USMNT World Cup Qualifiers: Klinsmann out; Arenas in

[Glasgow Seahawk]

USSF really needs to start thinking in long term rather than short term. I'd rather they miss 2018 WC and develop into a good showing for 2022 WC. By then guys like Pulisic, Wood, Green, Morris, and Yedlin will be the core of the team. Bringing in Arena (even in the short term) sets the team back. He's not going to develop these guys and that's why USSF is always in rebuilding mode. They never build or sustain anything. Countries like Ecuador and Costa Rica are surpassing them due to this state of flux.

Arena is only contracted for this campaign and this world cup if we qualify. After that who knows, we may bring someone else in to help with the new core. Seems more like a safe pair of hands than anything.

I still don't know who to bring in long term who is dynamic and would want to manage international soccer.

Speaking of which it sounds like the Galaxy are going in for Caleb Porter.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

USSF really needs to start thinking in long term rather than short term. I'd rather they miss 2018 WC and develop into a good showing for 2022 WC. By then guys like Pulisic, Wood, Green, Morris, and Yedlin will be the core of the team. Bringing in Arena (even in the short term) sets the team back. He's not going to develop these guys and that's why USSF is always in rebuilding mode. They never build or sustain anything. Countries like Ecuador and Costa Rica are surpassing them due to this state of flux.

Like I said above, Arena is a safe hire to get everyone back on the same page for this WC, and this WC only.

Unless he gets this squad to play out of their minds all the way through the WC, then a new search will begin immediately after the WC, or sooner if we can't get through qualifying.

 

[hawkfan68]

USSF really needs to start thinking in long term rather than short term. I'd rather they miss 2018 WC and develop into a good showing for 2022 WC. By then guys like Pulisic, Wood, Green, Morris, and Yedlin will be the core of the team. Bringing in Arena (even in the short term) sets the team back. He's not going to develop these guys and that's why USSF is always in rebuilding mode. They never build or sustain anything. Countries like Ecuador and Costa Rica are surpassing them due to this state of flux.

Like I said above, Arena is a safe hire to get everyone back on the same page for this WC, and this WC only.

Unless he gets this squad to play out of their minds all the way through the WC, then a new search will begin immediately after the WC, or sooner if we can't get through qualifying.

I still don't like the hire. Arena already had an opportunity and he was replaced. I think making a conscientious decision of choosing someone long term should have been priority. There are plenty of coaches that are a better fit for the long term. Choosing to go with Arena just for 1-2 years is shoddy strategy. This is why the USMNT is always in rebuild mode and not in developing and rise mode. They don't have a long term vision. Moves like this is why I think Gulati is the problem. He needs to go.

 

[Uncle Si]

I don't like it either. Not as a stop gap. Not as a temporary appointment to get through this cycle of qualifying. And certainly not as a long term (which he won't be)

For me though i can accept it for the match fixtures but would be so frustrated if he is on the sideline in 2018.

 

[Uncle Si]

Not encouraging in the slightest...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bruce-arena-outlines-his-plan-for-u-s-soccer-1480464306?mod=e2fb

On how the U.S. will play: “We’re not going to look like Barcelona...There is nothing wrong with counter-attacking. Real Madrid does it pretty well if you watch them lately.”

Counter attacking soccer... in international play.

Welcome back Arenas.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Not encouraging in the slightest...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bruce-arena-outlines-his-plan-for-u-s-soccer-1480464306?mod=e2fb

On how the U.S. will play: “We’re not going to look like Barcelona...There is nothing wrong with counter-attacking. Real Madrid does it pretty well if you watch them lately.”

Counter attacking soccer... in international play.

Welcome back Arenas.

Welcome back Bradley as well.

Like I said, Arena was the safe hire to circle the wagons and get the squad fundamentally sound and start climbing their way back into the WC qualifying slots. So yep, get ready for the old boring but effective 442 playing for the counter.

But IMO if you're gonna go that route, it's time to put players like Altidore, Jones and Bradley out to pasture......and go young in the midfield and up top. Morris, Zardes, Nagbe and of course Pulisic. That's the kind of speed and quickness you need for a good counter attack.

