USMNT World Cup Qualifiers: Klinsmann out; Arenas in

[Sgt. Largent]

Klinsmann is out

We knew it was coming. Can't lose your locker room, just can't.

 

[Uncle Si]

Klinsmann is out

We knew it was coming. Can't lose your locker room, just can't.

I don't know man. You and I disagree on this point. You can always change your locker room. You literally have an entire nation at your disposal. He couldve turned to the kids and they'd have loved him for it. Not being able to placate the likes of Altidore and Bradley (or Donovan) who have digressed anyways doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Its what US soccer needs anyways.

I think he boxed himself in from USSF and they've been waiting for a reason to push him out. By the sounds of it they had opened up talks with potential replacements before the Mexico match.

If they turn to Bruce Arenas we will all be waxing nostalgic for the Klinsmann days. I think Gulati should be following Klinsmann, but here we are.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Klinsmann is out

We knew it was coming. Can't lose your locker room, just can't.

I don't know man. You and I disagree on this point. You can always change your locker room. You literally have an entire nation at your disposal. He couldve turned to the kids and they'd have loved him for it. Not being able to placate the likes of Altidore and Bradley (or Donovan) who have digressed anyways doesn't strike me as a bad thing. Its what US soccer needs anyways.

I think he boxed himself in from USSF and they've been waiting for a reason to push him out. By the sounds of it they had opened up talks with potential replacements before the Mexico match.

If they turn to Bruce Arenas we will all be waxing nostalgic for the Klinsmann days. I think Gulati should be following Klinsmann, but here we are.

No team changes the locker room into a season or in this case qualifying stage.

Yes you have an entire nation, but that takes years to try out and bring in new players. We have good players, these are mostly the same players that Klinsmann won with before, so it's not the players (for the most part), it's their coach who's tactics and style of coaching has come to the end if his shelf life.

That's all, doesn't mean Jurgen isn't a good soccer coach, or won't have success elsewhere. But the US program after two embarrassing qualifying losses needs new ideas and more importantly a leader the players will fight for.

 

[Uncle Si]

Well I disagree again... yes, you can and many countries do effectively change the majority of their line up during these stages of qualifying. England is constantly bouncing its line up around depending on player form heading into each break. You just need a coach that can support the decisions. The thing is, Jurgen is a poor "coach." What he was doing for US Soccer was expanding its reach, its structure, its scope and objectives. Klinsmann effectively balked at making changes then blamed the players. It's your fault. What he could not do was set his team out from match to match and get results. Dude.. you're the coach.

Arena's ideas of how the USMNT are digressive. He would be a terrible appointment.

 

[Glasgow Seahawk]

Guessing it will be Arena but honestly don't want him or Sigi.

Someone different please.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm in no way asking for Arena.

If that's the plan, it's a bad one..........unless the USMNT has just resigned to treading water until after the next WC.

One thing we can agree on hopefully, Drew Magery is funny.

http://deadspin.com/i-should-coach-the- ... socialflow

 

[hawkfan68]

I agree with Si....Gulati needs to go. I think USSF has hit its ceiling under his leadership. It's time to bring a new face to run things.

As for the next coach what about Thomas Rongen? He has been involved in USSF in a number of roles. Most recently the coach of American Samoa - https://www.yahoo.com/news/zac-lee-rigg-thomas-rongen-183600208-soccer.html

 

[Uncle Si]

I agree with Si....Gulati needs to go. I think USSF has hit its ceiling under his leadership. It's time to bring a new face to run things.

As for the next coach what about Thomas Rongen? He has been involved in USSF in a number of roles. Most recently the coach of American Samoa - https://www.yahoo.com/news/zac-lee-rigg-thomas-rongen-183600208-soccer.html

Rongen would be a good long term candidate. I also like Jason Kries, Oscar Pareja (someone brought him up earlier) and Caleb Porter, Cladio Reyna or even Tab Ramos if they want to hire American/MLS, which does not have to be the answer. As Klinsmann parts, the biggest concern will be whether his very astute vision for soccer in America goes with him. He was a shite game manager, but he understood fully what the development foundation should be here.

http://deadspin.com/the-usmnt-should-not-be-coached-by-an-american-1789236832

Short term, however, I would love to see Mancini.

