of the league. Against some of the league's very best defensive lines. Go look it up.

"But he's probably been hit a lot," you might say. Not really, 42 times...right in the middle of the league in terms of QB hits. On pace for 96 hits, pretty much on par with his 2013 and 2014 seasons, and better than his 2015 season (114).

"But sacks are always an injury concern," you might say. What's your point? A QB is gonna get sacked. That's a given. All they can do is minimize the number of sacks, and again, the Seahawks are doing better at that than almost anyone else in the league. 12 sacks. Only 6 QBs in the league have fewer. It does suck that Wilson got injured on a sack, but if it happened during a season of fewer sacks than any other, it's hard to blame the line. It's just a roll of the dice.

 

[CodeWarrior]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

And now that Graham and Baldwin are healthy and on the field together...



3 times in the last 3 games.

On pace for 27 on the year, a career low.

Near bottom of the league. Against some of the league's very best defensive lines. Go look it up.

"But he's probably been hit a lot," you might say. Not really, 42 times...right in the middle of the league in terms of QB hits. On pace for 96 hits, pretty much on par with his 2013 and 2014 seasons, and better than his 2015 season (114).

"But sacks are always an injury concern," you might say. What's your point? A QB is gonna get sacked. That's a given. All they can do is minimize the number of sacks, and again, the Seahawks are doing better at that than almost anyone else in the league. 12 sacks. Only 6 QBs in the league have fewer. It does suck that Wilson got injured on a sack, but if it happened during a season of fewer sacks than any other, it's hard to blame the line. It's just a roll of the dice.

This is incredibly myopic. Sacks and QB hits only tell a very partial story. Russell is getting the ball out in record time because if he doesn't he'll get killed. We can't run the ball and we aren't able to run any long developing plays as the OL doesn't afford the time. What are we left with? A middling series of dump-offs, quick slants, and out routes that don't scare anyone.

Please just answer this: do you approve of this team's approach to the offensive line?

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

Which O-liner should we be paying instead?

As I stated above:

Retain Okung, never sign Webb, and have Ifedi playing RT. This team's outright refusal to address the tackle positions adequately is unacceptable.

I'm not seeing anything from Okung in Denver to wish he was still here.

And I'm not convinced he ever intended to stay here. His decision to go agent-free and the subsequent lack of offers looked like an episode of trying to save face. Returning to Seattle for peanuts possibly was never an option in his mind.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

And now that Graham and Baldwin are healthy and on the field together...



3 times in the last 3 games.

On pace for 27 on the year, a career low.

Near bottom of the league. Against some of the league's very best defensive lines. Go look it up.

"But he's probably been hit a lot," you might say. Not really, 42 times...right in the middle of the league in terms of QB hits. On pace for 96 hits, pretty much on par with his 2013 and 2014 seasons, and better than his 2015 season (114).

"But sacks are always an injury concern," you might say. What's your point? A QB is gonna get sacked. That's a given. All they can do is minimize the number of sacks, and again, the Seahawks are doing better at that than almost anyone else in the league. 12 sacks. Only 6 QBs in the league have fewer. It does suck that Wilson got injured on a sack, but if it happened during a season of fewer sacks than any other, it's hard to blame the line. It's just a roll of the dice.

A lot of sense here from Montana. I made the list last week. Virtually every QB in the NFL has had a serious injury at some point. They're hit every week. Dallas' O-line hasn't stopped Romo getting blasted. Joe Thomas protected his 5th QB of the year last week.

What we've seen this year is pretty much what every team is dealing with week in week out. The one area Seattle is struggling in is the run game. And when you only run the ball three times in the first half -- is that on the OL?

 

[pcbball12]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

And now that Graham and Baldwin are healthy and on the field together...



3 times in the last 3 games.

On pace for 27 on the year, a career low.

Near bottom of the league. Against some of the league's very best defensive lines. Go look it up.

"But he's probably been hit a lot," you might say. Not really, 42 times...right in the middle of the league in terms of QB hits. On pace for 96 hits, pretty much on par with his 2013 and 2014 seasons, and better than his 2015 season (114).

"But sacks are always an injury concern," you might say. What's your point? A QB is gonna get sacked. That's a given. All they can do is minimize the number of sacks, and again, the Seahawks are doing better at that than almost anyone else in the league. 12 sacks. Only 6 QBs in the league have fewer. It does suck that Wilson got injured on a sack, but if it happened during a season of fewer sacks than any other, it's hard to blame the line. It's just a roll of the dice.

A lot of sense here from Montana. I made the list last week. Virtually every QB in the NFL has had a serious injury at some point. They're hit every week. Dallas' O-line hasn't stopped Romo getting blasted. Joe Thomas protected his 5th QB of the year last week.

What we've seen this year is pretty much what every team is dealing with week in week out. The one area Seattle is struggling in is the run game. And when you only run the ball three times in the first half -- is that on the OL?

Said this in another thread, but it is really hard to get the run game going (or even attempt to run the ball) when you are playing from 1st and 20, 2nd and 25 because of stupid penalties. I think they would have liked to run the ball a lot more in the 1st half, but situations kind of dictated that they couldn't. Need to stop shooting themselves in the foot and staling drives.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The combined cap hit of Graham and Baldwin is $17M. That's almost twice what we pay the entire offensive line, which comes in at $9.047M for all 10 OL personnel. If you reduce it to just the starters all we pay the OL is $4.66M.

Yes we effectively pay Graham and Baldwin 4x what we pay the starting offensive line.

And now that Graham and Baldwin are healthy and on the field together...



3 times in the last 3 games.

On pace for 27 on the year, a career low.