 

[Uncle Si]

Issue here is that counter attacking soccer is fairly ineffective in international soccer. Arena doesn't seem the safe option at all. He seems more in line with what Gulati thinks of soccer. But that is not how the rest of the nations academies are developing players and completely disrupts the model and curriculum set up by Klinsmann and set forth by Reyna. These are huge issues. Arena is a call back to mediocrity. That may seem safe to one man, but is effectively disrupting the world outside of those two.

Counter attacking soccer does not work at the International level. Period.
Teams tend to be very disciplined and safe in international matches, mostly due to the inefficiencies and lack of cohesiveness in bringing all these players together over a short time. "Setting up" to counter attack and then using a high level (the highest, really) club team in Real Madrid as an example shows how far off the plot he really is. He honestly thinks because it worked against Portugal and Mexico in South Korea that it will surely work again, without even reflecting on how lucky that team was.

He has already clearly addressed his issues on foreign nationals and has not yet mentioned how he plans on developing his young players. This is not just a step backwards, but a full on tumble.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Issue here is that counter attacking soccer is fairly ineffective in international soccer. Arena doesn't seem the safe option at all. He seems more in line with what Gulati thinks of soccer. But that is not how the rest of the nations academies are developing players and completely disrupts the model and curriculum set up by Klinsmann and set forth by Reyna. These are huge issues. Arena is a call back to mediocrity. That may seem safe to one man, but is effectively disrupting the world outside of those two.

Counter attacking soccer does not work at the International level. Period.
Teams tend to be very disciplined and safe in international matches, mostly due to the inefficiencies and lack of cohesiveness in bringing all these players together over a short time. "Setting up" to counter attack and then using a high level (the highest, really) club team in Real Madrid as an example shows how far off the plot he really is. He honestly thinks because it worked against Portugal and Mexico in South Korea that it will surely work again, without even reflecting on how lucky that team was.

He has already clearly addressed his issues on foreign nationals and has not yet mentioned how he plans on developing his young players. This is not just a step backwards, but a full on tumble.

I agree with everything you're saying, other than Arena. He is literally the safest hire possible at this point in time.

He is the oldest of old school American soccer coaches with the highest profile.

 

[Uncle Si]

I don't disagree on that. I just don't think that's the "safe" play. I guess I'm looking at it a little differently. I think in trying to be easy they have made a damaging choice.

They have regressed to hire without actually acknowledging how the climate of American soccer, its players, youth development and even fans have progressed. If we had gone back to Arena after Bradley, I think that would have been "safe." However, in turning to him now they are ignoring how US soccer is viewed. Its coaches, players, fans are so much smarter about the game. Their expectations are higher. They are invested in the program from top to bottom. Arena doesn't tick any of the boxes American soccer needs.


People are not thrilled with this appointment. Some are angry. Many are frustrated. If anything, almost everyone is underwhelmed.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

People are not thrilled with this appointment. Some are angry. Many are frustrated. If anything, almost everyone is underwhelmed.

Of course, no soccer fan wants to throw in the towel, which is what the Arena hiring means. It means it'll be another 2-4 years of stagnation of the US Soccer program before we try again with hiring a dynamic coach with bigger ideas...................................I just hope it doesn't mean regression.

 

[Uncle Si]

People are not thrilled with this appointment. Some are angry. Many are frustrated. If anything, almost everyone is underwhelmed.

Of course, no soccer fan wants to throw in the towel, which is what the Arena hiring means. It means it'll be another 2-4 years of stagnation of the US Soccer program before we try again with hiring a dynamic coach with bigger ideas...................................I just hope it doesn't mean regression.

Stagnation is regression. 20 years ago people were thrilled with the type of soccer Arena brought to the USMNT. Now, that perspective has changed dramatically and alot of that is due to Klinsmann (not just the coach but the man).

Soccer is huge now here. It can't be denied. Statistics aren't necessary to make the point. It is what it is. Arena has no connection to that progress.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Maybe you're right Si, we'll see how the team responds with Arena.

The problem is it's very difficult to find the next amazing coach in the middle of qualifying all over the world. It's like firing a head coach or manager mid-season, you don't have a choice but to just promote an assistant until the season's over when you can go after a better candidate.

Same thing here. Until the next WC's over, Arena is a placeholder, for better or worse.

