Why no jet sweep with lockett

[JustTheTip]

Cause he can successfully run routes downfield and understand how to beat zone defenses.

This. Was going to post pretty much the same thing. While there is nothing wrong with gimmicky plays here and there, when your physically talented wide receiver actually understands and develops the skill set necessary to be successful, you don't have to rely on the gimmicky plays to get him involved.

 

[DavidSeven]

Harvin averaged over 10.4 YPC on rushing plays with the Seahawks (combine 2013 postseason and 2014 regular season). Almost all of those plays were designed sweeps. That is insanely successful.

That awful Dallas game seems to be the only thing people remember about Harvin's time here. He actually had a number of huge plays in his short stint with the team.

That said, Lockett doesn't have the same type of speed. He's extremely fast in his own way, but Harvin was a burst guy. Probably one of the fastest guys this league has seen in the first 5-10 yards.

You need to re-examine what "huge plays" means.

He also had more bad plays than good plays.

If you re-watch the games against the Vikings, Saints, Broncos 1, Packers, Broncos 2, Redskins (wiped away), you will see he had huge plays (either by impact or yardage) in each of those games. Hell, he even scored a 50 yard TD in the Chargers game before pulling himself out.

He didn't really play in any other games for Seattle, except for Dallas which was a disaster.

The TD against the Chargers is the only really great thing I can remember from that game. And if I remember correctly, he stepped out of bounds along the way and didn't get called for it. Am I remembering that properly?

Yes, should've been called back, but still the biggest play Seattle had on the day. Harvin wasn't the reason we lost that game. It was Rivers dinking-and-dunking our defense to death in 100 degree weather. Our offense barely got to play.

 

[Dizzlepdx]

Harvin averaged over 10.4 YPC on rushing plays with the Seahawks (combine 2013 postseason and 2014 regular season). Almost all of those plays were designed sweeps. That is insanely successful.

That awful Dallas game seems to be the only thing people remember about Harvin's time here. He actually had a number of huge plays in his short stint with the team.

That said, Lockett doesn't have the same type of speed. He's extremely fast in his own way, but Harvin was a burst guy. Probably one of the fastest guys this league has seen in the first 5-10 yards.

Diving a little deeper:
Let's assume all rushes were sweeps.
2013: 1 for 9 yards against the Saints, then in the SB, 30 and 15.
2014: Against GB- 13, 9, 16 and 3.
Against SD-51 and -6
Against Was-6 and 1.

I stand corrected, those are extremely productive numbers.

But even with those, I wouldn't want TL running the same because I think it really hurts the passing game. All the underneath to mid-range passing game that everyone is so happy to see, I believe is a direct result of having him and Kearse pushing safeties back.

 

[bjornanderson21]

Teams figured how to stop Harvin on those plays and it wasn't just the Dallas game it was the redskin game as well.

The Redskins game where he had three TDs wiped away by ticky-tac penalties?

I'm no Harvin fan. I just think it's a mis-characterization to say the Harvin plays never worked.

He didn't have 3 td's taken away. He had one TD taken away 3 times and they weren't all ticky tacky penalties. It is impossible to score 3 TDs on one drive therefore it is impossible to take away 3 TDs on one drive.

Also, his only regular season TD came from the refs not seeing he clearly stepped out of bounds (twice i believe...).

No one said the plays NEVER worked, but the success rate quickly went down to the point that it was not a worthwhile play to run.

Harvin is also very much to blame for the failure. Every team in the NFL saw the same thing on tape that i saw: he only ran at 70% speed if the play wasn't designed for him. Once or twice he ran fast to act as a decoy, but every other time he clearly was going much slower because he wasn't getting the ball.

Harvin running full speed = getting the ball and continuing towards the sideline.

Harvin not running full speed = seahawks only playing with 10 real players and the defense didn't have to respect him.

The only times we ever saw him get double teamed were designed plays downfield for him where he's running fullspeed, and he had a hard time actually catching those passes.