Near bottom of the league. Against some of the league's very best defensive lines. Go look it up.

"But he's probably been hit a lot," you might say. Not really, 42 times...right in the middle of the league in terms of QB hits. On pace for 96 hits, pretty much on par with his 2013 and 2014 seasons, and better than his 2015 season (114).

"But sacks are always an injury concern," you might say. What's your point? A QB is gonna get sacked. That's a given. All they can do is minimize the number of sacks, and again, the Seahawks are doing better at that than almost anyone else in the league. 12 sacks. Only 6 QBs in the league have fewer. It does suck that Wilson got injured on a sack, but if it happened during a season of fewer sacks than any other, it's hard to blame the line. It's just a roll of the dice.

This is incredibly myopic. Sacks and QB hits only tell a very partial story. Russell is getting the ball out in record time because if he doesn't he'll get killed. We can't run the ball and we aren't able to run any long developing plays as the OL doesn't afford the time. What are we left with? A middling series of dump-offs, quick slants, and out routes that don't scare anyone.

Please just answer this: do you approve of this team's approach to the offensive line?

We make the playoffs every year. I find it pretty hard to argue with that.

So, yes.

Although...I'd be happy to replace Bradley Sowell.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

We need a good guard, move Ifedi to RT and go with Fant at LT and we are set.....it's not far away folks....we have bigger issues at WR with no upside or explosive plays.....

 

[CodeWarrior]

Please just answer this: do you approve of this team's approach to the offensive line?

We make the playoffs every year. I find it pretty hard to argue with that.

So, yes.

Although...I'd be happy to replace Bradley Sowell.

The current approach to the offensive line only took shape in the 2015 season when we were 30th in OL spending. For the 2014 season we were 11th in OL spending and for the 2013 season, the year we won the super bowl, we had the highest paid line in the league.

The only seasons for which we can evaluate the current OL approach are 2015 and 2016 and the problems with this team remain consistent throughout them.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Please just answer this: do you approve of this team's approach to the offensive line?

We make the playoffs every year. I find it pretty hard to argue with that.

So, yes.

Although...I'd be happy to replace Bradley Sowell.

The current approach to the offensive line only took shape in the 2015 season when we were 30th in OL spending. For the 2014 season we were 11th in OL spending and for the 2013 season, the year we won the super bowl, we had the highest paid line in the league.

The only seasons for which we can evaluate the current OL approach are 2015 and 2016 and the problems with this team remain consistent throughout them.

Yeah, right down to constantly winning.

 

[CodeWarrior]

Please just answer this: do you approve of this team's approach to the offensive line?

We make the playoffs every year. I find it pretty hard to argue with that.

So, yes.

Although...I'd be happy to replace Bradley Sowell.

The current approach to the offensive line only took shape in the 2015 season when we were 30th in OL spending. For the 2014 season we were 11th in OL spending and for the 2013 season, the year we won the super bowl, we had the highest paid line in the league.

The only seasons for which we can evaluate the current OL approach are 2015 and 2016 and the problems with this team remain consistent throughout them.

Yeah, right down to constantly winning.

The amount of winning decreases commensurate with OL expenditures.

 

[LeftHandSmoke]

The general consensus is that the interior guys are playing well, despite their inexperience, and that they will improve with game-to-game experience and up-coaching. Fair enough, we've seen a clear history of OL improvement during recent Seahawk seasons.

The questioning is more around the tackles but why not make the same assumptions about their ability to improve throughout the season? They are certainly 'physical' (and young and big) enough to get good, most certainly motivated enough, and just like the interior men also have the coach's best hopes and attentions to improve. Webb may be too set in his ways but all the others, yes including Sowell, must surely have the potential to build upon, right?

By some stats this group is close to or even ahead of last year's line at this week of the season. With an arguably higher upside because of their youth and the ongoing learnings.

 

[CodeWarrior]

The general consensus is that the interior guys are playing well, despite their inexperience, and that they will improve with game-to-game experience and up-coaching. Fair enough, we've seen a clear history of OL improvement during recent Seahawk seasons.

The questioning is more around the tackles but why not make the same assumptions about their ability to improve throughout the season? They are certainly 'physical' (and young and big) enough to get good, most certainly motivated enough, and just like the interior men also have the coach's best hopes and attentions to improve. Webb may be too set in his ways but all the others, yes including Sowell, must surely have the potential to build upon, right?

By some stats this group is close to or even ahead of last year's line at this week of the season. With an arguably higher upside because of their youth and the ongoing learnings.

How much time does Gilliam get?

What's an acceptable current performance/future potential tradeoff? Seems to me we're consistently high on future potential and not so much on current performance.

 

[tmobilchawker79]

Gilliam to the bench and let's get Sowell in there. Or Webb. Or Odhiambo. There's gotta be someone who can "compete" better than him.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

We make the playoffs every year. I find it pretty hard to argue with that.

So, yes.

Although...I'd be happy to replace Bradley Sowell.

The current approach to the offensive line only took shape in the 2015 season when we were 30th in OL spending. For the 2014 season we were 11th in OL spending and for the 2013 season, the year we won the super bowl, we had the highest paid line in the league.

The only seasons for which we can evaluate the current OL approach are 2015 and 2016 and the problems with this team remain consistent throughout them.

Yeah, right down to constantly winning.

The amount of winning decreases commensurate with OL expenditures.

We're doing fine this year.

Expenditures don't correlate to quality. Why don't you actually go to the tape, break down the OL performances, and discuss who's doing well and who's not?

 

[sdog1981]

Is it still rolling the dice when you invest 14 draft picks and 3 of your 6 first picks on the Oline? Or is it the Oline coach is pure garbage and can't develop talent?