 

[SeatownJay]

Sounds like Arena is all but official which is a damn shame.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Short term, however, I would love to see Mancini.

Why only short term? Mancini would be a fantastic long term hire as well. He has the juice and soccer knowledge to command the respect of the entire program and all it's players.

IMO a US coach is the exact wrong way to go long term. That's a regression back to the stagnant Bob Bradley years. Which is fine if we just want to continue to make the WC, and maybe get through to knockout rounds.

But if the US program REALLY wants to take the next step and become a perennial top 10 program, then it's going to have to find a coach like Jurgen that takes chances and can facilitate the necessary changes to US Development................even if it doesn't work out in the end.

 

[Uncle Si]

Short term, however, I would love to see Mancini.

Why only short term? Mancini would be a fantastic long term hire as well. He has the juice and soccer knowledge to command the respect of the entire program and all it's players.

IMO a US coach is the exact wrong way to go long term. That's a regression back to the stagnant Bob Bradley years. Which is fine if we just want to continue to make the WC, and maybe get through to knockout rounds.

But if the US program REALLY wants to take the next step and become a perennial top 10 program, then it's going to have to find a coach like Jurgen that takes chances and can facilitate the necessary changes to US Development................even if it doesn't work out in the end.

I love Mancini. I listed him as short term because it seems that is what the USSF is looking for at the moment. Plus, I don't see Mancini as wanting to be a long term international coach.

I like the idea of a young, energetic MLS coach trying to take the reigns. However, I do think the program as a whole needs/deserves more. And this is where Klinsmann was unique and will be a tough, tough loss. there are lots of dynamic European and South American coaches who would jump at a job like this. But how many are really going to dive into the development side of the team vs. just working the first team. Klinsmann understood this dynamic, even if he couldn't realize it on the field with the first team.

In retrospect, Klinsmann should've stayed. What he needed was a better assistant coach. But that's in retrospect now.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

In retrospect, Klinsmann should've stayed. What he needed was a better assistant coach. But that's in retrospect now.

Idk, I respect Jurgen for trying to change things.............and 5-6 years is a long time for any national team manager. So that was about the shelf life to be expected.

Bottom line is maybe the US doesn't have the players or development to to be a top 10 country, but they do have the money to throw at just about any coach they want, so the sky should be the limit for the next hire.

The Arena hiring tells me that the program needed a strong stern presence that could restore some discipline and order to the squad and overall organizational ladder.

 

[Uncle Si]

In retrospect, Klinsmann should've stayed. What he needed was a better assistant coach. But that's in retrospect now.

Idk, I respect Jurgen for trying to change things.............and 5-6 years is a long time for any national team manager. So that was about the shelf life to be expected.

Bottom line is maybe the US doesn't have the players or development to to be a top 10 country, but they do have the money to throw at just about any coach they want, so the sky should be the limit for the next hire.

The Arena hiring tells me that the program needed a strong stern presence that could restore some discipline and order to the squad and overall organizational ladder.

Changing things is a long, long process, and it starts at the youth level. Klinsmann understood this better than I think anyone in the US does. His game day tactics were a struggle.

The hiring of Arena is a bull shit "safe play" by a bunch of people who not only do not understand the actual dilemma facing US soccer but have no interest in investing the time or resources to changing it. Its unfair to continue to say there was no order in the team. That's speculation and stemming from voices of players who were failing. Arena will do nothing more than organize the group and make certain players feel comfortable. Great... just what the US needs. Overrun players who won't risk challenge for the sake of their own comfort being pillowed even more. I'm sure our younger stars like Pulisic and Bobby Wood are wondering exactly what the point of all of this is, while the likes of Bradley and Altidore are nodding in affirmation that the status quo has been restored.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The hiring of Arena is a bull shit "safe play" by a bunch of people who not only do not understand the actual dilemma facing US soccer but have no interest in investing the time or resources to changing it. Its unfair to continue to say there was no order in the team. That's speculation and stemming from voices of players who were failing. Arena will do nothing more than organize the group and make certain players feel comfortable. Great... just what the US needs. Overrun players who won't risk challenge for the sake of their own comfort being pillowed even more. I'm sure our younger stars like Pulisic and Bobby Wood are wondering exactly what the point of all of this is, while the likes of Bradley and Altidore are nodding in affirmation that the status quo has been restored.

