What’s up with the total OL Overhaul?

[Jville]

They have an opportunity to reload and they are taking advantage of it.

“It was just emphasis,” Carroll said. “We really emphasized quickness in getting the ball out. We called a lot more calls that dictated the rhythm and the timing, as opposed to kind of mixing things. So we just emphasized it and he was ready and willing. It really helped the protection progress. We made great strides, protection-wise. All the negative numbers went way down and we threw those out. It was mostly about the rhythm of it and expectations of it, and then it was the calling it with the consistency to keep us in that kind of approach to our game, so it worked out great for us. All the third down numbers went up, the red zone numbers went up, everything went sky-high.”

And as much attention as there has been on an offensive line that will look quite a bit different this season, it isn’t just on the five starters—whoever that ends up being—to keep the offense from going through some of the early-season ups and downs that plagued last year’s team. If Wilson and his receivers can pick up where they left off in terms of the timing and rhythm in the passing game, that will take a lot of the pressure off of the line when it comes to pass protection. Not surprisingly, picking up where the offense left off in that area is a big focus for Wilson this offseason.

Link >>> [urltargetblank]http://www.seahawks.com/news/2016/06/21/seahawks-quarterback-russell-wilson-%E2%80%9C-clear-step-ahead%E2%80%9D-heading-fifth-season[/urltargetblank]

 

[hawkfan68]

Gilliam's upside is he isn't Britt.

haha...better be careful. If Britt fails at center, LT maybe the next spot for him. Gilliam better stake his claim and fast. Cable has a soft spot for Britt.

 

[Chapow]

Our OLine sucks

How do you know?

The projected starting OLine has been completely overhauled. Maybe we can wait until we see this unit on the field before we declare what they are or aren't? Heck, maybe we could even give them a few games to try to gel as a unit? I don't know, I'm just spit ballin here.

 

[seahawksTopGear]

The vikings are spending 40 million of their CAP on the offensive line. There are 23 teams that spend more than 20Million cap on their o line. Nobody spends less than the Seahawks at 9 million.

This is not a coincidence, it is a financial decision.

 

[ivotuk]

The vikings are spending 40 million of their CAP on the offensive line. There are 23 teams that spend more than 20Million cap on their o line. Nobody spends less than the Seahawks at 9 million.

This is not a coincidence, it is a financial decision.

That helps us put the best defense, and the best QB in the NFL on the field.

 

[Hawks46]

Heard that Ole Walter Jones was hired to help with the Rookies, I have to wonder if he may have a bit of help elsewhere also.

If this is actually true, this going to be huge for us. I mean monstrous.

Cable's OL's are notoriously weak at pass protection. I know it's always been more of an emphasis on run blocking with him, but if you're one of the top OL gurus in the NFL, you should be able to teach some pass pro.

Walter Jones probably has the best technique and footwork I've ever seen at LT. His pass protection is a thing of beauty and should literally be used as a manual for guys in college. Guys like Ogden and Pace were a bit more dominant physically, which makes Big Walt's technique and athleticism shine even more. None of that is a surprise to long time Hawks fans, but if Jones is out there helping, he'll be hitting our OL in an area of Cable's weakness.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

The vikings are spending 40 million of their CAP on the offensive line. There are 23 teams that spend more than 20Million cap on their o line. Nobody spends less than the Seahawks at 9 million.

This is not a coincidence, it is a financial decision.

That helps us put the best defense, and the best QB in the NFL on the field.

True, but it's not the way to go when you're paying your quarterback 20 million a year. Hopefully the Walter Jones thing is real because it's the cheapest way ever to solve our pass blocking issues.

 

[AgentDib]

The financial decision/OL dump stat stuff is really overblown around here. If we had Walter Jones on the roster they would be paying him. Most of the guys we have let walk in FA have been injury prone and/or played inconsistently for us, and many of them have netted large contracts elsewhere that meant compensation picks for us (and not overpaying an average player). If Gilliam becomes Peters 2.0 and Ifedi becomes Yanda 2.0 then they'll both get huge extensions and people can instead discuss whether we overpay for OL in Seattle.

It's easy to miss the trees for the forest here because our OL spending is low right now. However, if you look at each player individually the decisions are easy to follow. The move that looks the worst with the benefit of hindsight wasn't a salary dump at all but trading a player who could not stay healthy for an expensive star who never got hurt from a team trying to cut salary. Of course Graham gets hurt and Unger stays healthy (for once) and we're all miserable but bad outcomes do not always mean the thought process was bad, and that trade wasn't about undervaluing the OL in general.

 

[Jville]

The significance of the current offensive line salary cap ranking is way over blown. Just 3 years ago, the 2013 offensive line had the most expensive salary cap in all the league. As Buddy Ryan used to say, what goes around comes around. That's certainly true with salary caps.

