Wilson hasn't progressed as I had anticipated

[Jville]

A lot of players progress in unanticipated ways. It's not like we on the outside develop a day to day working repertoire with any of them.

Resorting to blaming this and that is not a vehicle to sail thru the process of development and understanding. Blame is more like the act of dropping an anchor.

 

[Steve2222]

Pete Carroll hasn't progressed as I had anticipated. I thought he would've learned after the last 3 seasons how the offense has been run, but sadly nope.

It has been a tale of two offenses, for a long time.

1) The Pete Carroll "philosophy" offense. They run this at the start of games, and as long as they have the lead. A stagnant, condensed, antiquated 1970's Offense that gets your QB killed. Pete never got the memo that Bill Walsh came along and killed that style 30 years ago.

2) The Russell Wilson offense. AKA the 2 min offense. They run this when they go 2min at the end of the 1st half. And then again when they have no choice, but to abandon "Pete" ball because they have to score points, usually in the 4th qtr.

They spread the field, go single back, and more importantly Russell Wilson gets to make the majority of the calls.

2017 STATS

PETE BALL 1st QTR: 4 TDS, 3 INTS, 58%, 74.6 Passer Rating, Sacked 14 Times.

RUSS BALL 4th QTR: 18 TDS, 1 INT, 68%, 134.1 Passer Rating, Sacked 3 Times. THREE TIMES, that is it.

The Sacks really expose the situation. Russ should be getting sacked more in the 4th qtr, not less. The Seahawks are trailing most of the time in the 4th, and everyone know they are throwing it. The run game is abandoned, yet only sacked
3 times.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/nfl-seahawks-bears-brian-schottenheimer-pete-carroll-russell-wilson

The lack of creativity was startling, especially when juxtaposed with a Bears offense that has infused a bunch of college-inspired concepts into its scheme in order to take advantage of Mitch Trubisky’s mobility. The Seahawks, meanwhile, treated Wilson like a late-career John Elway.

"Read Option, Sprint Right Option, Speed Option….TE Screen, Gap Screen, Slot Screen, Bubble Screen, RB Screen….Draw, Sprint Draw, Play Action Off Draw…No Huddle, Muddle Huddle, Quick Break Huddle…Many ways to use Bears aggressiveness against them. Seen almost none of this"

— Brock Huard (@BrockESPN) September 18, 2018

Pete has failed.

Great read. Good stuff man.

 

[FlyingGreg]

I do

You would be wrong. Bears are much improved and have one of the best defenses in the league.

 

[FlyingGreg]

Pete Carroll hasn't progressed as I had anticipated. I thought he would've learned after the last 3 seasons how the offense has been run, but sadly nope.

It has been a tale of two offenses, for a long time.

1) The Pete Carroll "philosophy" offense. They run this at the start of games, and as long as they have the lead. A stagnant, condensed, antiquated 1970's Offense that gets your QB killed. Pete never got the memo that Bill Walsh came along and killed that style 30 years ago.

2) The Russell Wilson offense. AKA the 2 min offense. They run this when they go 2min at the end of the 1st half. And then again when they have no choice, but to abandon "Pete" ball because they have to score points, usually in the 4th qtr.

They spread the field, go single back, and more importantly Russell Wilson gets to make the majority of the calls.

2017 STATS

PETE BALL 1st QTR: 4 TDS, 3 INTS, 58%, 74.6 Passer Rating, Sacked 14 Times.

RUSS BALL 4th QTR: 18 TDS, 1 INT, 68%, 134.1 Passer Rating, Sacked 3 Times. THREE TIMES, that is it.

The Sacks really expose the situation. Russ should be getting sacked more in the 4th qtr, not less. The Seahawks are trailing most of the time in the 4th, and everyone know they are throwing it. The run game is abandoned, yet only sacked
3 times.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/nfl-seahawks-bears-brian-schottenheimer-pete-carroll-russell-wilson

The lack of creativity was startling, especially when juxtaposed with a Bears offense that has infused a bunch of college-inspired concepts into its scheme in order to take advantage of Mitch Trubisky’s mobility. The Seahawks, meanwhile, treated Wilson like a late-career John Elway.

"Read Option, Sprint Right Option, Speed Option….TE Screen, Gap Screen, Slot Screen, Bubble Screen, RB Screen….Draw, Sprint Draw, Play Action Off Draw…No Huddle, Muddle Huddle, Quick Break Huddle…Many ways to use Bears aggressiveness against them. Seen almost none of this"

— Brock Huard (@BrockESPN) September 18, 2018

Pete has failed.

Good stuff. Keep in mind when we are running two-minute, that's usually against a prevent type defense as well.

 

[Jville]

Pete's failed ...... Wilson's failed ..... and the call to fire the latest OC has already dropped anchor ... LOL

[tweet]https://twitter.com/FireSchotty1/status/1042240924980469765[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stipp75/status/1042270404952244224[/tweet]

 

[Popeyejones]

What do you think is happening when they go to their 2 min offense?

What do you think is happening?

I want your opinion.

Well, nobody wants my opinion, but I'll jump in and give it. :lol:

There's nothing special going on in the Seahawks' two minute offense, what changes is the defense.

So, let's not talk about two minute offense, let's talk about the Bears and two minute defense.

