Vernon Davis not participating in OTAs

[Popeyejones]

You're trying to move the goalposts just enough to make a point that isn't quite what we're talking about. Nice try with the red herring.

Not really. The claim was that "...but Seattle's FO tries their best to reward players who perform", as if this is unique or atypical. The Seahawks and 9ers (and everyone else) both regularly extend and re-sign players who perform, as long as they fit into the team's long-term salary plans. Boone wants another extension, Tate was very vocal about wanting to be brought back, but the team opted for Baldwin instead. So what? Was Red Bryant cut because he didn't perform, or because his salary was no longer in the team's best long-term interest?

My point was simply that every single team in the NFL, for better or for worse, is almost always "loyal" to players to the precise degree that it fits their long-term strategy. The Hawks are still one year away from really feeling the sharp end of this knife (the 9ers have spent the past two years having to move on from Pro-Bowlers, something that's yet to come for the Hawks), but deluding oneself into thinking that one's team is atypical in rewarding players who perform is kind of silly, IMO. There's a salary cap. Great teams have great players who can't all be given fair-market contracts, be they second contracts, extensions, or restructures. The salary cap is is everyone's father. FWIW I think you and I are both lucky to be rooting for teams that have this problem, lest we be Titans fans who are forced to see our FO wildly overpay to keep their only marquee player happy, only to be forced to cut him soon after, and without any meaningful success in between.

 

[loafoftatupu]

[The Hawks are still one year away from really feeling the sharp end of this knife (the 9ers have spent the past two years having to move on from Pro-Bowlers, something that's yet to come for the Hawks)

Moving on from Pro-Bowlers? What does that have to do with anything Popeye? Who are you referring to anyways? Goldson? or that pussy Whitner? Yeah, it must have just KILLED to lose those hacks. Goldson is still looking for the big hit and Whitner is late to the party. Either way, those two were cleanup hitters for the 4 LBers that are the best players at their position.

That sharp end of the knife you refer to? Show me where the Hawks haven't had to fill holes in starting roles every year. What's the difference of whether or not they make the Pro-Bowl if they were key players in positions that had to be filled by talent? They have done it with drafted youth and FA.

That same sharp knife is going to cut into some of that 49er LBing crew this season, Smith will be missing games (could be more than we think) and we already know the guy I consider to be the best in the business in Bowman is down for substantial time.

 

[Popeyejones]

[The Hawks are still one year away from really feeling the sharp end of this knife (the 9ers have spent the past two years having to move on from Pro-Bowlers, something that's yet to come for the Hawks)

Moving on from Pro-Bowlers? What does that have to do with anything Popeye?

It has to do with the central point I was discussing of rewarding players who perform. In the past two years, due to salary cap planning/consideration, the 9ers have had to move on from three pro-bowlers and three pro-bowl alternates. Them being noted for the pro-bowl signals that they're players that teams ideally would want to keep.

As for your dislike of Goldson and Whitner, it's neither here nor there really, as both pro-bowl voters and the market disagree.

That sharp end of the knife you refer to? Show me where the Hawks haven't had to fill holes in starting roles every year. What's the difference of whether or not they make the Pro-Bowl if they were key players in positions that had to be filled by talent? They have done it with drafted youth and FA.

My point was simply that the 9ers are a year ahead of the Hawks in having to deal with the ramifications of paying their top players what they're worth. In an ideal world I'm sure the Hawks FO would prefer to still have guys like Tate and Bryant on the team, but when it comes down to it neither of these guys are pro-bowlers, they're nice secondary pieces to have. Being unfortunate enough to have to deal with salary cap hell the 9ers have had to let guys like these go, and other guys go who had gone to multiple pro-bowls. Now that Sherman and Thomas are getting paid what they're worth and with Russell 12 months away from getting paid what he's worth, the Hawks will soon be in this position too. It's not a knock on the Hawks and they can certainly reload and maintain their success while doing so (so far, the 9ers have, but that's so far), but it's naive to think any successful team can stay immune from this.

That same sharp knife is going to cut into some of that 49er LBing crew this season, Smith will be missing games (could be more than we think) and we already know the guy I consider to be the best in the business in Bowman is down for substantial time.

Of course it is going to cut into the 9ers, as it already has been. As for Bowman and Smith that's an injury and a likely suspension, and completely off-topic from the point I was making about salary and the salary cap.