I also think a lot of fans are all caught up in an unfortunate national pass time known as "the blame game". Fans, who are so very vocal about calling out linemen and receivers, do so in part because they're fond of viewing Russell Wilson as flawless. But, sometimes that injury to a receiver is all on the quarterback for under throwing and getting the ball out late. Sometimes that sack is on the quarterback. Sometimes ball handling lags or there is a moment of hesitation. Sometimes impromptu action places impromptu and unrehearsed stress on blocking and route running.

Some of us can accept that Russell Wilson isn't perfect, We're comfortable with that because of confidence in Russell's healthy sense of accountability and ability to make in game corrections. I just wish more fans can join us and get up to speed with field events in 2016. It's a lot more fun to watch these wonderful contests without the blinders.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

The financial decision/OL dump stat stuff is really overblown around here. If we had Walter Jones on the roster they would be paying him. Most of the guys we have let walk in FA have been injury prone and/or played inconsistently for us, and many of them have netted large contracts elsewhere that meant compensation picks for us (and not overpaying an average player). If Gilliam becomes Peters 2.0 and Ifedi becomes Yanda 2.0 then they'll both get huge extensions and people can instead discuss whether we overpay for OL in Seattle.

I'd disagree with this statement. Mainly, because this purge of salary was predictable even back in 2013 based on the salaries and specific players we were already extending at that time. It was foreseeable that Schneider's 3 year plan was to trim salary along the OL in favor of spending that cap value elsewhere.

It was a conscious roster building decision and the clues for that existed before we actually began purging talent. I never felt that Unger would see the last years of his contract. I did expect we'd resign Okung only because of the premium paid at the position as established by the league market. Coupled with an expectation that his market would be moderately cool. But when we traded and signed for Harvin as well as extended Wright -- I took that immediately at the time to signal the end to resigning our OL players. Letting Giacomini go for what was league average contract terms and the decline of Carpenter's option really foreshadowed the Unger trade.

I don't think we would have resigned a Jason Peters or a Tyron Smith caliber tackle at market value even if we had them. Big Walt -- man that's a first ballot HOF and that's a silly way to make an argument. Of course you make an exception for him. But I don't see us in any way rolling out the Brinks truck to resign say a Hutchinson quality OG if we had that kind of quality here. The roster (and the players we've chosen to keep) indicate a clear mandate for frugality on the OL.

You can't pay everyone. And we essentially chose to pay everyone BUT the OL group. We made that choice even before we started letting our talent go on the open market.

 

[Basis4day]

Heard that Ole Walter Jones was hired to help with the Rookies, I have to wonder if he may have a bit of help elsewhere also.

If this is actually true, this going to be huge for us. I mean monstrous.

Cable's OL's are notoriously weak at pass protection. I know it's always been more of an emphasis on run blocking with him, but if you're one of the top OL gurus in the NFL, you should be able to teach some pass pro.

Walter Jones probably has the best technique and footwork I've ever seen at LT. His pass protection is a thing of beauty and should literally be used as a manual for guys in college. Guys like Ogden and Pace were a bit more dominant physically, which makes Big Walt's technique and athleticism shine even more. None of that is a surprise to long time Hawks fans, but if Jones is out there helping, he'll be hitting our OL in an area of Cable's weakness.

Are you referring to his work at the Seahawks rookie symposium? The NFL used to have a single event for all rookies. This year each team is doing one. Jones, Trufant, and Babineux were helping with that giving advice on adjusting to NFL life.

My understanding is hes not there in any coaching capacity.

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... ife-stuff/

 

[hawk45]

The financial decision/OL dump stat stuff is really overblown around here. If we had Walter Jones on the roster they would be paying him. Most of the guys we have let walk in FA have been injury prone and/or played inconsistently for us, and many of them have netted large contracts elsewhere that meant compensation picks for us (and not overpaying an average player). If Gilliam becomes Peters 2.0 and Ifedi becomes Yanda 2.0 then they'll both get huge extensions and people can instead discuss whether we overpay for OL in Seattle.

I'd disagree with this statement. Mainly, because this purge of salary was predictable even back in 2013 based on the salaries and specific players we were already extending at that time. It was foreseeable that Schneider's 3 year plan was to trim salary along the OL in favor of spending that cap value elsewhere.

It was a conscious roster building decision and the clues for that existed before we actually began purging talent. I never felt that Unger would see the last years of his contract. I did expect we'd resign Okung only because of the premium paid at the position as established by the league market. Coupled with an expectation that his market would be moderately cool. But when we traded and signed for Harvin as well as extended Wright -- I took that immediately at the time to signal the end to resigning our OL players. Letting Giacomini go for what was league average contract terms and the decline of Carpenter's option really foreshadowed the Unger trade.