Of course it's all speculation, but I know what I saw against Costa Rica, the same thing Gulati and the rest of US Soccer management saw................a team that quit on it's coach. THAT'S why Jurgen is gone, plain and simple. Shouldn't happen, can't happen. Period.

Our youth programs are an entirely different conversation. I saw someone on Twitter last night sum up our problem very simply. The #1 issue is in the US we have an elitest "pay to play" system that produces Alexi Lalas's and not Alexi Sanchez's.

This is an issue with just about every american sport, but it's especially true of soccer where the only way to get your child on the best clubs and into the right systems is to pay insane amounts of money over a decade or more. That leaves out the vast majority of our youth population.

 

[Uncle Si]

Couple things..

Players who quit on their coach should be replaced. The Bradley's, Altidore's, Jones' have no more usefulness in this program. That's the thing that bothers me. Pulisic, Wood, Hyndman and a score or more of elite US players under the age of 21 are coming through the ranks under the development system and philosophy that Klinsmann created. Those players, who see the ideals he is championing and are acting on them (playing at the highest level possible) are the ones who should be focused on. Those players would have played for Klinsmann. Bradley and the MLS all stars can do one. Their time was over. They've been given a lease by a coach who basically coddles to mediocrity, no need to look further than his under performing Galaxy team this year. The USSF took a safe play. They should not be celebrated for their acknowledgment of what they saw by releasing the coach. They should be condemned for not realizing it was those players and the Donovans before who needed to be vetted out of the USMNT years ago. You seem to think that the tuck and hide job done by veterans in Costa Rica is an indictment on the coach. I disagree.. that's an indictment on them.

Pay for play is a hype phrase being bandied about by people who fail to see the development tiers in place and how they have changed just in the last 5 years. It is not the problem. Yes, players pay to play in their youth clubs, sometimes alot. However, the newest form of these, created in the last decade (under the encouragement of Klinsmann) is the MLS and Developmental academies. There is not a tuition or cost to the MLS academies. I have sent 2 players age 12 to the Sporting academy. The kids don't pay a thing, train with Sporting 5 days a week, travel with the club and live with their parents (Under 14 kids must live with parents, so they moved). Kids over 15 are placed with host families and pay "rent" at some or are boarded at others. There are dozens of similar academies (either sponsored by MLS teams or as part of big clubs with corporate sponsorship) under the same foundation. This is how it's done in Europe. Kids are not missing out.

The problem is two fold: Coaches who are not prepared to challenge their players to get better. This is philosophical, and a conversation for another time. I'll say this, as a coach for an academy: we stare kids in the eyes and tell them we care about their development while getting needled in the back by their parents and coaching directors to make sure we win. You can't have both. Second, we are a big nation, geographically. There are 60+ developmental academies spread across the nation. Kids are being found. They are playing. It is hard to get them together. We rely on a "hey look, we have this kid" system. Without going into a great deal of detail I'm sure you can see the inefficiency of that.

Klinsmann recognized all of these problems and was working diligently to correct them. You don't fire a guy for two results. He was brash and arrogant because he recognized the ignorance and stubbornness of the people currently in charge of building the sport here. That's why he was let go. The results were the thrust of the knife they had been sharpening for a couple years.

it's too bad. He had a vision I was happy to play a small role in. It sucks he was such a mediocre game manager. They could have given him an assistant to help with the first team and let him bring the development side together.

Instead we get a guy who says all USMNT players need to be born in America. Great...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I definitely agree there needs to be a consolidation and uniformity of our youth programs.

As far as the pay to play, in order to get to those MLS youth clubs Si the player had to go through at least 4-5 years of a pay to play program.

Take Yedlin for example, he came from my daughter's premiere program, Crossfire. If he wasn't in Crossfire he never would have gotten a tryout to get into Emerald City FC, which is what you're talking about, a non profit academy.