TBH you seem very intent on picking a fight where I don't think there is one, and where one certainly wasn't intended.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

Not really. The claim was that "...but Seattle's FO tries their best to reward players who perform", as if this is unique or atypical.

So this is the claim. Do you have evidence against this claim? No? OK.

As a matter of fact, your argument that this is not unique or atypical is one that is not necessarily true, but since you are making the claim, you can go ahead and prove that this is a typical thing. Maybe let us know how many holdouts playing above their contract worth, as Clemons was, are typically rewarded by other teams.

Tate was very vocal about wanting to be brought back, but the team opted for Baldwin instead.

No, Tate was extended an offer, but he chose to get more to play in Detroit. Detroit needs a second WR alongside Megatron and paid what might be considered above-market for Tate to get it (though they are at least partially wasting that salary not at least seeing if Tate can beat out Jeremy Ross as a punt returner, but hey, Lions).

So Seattle put forth an offer that paid Tate more than he made on his rookie contract, and Tate rejected it. Seattle tried to reward Tate and he chose a different offer. Then, Baldwin got paid long AFTER Tate was gone.

Was Red Bryant cut because he didn't perform, or because his salary was no longer in the team's best long-term interest?

Well, since Bryant was playing less snaps than ever before he got cut, I think you have your answer.

Popeye, trying to hide specious reasoning and claims that are not necessarily a) true or b) relevant in a wall-'o-text might work on some folks, but not on most of us here.

 

[Popeyejones]

So this is the claim. Do you have evidence against this claim? No? OK.

Given that I've been quoting your claim and exclusively responding to the claim you've made I'd hope you'd know what the claim is. :lol:

Why is it special to you that the Hawks caved to Clemons on a holdout? If they were as unique and atypical in paying players what they're worth why would he even have to hold out in the first place? Maybe your claim is that the Seahawks give players extensions unlike all other teams? If so, best of luck with that one.

In any case, IMO this is an unproductive convo. Feel free to take the last word on it.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

So this is the claim. Do you have evidence against this claim? No? OK.

Given that I've been quoting your claim and exclusively responding to the claim you've made I'd hope you'd know what the claim is. :lol:

Why is it special to you that the Hawks caved to Clemons on a holdout? If they were as unique and atypical in paying players what they're worth why would he even have to hold out in the first place? Maybe your claim is that the Seahawks give players extensions unlike all other teams? If so, best of luck with that one.

In any case, IMO this is an unproductive convo. Feel free to take the last word on it.

You have not been exclusively responding to the claim, which I pointed out. I will note that you chose not to address that response.

It is not "special," but I did point out that Clemons is the one example of a hold-out this regime has had, and they paid him. He held out because players understand amongst themselves that this is the common way to draw attention to a contract issue, and of course, the Seahawks negotiated a better contract with him immediately and he did not miss much camp. If the Seahawks' current regime is 1-for-1 in terms of taking care of holdouts with a reward for the producing player over the past four-plus years, and of course, they have only had one (minor) holdout, I think that says something for their ability to take care of players as proactively as possible, something that I don't think is necessarily par for the course in the NFL.

This conversation was productive, by the way. People reading this will see that Popeye's walls of text that do not actually do much to advance the conversation, but that sound like reasonable repartees filled with thoughtfulness are usually just Popeye being specious and driving the conversation off the rails for fun.

 

[loafoftatupu]

TBH you seem very intent on picking a fight where I don't think there is one, and where one certainly wasn't intended.

Not fighting.

TBH the only reason I even replied was to the "losing Pro Bowler" comment. Who cares if they made the pro bowl popularity contest? They were meat.

Simply put, not hard to replace. Those were the "pro bowlers" the Niners lost. You used it as a measuring stick to show some level of recovery, but it really wasn't recovering from much.

 

[RichNhansom]

Always funny how the Niner fans argued how over rated Goldstein and Whitney were when they were leaving and then switch it up to losing pro bowlers when it benefits their point.

Just remember while the Seahawks were giving Brandon Browned a bonus for no reason other than to reward his play, the Niners were taking 2 million dollars away from Brown. One of those scenarios isn't a shining example of rewarding your players.

 

[Popeyejones]

TBH you seem very intent on picking a fight where I don't think there is one, and where one certainly wasn't intended.

Not fighting.

TBH the only reason I even replied was to the "losing Pro Bowler" comment. Who cares if they made the pro bowl popularity contest? They were meat.