So Gulati's decision was stay with Klinsmann and hope he turns it around, or fire him and move on now and hope Arena can right the ship........much like the Sounders did. Worked out for them, so I'm not as doom and gloom as you.

If you're right and Arena craps the bed, then we'll go after the next high profile dynamic coach that most soccer fans want to see after the WC.

 

[Uncle Si]

If we judge the future on the present... meaning we judge USMNT and Arena on whether they can pull enough points out to get out of the Hex, then we are truly doomed.

My biggest issue with Arena is he is a reflection of an era of American soccer that is gone. Grinding out results through athletic, disciplined, gritty play was great for 20 years. It got the US to World Cups and even into the knockout rounds a couple times.

Klinsmann had a bigger plan, with Reyna.. to develop/instill and set up a youth to main team philosophy based on not grinding out results just to get results (worst thing you can do at youth level is keep score) but to develop a skill set, mind set and mentality to play the game at a high level and challenge for greatness, not just above average. The last 6 years of soccer development in the US has been geared towards that model, embracing it (not perfectly). Arena represents a fall back to above average... and in that he is a digression.

At this point, I'd give up the World Cup for a better coach. Whats the point in rolling out the same average players in a below average group stage and earning a spot in a tournament the nation once again has no chance of winning.

Look, Klinsmann was never going to win a World Cup with the US. But he was setting the groundwork. You can't follow him with essentially the same guy he replaced. Its ludicrous.

edit: i feel like i'm blaming you for this... definitely not. I do like a long soccer discussion.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

edit: i feel like i'm blaming you for this... definitely not. I do like a long soccer discussion.

Ha, it's all good homey. I'd much rather discuss soccer than read the 8,871,239th fire Bevell thread.

Arena's already tagged Roldan for a possible call up, so that excites me. My hope is he goes with a total youth overhaul, I don't care if it means a step back at first. The US needs to get younger in the midfield. I'd be happy if we never saw Bradley or Jones ever again in a US kit.

 

[knownone]

Bruce Arena will probably get this team into the World Cup, but he's the wrong answer. This is a guy who doesn't believe in analytics, is more stubborn than Jurgen with his lineup decisions, all while providing some of the most uninspiring tactics you will ever see in international play.

I really don't see any upside to this move. Jurgen for all his faults was an iconic charismatic figure who was capable of bringing attention and growing the sport just being himself. Bruce Arena is some weird combination of Jeff Fisher and Bill Belichick, strangely arrogant while managing to remain awkwardly standoffish, he's not exactly going to bring in new fans or grow the sport when the team is transitioning. So, why are we bringing him in to be a stop gap in what looks to be a transition cycle for the USMNT? Why not bring in a young coach and see what happens, or push for a big name? or why not just hold onto Jurgen until he failed (which wasn't likely given the schedule) and then move on and pursue the big names after the WC. I don't understand... By most accounts, Jurgen had things going in the right direction from a Technical Director standpoint, and moving on without any real replacement is mind numbingly frustrating.

 

[Uncle Si]

This is a guy who doesn't believe in analytics, is more stubborn than Jurgen with his lineup decisions, all while providing some of the most uninspiring tactics you will ever see in international play.

You were my first thought when I read that statement from him. in 2016/17 how can you not find value in metrics based analysis?

The rest is spot on and a mirror of what Sarge and I are saying. The best that can be hoped for is the USMNT makes it out of a very weak group. But that also might be the worst thing.

Only think he's done right so far is recognize that Pulisic is better then he has seen at that age and that the midfield needs an overhaul. Whether he has the insight to do anything with that information is yet to be seen.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Bruce Arena will probably get this team into the World Cup, but he's the wrong answer. This is a guy who doesn't believe in analytics, is more stubborn than Jurgen with his lineup decisions, all while providing some of the most uninspiring tactics you will ever see in international play.

I really don't see any upside to this move. Jurgen for all his faults was an iconic charismatic figure who was capable of bringing attention and growing the sport just being himself. Bruce Arena is some weird combination of Jeff Fisher and Bill Belichick, strangely arrogant while managing to remain awkwardly standoffish, he's not exactly going to bring in new fans or grow the sport when the team is transitioning. So, why are we bringing him in to be a stop gap in what looks to be a transition cycle for the USMNT? Why not bring in a young coach and see what happens, or push for a big name? or why not just hold onto Jurgen until he failed (which wasn't likely given the schedule) and then move on and pursue the big names after the WC. I don't understand... By most accounts, Jurgen had things going in the right direction from a Technical Director standpoint, and moving on without any real replacement is mind numbingly frustrating.

