We have the 3rd highest average draft position o-line

[hawk45]

To clarify. Yes that is what I'm saying. Using that formula...we are #1 in actual draft value being used....not just top 5.

Agree with the rest of your post as well.

I am somewhat surprised by that, but given we sunk heavy draft capital into Okung and Carpenter who are no longer with the team (and being paid far more than we can afford), I'm not taken aback.

Thing is, if we had kept all of our O-line draft picks we'd probably be playing with a line of Okung-Carpenter-Britt-Sweezy-Ifedi, and IMO you'd be hard pressed not to call that one of the better lines in the league.

Thing is, looking at current contracts, we'd be paying $13.25m APY for Okung, $4.75m for Carpenter, $9m for Britt $5.5m for Sweezy and $2m for Ifedi - $34.5m in total.

And that would give us the 2nd most expensive starting line in the league (instead of cheapest). How would you plan to find the extra $20m cap dollars to pay for it?

The thing is, aside from Britt, none of those guys is an All-Pro, and yeah, we've been slacking at drafting them on the O-line. However, PC/JS strategy has been to pay the guys who are genuinely elite at their position. If we found a Joe Thomas or Tyron Smith we'd find the room to pay them somehow, but an Okung, who's played just one 16 game season in his career (the one he DIDN'T play with us...), no way are we paying that kind of money for him.

The fact is that there's little value at the O-line position, to get league average guys you have to pay above their value, would you rather pay £13m a year on Okung or Sheldon Richardson? Easy choice right?

Agreed. We cannot pay at all OL positions, and certainly cannot overpay for mediocre GUARDS. IMO the positions we must pay are C and at the tackles - if we ever find something at tackle - since the tackle position is where we have shown the most ineptitude at finding answers.

 

[NOLAHawk]

Fire Cabevel?


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[themunn]

We didn't need to keep them all. 2 would likely do. Why pay Joeckel $8M when we could have had Carp $4.7 for the same job?? He would not get put on his butt with a bull rush either. Teams know this now, and it will be a long season for him (and us...yeah) IMO.

I'm willing to give Joeckel the benefit of more than 1 game before I disregard him. He's a guy coming off a knee surgery and playing his first meaningful game in a year - having played just 3 games in the 20 months prior.

In any case he was brought in to bring experience to the line - with the expectation that George Fant would be starting next to him, we couldn't go with another young line like last year (given JS already admitted we went "too young" last year). And now instead of playing alongside Fant he's got Odhiambo who has played even LESS NFL football than Fant.

If come the Giants game the line and Joeckel still look completely lost, I'll reconsider, but for now I'm putting a bit of faith in that this will be a much better line than the last few years.

 

[hawk45]

We didn't need to keep them all. 2-3 would likely do. Why pay Joeckel $8M when we could have had Carp $4.7 for the same job?? He would not get put on his butt with a bull rush either. Teams know this now, and it will be a long season for him (and us...yeah) IMO.

To me this is a case of a chain-reaction of failures. Carpenter didn't develop into a guard worth a second contract so we didn't pay him, but the failure at all the other positions on the OL was so bad that they reverse course and pay an inferior player twice as much as they'd have paid Carp.

It's so demoralizing that whatever they do with this unit seems to be the wrong thing. Thank God they signed Britt.

 

[Seymour]

We didn't need to keep them all. 2-3 would likely do. Why pay Joeckel $8M when we could have had Carp $4.7 for the same job?? He would not get put on his butt with a bull rush either. Teams know this now, and it will be a long season for him (and us...yeah) IMO.

To me this is a case of a chain-reaction of failures. Carpenter didn't develop into a guard worth a second contract so we didn't pay him, but the failure at all the other positions on the OL was so bad that they reverse course and pay an inferior player twice as much as they'd have paid Carp.

It's so demoralizing that whatever they do with this unit seems to be the wrong thing. Thank God they signed Britt.

Yes, Britt is one less opportunity to get even worse. I agree what you said about keeping tackles and them being hard to replace. But week 1 both Holmgren and PFF said our guards and LT were the sore spots. So we very well be in deeper than we thought if Joeckel doesn't pan out. $8M for a questionable guard coming off double surgery is not exactly saving money.

 

[Tinymac2]

Your data isn't valid. You said it yourself, Joeckel is skewing the data and not a seahawks draft pick.

Folks, it's not a one game season. Have some faith. It's time to man up or log off.

 

[Erebus]

Smith - 9th overall
Martin - 16th overall
Frederick - 31st overall
Green - 91st overall
Collins - Undrafted (255 in your methodology)

That Collins draft position completely throws the average out (in particular as he's in essence a 1st/2nd round guy who fell due to non-football concerns)

I actually wish Collins had been drafted in the 1st, because then the Cowboys wouldn't have gotten him. But calling him a first round pick raises the Cowboys rankings, solidifies the argument that draft position is usually indicative of overall ability, and that higher average draft position should result in better success.

Any reason to ignore the rest of my post? i.e that a line with the 1st overall pick and an undrafted player would give you an average draft position of 128 for those two players - the exact same as drafting two players at the bottom of the 4th round, but which would you expect to yield better results? The former, of course, because a team can cycle through a range of Patrick Lewises, Lemuel Jeanpierres, Alvin Baileys, Garry Gilliams, George Fants and Jordan Roos' until someone hits and sticks, and it's not considered a waste of capital.

Just because I didn't quote your whole post doesn't mean I ignored it. The rest of your post was about basing this off draft capital, a concept to which I already addressed in my post, but quoted Alexander because he brought up the idea first.

 

[Erebus]

Your data isn't valid. You said it yourself, Joeckel is skewing the data and not a seahawks draft pick.

Folks, it's not a one game season. Have some faith. It's time to man up or log off.

It's valid data because it's factual. It may be flawed but it's 100% valid. However, the amount of cap space we invested in him is probably similar to the draft capital of a #2 overall pick.

 

[Optimus25]

Time to change the strategy i guess.

 

[brimsalabim]

Other teams aren't stupid enough to attempt to develop 4 and 5 starting OL all at the same time. Our QB and running backs take a beating while these guys develop and even if they do develop they aren't re- signed and the hole process begins again.

 

[brimsalabim]

Time to change the strategy i guess.

Pete still doesn't see a problem so he isn't going to change.

 

[cymatica]

Other teams aren't stupid enough to attempt to develop 4 and 5 starting OL all at the same time. Our QB and running backs take a beating while these guys develop and even if they do develop they aren't re- signed and the hole process begins again.

That's what it really boils down to.

Things like having a basketball player as a left tackle might be a good plan when you already have some other positions solidified.