Simply put, not hard to replace. Those were the "pro bowlers" the Niners lost. You used it as a measuring stick to show some level of recovery, but it really wasn't recovering from much.

Which is why I replied that both the market and pro-bowl appearances (which are used in all types of analyses) are not in alignment with your personal feelings. So you think 9ers players who made multiple pro-bowls and left for big contracts suck? So what. It's incredibly tangential to the point I was making regardless.

 

[loafoftatupu]

Which is why I replied that both the market and pro-bowl appearances (which are used in all types of analyses) are not in alignment with your personal feelings. So you think 9ers players who made multiple pro-bowls and left for big contracts suck? So what. It's incredibly tangential to the point I was making regardless.

It doesn't matter. Simply put, they were not severe losses and they were easily replaced (you alluded to losing "Pro Bowl" caliber players, but really those were the only ones.

While Reid and Bethea do not have the continuity yet, I would consider at a minimum the growth of Reid to be an upgrade over the higher priced, overrated, big hitting and intellectually challenged Goldson. Whitner is a big hitter too, his just usually come after someone else has already taken on the ball carrier.

We are way off-topic, this is about VD, whom I think ends up missing zero time once the preseason camp begins. He knows the Niners salary situation, he can't get what the FO doesn't have to give him.

 

[CANHawk]

Herbs needs to show him his penis to prove he's a man like Singletary did. Unless he's afraid of looking...small.

 

[IndyHawk]

I hope the guy stays out for a long while to be honest..He don't want any of Kam ..If they do redo the contract I hope it hammers the cap even more so we are no longer a year behind..Next year we can all be friends and enjoy the cap hell mess together...

 

[Marvin49]

Always funny how the Niner fans argued how over rated Goldstein and Whitney were when they were leaving and then switch it up to losing pro bowlers when it benefits their point.

Just remember while the Seahawks were giving Brandon Browned a bonus for no reason other than to reward his play, the Niners were taking 2 million dollars away from Brown. One of those scenarios isn't a shining example of rewarding your players.

I'm not sure everyone viewed them as overrated, but I sure did.

I liked them both as players, but they were nowhere near as good as the contracts they were awarded.

Much happier with Reid over Goldson. Remains to be seen with Bethea.

My biggest concern in the secondary though is actually Terrell Brown. He was a solid player. Not a star, but a very solid corner.

 

[Marvin49]

I hope the guy stays out for a long while to be honest..He don't want any of Kam ..If they do redo the contract I hope it hammers the cap even more so we are no longer a year behind..Next year we can all be friends and enjoy the cap hell mess together...

Honestly, I don't think they'll touch that contract this year. They might tho extend him next year and convert his final years salary into signing bonus to actually save cap room next year and push it into later years when the cap is higher.

 

[loafoftatupu]

Honestly, I don't think they'll touch that contract this year. They might tho extend him next year and convert his final years salary into signing bonus to actually save cap room next year and push it into later years when the cap is higher.

Prolly not. They don't have to. VD needs the Niners more than the Niners need him. Especially with a WR that essentially plays like a receiving TE in Boldin.

VD would only be hurting himself if he took it further than preseason. Dude won't miss any games and the Niners won't need to do anything financially with him.

I think VD is making a big mistake. The guy can still ball, but he could cash in big if he at least waited until next year. This guy is in his 9th season, if he balls out like usual he can end his career on a team with a legitimate shot at another SB appearance and get paid a sick contract to finish his career. I think he is making a mistake and the Niners FO is not under any real pressure to do anything. Maybe he just wants to skip the BS and is willing to pay for it, but he won't go full moron and impact a game check.

 

[4freakin9]

I hope the guy stays out for a long while to be honest..He don't want any of Kam ..If they do redo the contract I hope it hammers the cap even more so we are no longer a year behind..Next year we can all be friends and enjoy the cap hell mess together...

Honestly, I don't think they'll touch that contract this year. They might tho extend him next year and convert his final years salary into signing bonus to actually save cap room next year and push it into later years when the cap is higher.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if all the contract talk is nothing more than Davis trying to up his Fantex value. The niners hold ALL the cards with Davis considering his contract. No way he holds out and misses game checks when he is trying to get investors to pay for his "brand". This is all probably just PR maneuvering for fantex.

 

[Popeyejones]

Always funny how the Niner fans argued how over rated Goldstein and Whitney were when they were leaving and then switch it up to losing pro bowlers when it benefits their point.