I don't think we would have resigned a Jason Peters or a Tyron Smith caliber tackle at market value even if we had them. Big Walt -- man that's a first ballot HOF and that's a silly way to make an argument. Of course you make an exception for him. But I don't see us in any way rolling out the Brinks truck to resign say a Hutchinson quality OG if we had that kind of quality here. The roster (and the players we've chosen to keep) indicate a clear mandate for frugality on the OL.

You can't pay everyone. And we essentially chose to pay everyone BUT the OL group. We made that choice even before we started letting our talent go on the open market.

I don't know. They didn't pay Tate, Mebane, Irvin, Browner, Maxwell, and Thurmond. There's some pretty good talent in that group that they didn't keep, because they weren't quite at the "core" level.

Dib said they pay players who are consistently healthy, play at a high level, and are deemed irreplaceable and that seems true to me. None of Okung, Carpenter, or Sweezy fit the bill of core player. We don't know what would happen if we had an offensive lineman who played at a Sherman/Kam/Earl level and stayed that healthy because we've never had one.

My issue is that they should pay OL once in a while to avoid the scenario we have had the last 2 years where we are replacing 2 or more positions on the line and tanking the OL play the first half of the season. If they paid Okung, we'd only be replacing Sweezy, although they seem determined to roll the dice by not starting Lewis the last 2 years so we're replacing C as well.

 

[triggs1957]

After seeing what PC and JS did for this team in just four years then i have to trust the coaching staff will have a much better OL then we had last year.

 

[kearly]

The financial decision/OL dump stat stuff is really overblown around here. If we had Walter Jones on the roster they would be paying him. Most of the guys we have let walk in FA have been injury prone and/or played inconsistently for us, and many of them have netted large contracts elsewhere that meant compensation picks for us (and not overpaying an average player). If Gilliam becomes Peters 2.0 and Ifedi becomes Yanda 2.0 then they'll both get huge extensions and people can instead discuss whether we overpay for OL in Seattle.

It's easy to miss the trees for the forest here because our OL spending is low right now. However, if you look at each player individually the decisions are easy to follow. The move that looks the worst with the benefit of hindsight wasn't a salary dump at all but trading a player who could not stay healthy for an expensive star who never got hurt from a team trying to cut salary. Of course Graham gets hurt and Unger stays healthy (for once) and we're all miserable but bad outcomes do not always mean the thought process was bad, and that trade wasn't about undervaluing the OL in general.

I completely agree.

 

[kearly]

The reason for optimism on Gilliam is quite simple.

Upon review of his 2015 performance he was very rarely beaten by speed. In terms of a pure speed rush he handles it generally superbly. Finding an offensive tackle with the athleticism, foot speed and lateral mobility is the hardest part. He can match up against the league's best speed DE's. Tom Cable even suggested there's only one edge rusher in the NFL that can beat Gilliam with a speed rush.

Where he struggled was vs power or when DE's get into his frame. The key thing here is you can't teach foot speed or the level of athleticism Gilliam possesses. You can get stronger and you can improve hand technique.

Gilliam already looks significantly bigger in the upper body based on photo's he's posted on social media. Hopefully with an extra year in the system and with further coaching he can also work on some of his technical flaws. If he makes improvements here he could be an exceptional left tackle.

If Gilliam went to the Eagles like Peters did, I might view his prospects differently. Gilliam is a finesse player in a hard-nosed system. He does okay against speed rushers but struggles with physicality and rarely gets much push in the run game. In a more pure ZBS with a very good OL coach he could be a good player. But so far Cable's track record for evaluating and developing young talent in Seattle is questionable.

I think Gilliam is where he is because Seattle doesn't have anyone better and doesn't pick high enough in the draft to find a good left tackle option who fits Cable's wonky preferences. Free agency isn't much better, which is why our second string tackle is Bradley Sowell.

For me, I just hope Gilliam isn't a liability. If he starts 16 games and doesn't kill us, to me that is a big win.

 

[Tical21]

The reason for optimism on Gilliam is quite simple.

Upon review of his 2015 performance he was very rarely beaten by speed. In terms of a pure speed rush he handles it generally superbly. Finding an offensive tackle with the athleticism, foot speed and lateral mobility is the hardest part. He can match up against the league's best speed DE's. Tom Cable even suggested there's only one edge rusher in the NFL that can beat Gilliam with a speed rush.

Where he struggled was vs power or when DE's get into his frame. The key thing here is you can't teach foot speed or the level of athleticism Gilliam possesses. You can get stronger and you can improve hand technique.

Gilliam already looks significantly bigger in the upper body based on photo's he's posted on social media. Hopefully with an extra year in the system and with further coaching he can also work on some of his technical flaws. If he makes improvements here he could be an exceptional left tackle.