So it's still a problem IMO, cause I've seen it firsthand. I've coached and seen many good young athletes that drifted off into other sports once they got to age 10-12 cause their parents couldn't afford the 5-10k per year it cost to go into a Crossfire or similar premiere club.

 

[Uncle Si]

I definitely agree there needs to be a consolidation and uniformity of our youth programs.

As far as the pay to play, in order to get to those MLS youth clubs Si the player had to go through at least 4-5 years of a pay to play program.

Take Yedlin for example, he came from my daughter's premiere program, Crossfire. If he wasn't in Crossfire he never would have gotten a tryout to get into Emerald City FC, which is what you're talking about, a non profit academy.

So it's still a problem IMO, cause I've seen it firsthand. I've coached and seen many good young athletes that drifted off into other sports once they got to age 10-12 cause their parents couldn't afford the 5-10k per year it cost to go into a Crossfire or similar premiere club.

My club is at the same level (in terms of the tier) as Crossfire. Our kids pay 1500-3K depending on travel. Most of that cost goes into the Winter training and field rental component. Sockers and Gallagher are the two biggest clubs in the region. Annual cost is under 3K for the 2nd teams. Top teams are free because of corporate scholarship (they have their own facilities). Both of the kids I helped get to Sporting played one year at my club. Before that they were at a local rec club, paying under 400$ a season (a season lasts 9-12 months). The two kids we are hoping to move down next year are in similar situations.

For every Yedlin I could tell you 50 kids who are doing it differently. It's not perfect, its evolving, and it is not the problem.

The issue here is mentality. We do not need to consolidate. We are far too big of a country. What we need is a general direction and ambition that is beyond selfishness and mirrors the objectives of our players. Until that... we will promote winning at all costs, we will promote training with coaches and diminish open play, we will fire coaches who understand what the mentality is and promote coaches and players who are used to the coddling they've got their entire soccer careers.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Then once again Si, we shall agree to disagree.

I've coached and been involved with youth soccer with my daughter for over 12 years, and all I've seen on every soccer pitch she ever played on is rich, affluent white girls. Same goes for 90% of the boys I helped coach.

From Vancouver to Vancouver, east to west........nothing but affluency as far as the eye can see. Yes when she was young we played a few inner city clubs, but the older she got those clubs weren't on the schedule anymore. They evaporated because those inner city kids couldn't move up into bigger clubs because of the cost. Even $500 a year was too much for them. Good players too.

Which btw, IS contributing to that spoiled entitled coach and players you're talking about that aren't tough enough, and aren't coached hard enough. But that's also a product of the affluent parents controlling the purse strings of the academies and programs through their cash getting coaches hired and fired.

So you wanna install that grit and hard nosed mentality? Get rid of the lilly white pay to play affluent system that churns out spoiled kids that are coddled their entire soccer careers.

 

[Uncle Si]

I've been involved in the Academy system, the highest we have at the youth level, for the last 5 years. Everything you are describing has faded dramatically at soccer's top tier. Does it reach every kid? No, and neither does any system in any part of the world.

Again, I can continue to give you countless (hundreds really) examples. But I don't think it will matter. Two of the biggest clubs in Minnesota are MU and Blackhawks, both representing the inner city. Blackhawks takes their "affluent" (half the teams are Somali or of African or Hmong decent) to Sweden every Summer. Its way too easy to point a finger and suggest this is the problem without seeing it play out every day. I'll just say your summation is very, very far off. Competitiveness and skill is what drives these teams now. You should get back into it. You might be surprised what you see.

What's interesting is the system you are talking about is what got us the Michael Bradley and Landon Donovan generation, the two players Klinsmann called out for their softness.

 

[hawkfan68]

USSF really needs to start thinking in long term rather than short term. I'd rather they miss 2018 WC and develop into a good showing for 2022 WC. By then guys like Pulisic, Wood, Green, Morris, and Yedlin will be the core of the team. Bringing in Arena (even in the short term) sets the team back. He's not going to develop these guys and that's why USSF is always in rebuilding mode. They never build or sustain anything. Countries like Ecuador and Costa Rica are surpassing them due to this state of flux.