Just remember while the Seahawks were giving Brandon Browned a bonus for no reason other than to reward his play, the Niners were taking 2 million dollars away from Brown. One of those scenarios isn't a shining example of rewarding your players.

I'm not sure everyone viewed them as overrated, but I sure did.

I liked them both as players, but they were nowhere near as good as the contracts they were awarded.

Much happier with Reid over Goldson. Remains to be seen with Bethea.

My biggest concern in the secondary though is actually Terrell Brown. He was a solid player. Not a star, but a very solid corner.

Fwiw I don't really think either of them are overrated because I've never seen anyone argue that they're the best in the league at their respective positions. I think they're both in the top four to eight somewhere (which is why they get paid what they do, and why they both made multiple pro bowls).

As for them being easy to replace, I don't think it's ever easy to replace players in the top 3rd of the league, which these guys are easily above. It remains to be seen with Whitner, but so far Reid looks to at least be on the path. That doesn't make Goldson easy to replace though, it means the 9ers may have really nailed the pick. It's like if Christine Michael came in and dominated and some 9er fan who will never give the Hawks credit for anything just concluded that Marshawn is easily replaceable.

Agreed about Brown. He's similar to Tate, Red, Delanie, etc. in that he'll never break the bank but he's a well above average player that any team would want to keep if there wasn't a salary cap.

 

[loafoftatupu]

Reid is way ahead of where Goldson was when he was 1st year player. Already fairly active, seems like he knows what he is doing and did a solid job starting as a rookie.

I don't see him as a liability at all.

 

[Marvin49]

Reid is way ahead of where Goldson was when he was 1st year player. Already fairly active, seems like he knows what he is doing and did a solid job starting as a rookie.

I don't see him as a liability at all.

Just a side note about the safeties in the NFC West....

...have you guys noticed that it seems EVERY team in that division is kinda emulating the Seahawks at that position?

Seahawks: FS Thomas (small, FAST, center fielder who can hit, PLAYMAKER...and probably the best FS in the game right now), SS Chancellor (HUGE, enforcer, better in coverage than people give him credit for).

49ers (this is projecting in the next few years as Bethea will start thing year): FS Jimmie Ward (small, fast, playmaker on the college level), SS Reid (bigger guy, who can hit. Not the enforcer Chancellor is, but a physical presence).

Cards: FS Matheiu (small, fast, playmaker), SS Bucannon (big, enforcer)

Rams: FS Lamarcus Joyner (stop me if you've heard this before....small, fast, playmaker), SS TJ McDonald (big, enforcer).


I guess imitation is in fact the best form of flattery. I'm not suggesting they will be as good...just talking about style. It is fairly normal for teams to have a thumper at SS and a centerfielder at SS.....its just the extremes here more than anything else that I'm talking about...in particular the sizes of the FSs

 

[UK_Seahawk]

Always funny how the Niner fans argued how over rated Goldstein and Whitney were when they were leaving and then switch it up to losing pro bowlers when it benefits their point.

Just remember while the Seahawks were giving Brandon Browned a bonus for no reason other than to reward his play, the Niners were taking 2 million dollars away from Brown. One of those scenarios isn't a shining example of rewarding your players.

I'm not sure everyone viewed them as overrated, but I sure did.

I liked them both as players, but they were nowhere near as good as the contracts they were awarded.

Much happier with Reid over Goldson. Remains to be seen with Bethea.

My biggest concern in the secondary though is actually Terrell Brown. He was a solid player. Not a star, but a very solid corner.

Fwiw I don't really think either of them are overrated because I've never seen anyone argue that they're the best in the league at their respective positions. I think they're both in the top four to eight somewhere (which is why they get paid what they do, and why they both made multiple pro bowls).

As for them being easy to replace, I don't think it's ever easy to replace players in the top 3rd of the league, which these guys are easily above. It remains to be seen with Whitner, but so far Reid looks to at least be on the path. That doesn't make Goldson easy to replace though, it means the 9ers may have really nailed the pick. It's like if Christine Michael came in and dominated and some 9er fan who will never give the Hawks credit for anything just concluded that Marshawn is easily replaceable.

Agreed about Brown. He's similar to Tate, Red, Delanie, etc. in that he'll never break the bank but he's a well above average player that any team would want to keep if there wasn't a salary cap.

Any chance you can stick to letting "someone else having the last word" on this "unproductive convo". Thanks.