If Gilliam went to the Eagles like Peters did, I might view his prospects differently. Gilliam is a finesse player in a hard-nosed system. He does okay against speed rushers but struggles with physicality and rarely gets much push in the run game. In a more pure ZBS with a very good OL coach he could be a good player. But so far Cable's track record for evaluating and developing young talent in Seattle is questionable.

I think Gilliam is where he is because Seattle doesn't have anyone better and doesn't pick high enough in the draft to find a good left tackle option who fits Cable's wonky preferences. Free agency isn't much better, which is why our second string tackle is Bradley Sowell.

For me, I just hope Gilliam isn't a liability. If he starts 16 games and doesn't kill us, to me that is a big win.

Yep. Man I'm really nervous about Gilliam. It is a nice theory that he's a better fit at LT, but I don't remember EVER hearing about a guy that was an average RT suddenly becoming a good player moving to the left side. The pass rushers might be a little smaller on that side, but they're also much more talented. It doesn't take that many bad plays from your LT to significantly increase the pounding your QB takes. Pounding from the backside means turnovers and injuries. At least from the front side, you've got a fighting chance. The last thing we need is for Russell to start feeling ghosts again. I'm not freaking out yet, I'm going to wait and see, maybe he's adequate, but I'm a little nervous.

 

[Jimjones0384]

What is the great faith bestowed on Gilliam based on?

Athleticism and improvement through the course of last season

 

[hawk45]

Yep. Man I'm really nervous about Gilliam. It is a nice theory that he's a better fit at LT, but I don't remember EVER hearing about a guy that was an average RT suddenly becoming a good player moving to the left side. The pass rushers might be a little smaller on that side, but they're also much more talented. It doesn't take that many bad plays from your LT to significantly increase the pounding your QB takes. Pounding from the backside means turnovers and injuries. At least from the front side, you've got a fighting chance. The last thing we need is for Russell to start feeling ghosts again. I'm not freaking out yet, I'm going to wait and see, maybe he's adequate, but I'm a little nervous.

Thank you for saying this. I have felt that there is every bit as much reason to be pessimistic on Gilliam at LT as there is to be optimistic for this very reason, and have struggled to understand the extrapolation that has gone on based upon a very solid season at RT, a completely different position - and we know it is different because of the respective pay scales.

There is a very real chance that we will have hamstrung ourselves again the beginning of this season by being in a position to be playing new players at 4 positions. C, G, LT, RT. If we had re-signed Okung, not because of great value but purely in the interests of minimizing OL turnover in a given year, we would only be playing new players at G, and at C because Cable - when faced with OL turnover - seems determined to dig the hole even deeper by ignoring Lewis.

 

[jammerhawk]

A fair bit of negativity here on this subject.

I'm sure we all recognize that capable LTs are difficult to source, but they are not guaranteed by draft position and athletic ability is essential. Gilliam has proven superior athleticism, and improved steadily throughout the season. With each of Carpenter, Unger, & Okung there were cumulative injury vs. salary concerns and each was being overpaid for their onfield return to the team each had lost a very significant % of regular season game to injury and each of Okung and Unger were not getting younger and the injuries had affected their ability to perform at the level of pay they expected. It was right not to renew any or trade them if advantageous, unless the renewal was friendly to the team. I frankly thought Okung needed to go and Unger was hurt too much as was Carpenter although he seemed to have worked through his initial predisposition to injury by hithe end of his rookie deal, however he'd missed significan time and wasn't likely to be paid big $ by the team. I'm sure the team likely wanted to keep Sweezy but his new deal was way more than the team wanted to pay and they likely thought they could find a comparable player cheaper.

Changes needed to be made as the OLine as a whole certainly wasn't playing at all well. The team has numerous extremely athletic replacement level players here now and it will remain to be seen if Coach Cable can mould this group into a cohesive effective OLine. In that regard I agree with kearleys' observtion that Coach Cable is somewhat overrated in trms of his ability to create a cohesive and effective OLine. This a very important offseason for him as a lot of the team's offensive potential success depends on him creating that cohesive and effective OLine, he may run out of excuses if he fails. Perhaps however if the key parts of the OLine can stay healthy and grow into each of their respective new positions the approach of the team will be advantageous. It's however a bit of a stretch to expect 5 new starters at 5 new starting positions to immediately be able to play at a really high level together. There is a lot riding on this for a lot of people.

Fotunately as stated above we have numerous very superior athletic candidates for Cable to mould into the parts he wants them to be. There is superior size as well. At least with that there is hope he could succeed. Progress needs to be seen soon though.

Time alone will answer the questions posed by this bold approach to a resolution of this team problem.

 

[Largent80]

^ Jammers post is awesome. I will just be short and say, did you watch last years O-Line and the answer to the original question is obvious.