Harvin was like a poker player with an obvious "tell". NFL teams quickly picked up on when Harvin was a real part of the play and when he was merely a decoy who failed to do his job

 

[HawkGA]

For those of you saying we shouldn't see Jet Sweeps with NoE because he can run routes downfield . . . . are you saying you wouldn't want to see him get an extra touch or two by doing a jet sweep?

I'm hoping it's something they bust out in the playoffs. Anything to surprise and turn a potential big play and then give teams something extra to worry about.

 

[Dizzlepdx]

Teams figured how to stop Harvin on those plays and it wasn't just the Dallas game it was the redskin game as well.

The Redskins game where he had three TDs wiped away by ticky-tac penalties?

I had forgotten about those. Weren't those all on passing plays? (I'm still agreeing with you, just for the sake of the discussion)

 

[Dizzlepdx]

Teams figured how to stop Harvin on those plays and it wasn't just the Dallas game it was the redskin game as well.

The Redskins game where he had three TDs wiped away by ticky-tac penalties?

I'm no Harvin fan. I just think it's a mis-characterization to say the Harvin plays never worked.

He didn't have 3 td's taken away. He had one TD taken away 3 times and they weren't all ticky tacky penalties. It is impossible to score 3 TDs on one drive therefore it is impossible to take away 3 TDs on one drive.

Also, his only regular season TD came from the refs not seeing he clearly stepped out of bounds (twice i believe...).

No one said the plays NEVER worked, but the success rate quickly went down to the point that it was not a worthwhile play to run.

Harvin is also very much to blame for the failure. Every team in the NFL saw the same thing on tape that i saw: he only ran at 70% speed if the play wasn't designed for him. Once or twice he ran fast to act as a decoy, but every other time he clearly was going much slower because he wasn't getting the ball.

Harvin running full speed = getting the ball and continuing towards the sideline.

Harvin not running full speed = seahawks only playing with 10 real players and the defense didn't have to respect him.

The only times we ever saw him get double teamed were designed plays downfield for him where he's running fullspeed, and he had a hard time actually catching those passes.

Harvin was like a poker player with an obvious "tell". NFL teams quickly picked up on when Harvin was a real part of the play and when he was merely a decoy who failed to do his job

Holy crap, no one said we should have kept him, just talking about whether or not the sweep was/is a good weapon.

 

[theincrediblesok]

I say we do it a few times with Lockett to see if it works because teams will not expect that. Didn't Doug do it a bit this season?

 

[Dizzlepdx]

For those of you saying we shouldn't see Jet Sweeps with NoE because he can run routes downfield . . . . are you saying you wouldn't want to see him get an extra touch or two by doing a jet sweep?

I'm hoping it's something they bust out in the playoffs. Anything to surprise and turn a potential big play and then give teams something extra to worry about.

I don't really want to see it. I think there's ways to get the ball to him in a better position.

 

[DavidSeven]

Teams figured how to stop Harvin on those plays and it wasn't just the Dallas game it was the redskin game as well.

The Redskins game where he had three TDs wiped away by ticky-tac penalties?

I had forgotten about those. Weren't those all on passing plays? (I'm still agreeing with you, just for the sake of the discussion)

First was a read-option handoff that he ran wide (sorta like a sweep). Second was a bubble screen on the same drive. Third was a deep TD pass (in a later drive). Of those three, I'd say two of the "Harvin play" variety, though we ran bubbles before and after Harvin's time.

But yeah, I agree with your general point. The WR rushes aren't really something I need to see again, especially with this personnel (beyond maybe using as a sporadic change-up).

 

[The Outfield]

We're saving it for the playoffs of course.

See: Percy Harvin in Superb Owl XLVIII

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... 0-yard-run

 

[Treghc]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a jet sweep during the playoffs. Not a bad idea to utilize new plays to counter the studies of the opposing defense.

 

[theincrediblesok]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a jet sweep during the playoffs. Not a bad idea to utilize new plays to counter the studies of the opposing defense.

I like this idea, use the jet sweep a few times against the Vikings, the Panthers will see the film, when they see the motion and alignment, we go deep on the play instead, fooling the defense to try and stop a run.