You just said the upside, making it to the WC............that's all we have right now, damage control and hopefully getting out of qualifying.

Gulati knows that, he wouldn't have fired Jurgen without knowing that the US program is going to be stagnant until the next dynamic hire is in place, whatever that entails.

What we have to hope for as fans that these next gen players like Pulisic, Morris, Miazga, Yedlin, Wood, Gooch, Williams, etc continue to gain experience and flourish over the next 2-4 years WITH what Jurgen was attempting to instill in them.

 

[Uncle Si]

Bruce Arena will probably get this team into the World Cup, but he's the wrong answer. This is a guy who doesn't believe in analytics, is more stubborn than Jurgen with his lineup decisions, all while providing some of the most uninspiring tactics you will ever see in international play.

I really don't see any upside to this move. Jurgen for all his faults was an iconic charismatic figure who was capable of bringing attention and growing the sport just being himself. Bruce Arena is some weird combination of Jeff Fisher and Bill Belichick, strangely arrogant while managing to remain awkwardly standoffish, he's not exactly going to bring in new fans or grow the sport when the team is transitioning. So, why are we bringing him in to be a stop gap in what looks to be a transition cycle for the USMNT? Why not bring in a young coach and see what happens, or push for a big name? or why not just hold onto Jurgen until he failed (which wasn't likely given the schedule) and then move on and pursue the big names after the WC. I don't understand... By most accounts, Jurgen had things going in the right direction from a Technical Director standpoint, and moving on without any real replacement is mind numbingly frustrating.

Gulati knows that, he wouldn't have fired Jurgen without knowing that the US program is going to be stagnant until the next dynamic hire is in place, whatever that entails.

Does he though? I think Gulati views success only by how the main squad performs.. and for him that is based specifically on a World Cup appearance. The man has never once revealed a vision he has for US soccer as a philosophy.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Bruce Arena will probably get this team into the World Cup, but he's the wrong answer. This is a guy who doesn't believe in analytics, is more stubborn than Jurgen with his lineup decisions, all while providing some of the most uninspiring tactics you will ever see in international play.

I really don't see any upside to this move. Jurgen for all his faults was an iconic charismatic figure who was capable of bringing attention and growing the sport just being himself. Bruce Arena is some weird combination of Jeff Fisher and Bill Belichick, strangely arrogant while managing to remain awkwardly standoffish, he's not exactly going to bring in new fans or grow the sport when the team is transitioning. So, why are we bringing him in to be a stop gap in what looks to be a transition cycle for the USMNT? Why not bring in a young coach and see what happens, or push for a big name? or why not just hold onto Jurgen until he failed (which wasn't likely given the schedule) and then move on and pursue the big names after the WC. I don't understand... By most accounts, Jurgen had things going in the right direction from a Technical Director standpoint, and moving on without any real replacement is mind numbingly frustrating.

Gulati knows that, he wouldn't have fired Jurgen without knowing that the US program is going to be stagnant until the next dynamic hire is in place, whatever that entails.

Does he though? I think Gulati views success only by how the main squad performs.. and for him that is based specifically on a World Cup appearance. The man has never once revealed a vision he has for US soccer as a philosophy.

He has, just read any of the pieces by Grant Wahl or other soccer media members over the past 4 years..........it's the same abstract big ideas any program has. Taking the program to the next level, emphasis on development, work ethic, etc. Those are the things I remember from following Wahl on Twitter and reading his pieces over the years.

 

[Uncle Si]

Grant Wahl's tweets are not manuals. Those aren't tangible or quantifiable.

Directors have tangible/quantifiable, specific and detailed goals/expectations and a platform. His only tangible expectation is that the USMNT makes world cups.

If you read the platform developed by Reyna and Klinsmann it is extremely specific and easy to follow at all levels. My academy knows what is expected of its players at each age group as directed by Reyna's curriculum (with some modifications set by Sporting).