 

[chris98251]

No, just no, it took a season for that play not to be called, if it works once Bevell will call it every series and or the bubble screen. He fell in love with it and tried to use most the play makers on the roster in that position till I think they went on strike if he called it again.

Give me a good screen instead.

 

[sutz]

The fact is that the jet sweep is incredibly easy to defend if you know it's coming or expect it. With Harvin, it worked the first time, then not so well after that. It's a play you kind of have to set up for it to work effectively, no matter who the ball carrier is. Last year, we went to it several times. If the DE and the CB stay home and set the edge properly, the play goes nowhere and is likely to lose yards. It is, after all just another form of a reverse play. If you catch the D off guard, you get positive yardage and possibly a big play. If the D is disciplined and stays home, you're lucky to get back to the LoS.

It wouldn't surprise me if we try it in the playoffs, but only because we haven't used it much since Harvin left. What we'll probably see is No-E, or other WR in motion behind the formation on a fake reverse a few times, and then pop the real one when they think the D is set up properly.

Strategy, guys.

 

[Dizzlepdx]

For whatever it's worth, I'm rewatching the previous Vikes game and we ran an end around to Lockett in the first quarter for 7 yards.

 

[Seahawk Sailor]

The fact is that the jet sweep is incredibly easy to defend if you know it's coming or expect it. With Harvin, it worked the first time, then not so well after that. It's a play you kind of have to set up for it to work effectively, no matter who the ball carrier is. Last year, we went to it several times. If the DE and the CB stay home and set the edge properly, the play goes nowhere and is likely to lose yards. It is, after all just another form of a reverse play. If you catch the D off guard, you get positive yardage and possibly a big play. If the D is disciplined and stays home, you're lucky to get back to the LoS.

It wouldn't surprise me if we try it in the playoffs, but only because we haven't used it much since Harvin left. What we'll probably see is No-E, or other WR in motion behind the formation on a fake reverse a few times, and then pop the real one when they think the D is set up properly.

Strategy, guys.

This is very true. The jet sweep is also a tricky one to learn, as the timing has to be perfect, the blocking has to be perfect, and the defense has to be a step behind in anticipation. It's a play that even if it works extremely successfully, often only goes for 10-20 yards or so. Sometimes it breaks, but it's not as easy to break as say, a run up the middle, where once you're past the initial line, you're often left with only a safety or two to beat.

My guess is that they are working on it. But it's going to be a rarely used feast-or-famine type play, and they have to get the timing perfect before they even try it, because if the timing's off, very bad things can happen.

I'd rather see Lockett burning CBs for 40 yard gains than seeing him running jet sweeps.

This is very true, and even with moderate success with the jet sweep, the odds of a touchdown or big gain with this type of play are higher. This type of play also wears the defensive secondary out and opens the middle of the field up for bigger plays.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

It's probably a play we'll see if the defense shows the matchup Pete wants for it.

 

[Mistashoesta]

If there is one thing that I don't miss, it's those damn jet sweeps.

 

[HawkGA]

The fact is that the jet sweep is incredibly easy to defend if you know it's coming or expect it. With Harvin, it worked the first time, then not so well after that. It's a play you kind of have to set up for it to work effectively, no matter who the ball carrier is. Last year, we went to it several times. If the DE and the CB stay home and set the edge properly, the play goes nowhere and is likely to lose yards. It is, after all just another form of a reverse play. If you catch the D off guard, you get positive yardage and possibly a big play. If the D is disciplined and stays home, you're lucky to get back to the LoS.

It wouldn't surprise me if we try it in the playoffs, but only because we haven't used it much since Harvin left. What we'll probably see is No-E, or other WR in motion behind the formation on a fake reverse a few times, and then pop the real one when they think the D is set up properly.

Strategy, guys.

But wouldn't it be good toforce the DE and CB to stay home? I don't think anybody is calling for it to be a staple of the offense (maybe they are). But it seems like a good play to run every now and then and fake a few times as well.