BEFORE HALFTIME:

If you're up by 10 and going into 2 minute defense, holding the offense to a 56 yard field goal attempt is essentially a stalemate. A TD or a 30-40 yard field goal would be a win for the offense, and no FG attempt would be a win for the defense. In a two minute defense your trading yards for the clock draining down.

END OF GAME:

If you're up by 14 with 3 minutes left, and can grind the clock so that you're up by 1 touchdown with 15 seconds left, that's a win for the defense. At the end of the game you're trading yards and even points for the clock draining down.

Basically, a team running their two minute defense is an invitation to an offense to pad their stats in exchange for the clock running out. It's why defenses leave the 5-7 yard pass to the RB over the middle entirely open -- if the RB doesn't break a tackle and gain more than 10 yards that is a win for the defense. It's a weird thing in which a RB dropping that pass is actually less favorable for the defense (it stops the clock) than the RB catching the pass and getting tackled under 10 yards.

Put another way, the Seahawks, like every other team, are more successful moving the ball in a two minute offense not because of them, but because the situation causes defenses to INVITE THEM to move the ball in exchange for clock time.

 

[xray]

The 2 minute offense works because they play sandlot football . That is what Wilson is good at . He plays by instinct and plays faster. He doesn't have time to think which gets him in trouble. He can't be coached like a conventional NFL QB.

 

[fenderbender123]

Wilson looks great when the opposing defense plays prevent. That's about it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

:roll:

 

[ducks41468]

Wilson has regressed because the rest of the roster and coaching staff has regressed. Imagine that. It's like people are expecting him to replicate last year's Houston game every week.

 

[Jville]

It's September.

The NFL is still a learn and adapt league. It's back and forth. Adjust and readjust.

 

[Seymour]

Pete Carroll hasn't progressed as I had anticipated. I thought he would've learned after the last 3 seasons how the offense has been run, but sadly nope.

It has been a tale of two offenses, for a long time.

1) The Pete Carroll "philosophy" offense. They run this at the start of games, and as long as they have the lead. A stagnant, condensed, antiquated 1970's Offense that gets your QB killed. Pete never got the memo that Bill Walsh came along and killed that style 30 years ago.

2) The Russell Wilson offense. AKA the 2 min offense. They run this when they go 2min at the end of the 1st half. And then again when they have no choice, but to abandon "Pete" ball because they have to score points, usually in the 4th qtr.

They spread the field, go single back, and more importantly Russell Wilson gets to make the majority of the calls.

2017 STATS

PETE BALL 1st QTR: 4 TDS, 3 INTS, 58%, 74.6 Passer Rating, Sacked 14 Times.

RUSS BALL 4th QTR: 18 TDS, 1 INT, 68%, 134.1 Passer Rating, Sacked 3 Times. THREE TIMES, that is it.

The Sacks really expose the situation. Russ should be getting sacked more in the 4th qtr, not less. The Seahawks are trailing most of the time in the 4th, and everyone know they are throwing it. The run game is abandoned, yet only sacked
3 times.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/09/nfl-seahawks-bears-brian-schottenheimer-pete-carroll-russell-wilson

The lack of creativity was startling, especially when juxtaposed with a Bears offense that has infused a bunch of college-inspired concepts into its scheme in order to take advantage of Mitch Trubisky’s mobility. The Seahawks, meanwhile, treated Wilson like a late-career John Elway.

"Read Option, Sprint Right Option, Speed Option….TE Screen, Gap Screen, Slot Screen, Bubble Screen, RB Screen….Draw, Sprint Draw, Play Action Off Draw…No Huddle, Muddle Huddle, Quick Break Huddle…Many ways to use Bears aggressiveness against them. Seen almost none of this"

— Brock Huard (@BrockESPN) September 18, 2018

Pete has failed.

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:

Pay this man!!

Great post and brings facts to the table to support the common sense, passes the eye test evaluation.

 

[SnapDan]

Wilson is great in the pocket...when he has one! Remember 2015, I still believe Wilson and not Cam should of been MVP that year.

Look back at his TDs this year and I feel like the majority are standing in the pocket. I saw someone say Rodgers is great because he doesnt hold the ball too long, but that also helps he has the choice. Look at his 2 TDs against the Bears last week, he had 6 seconds in the pocket without moving on one and 8 on the last one to Cobb. That's the kind of stuff Russ dreams of.

The play calling is boring and plain and looks the same as last year, people aren't getting open to release the ball quicky, you watch the Chiefs, Eagles under foles etc and someone is open straight away off the snap.

Wilson does do things wrong, but there is a witch hunt brewing against the wrong person, its everyone else who should be getting outed before Russ

 

[adeltaY]

I thought Wilson had a chance to be an all time great early on, especially after 2015....

 

[chris98251]

The title should be

Pete has not allowed Wilson to progress as I had anticipated

Pete seems to not trust anyone to make decisions.

 

[mrt144]

He seems to have plateaued. It's the same old shat over and over. Play like trash for two or three quarters, switch it up to the two minute offense at some point giving us a chance to win with no margin for error, and either pull off an amazing win, or go down in flames.....

It's odd. Now at nearly 30 he doesn't have the wheels like he did at one time to get out of trouble. I'm really disappointed he hasn't taken steps to become a dynamic pocket passer.

Looked real bad against a mediocre Bears team. I hope we don't pay him Rodgers money.

I don't think 'sink or swim' is the best technique to get the best out of people. And that is seemingly what they're doing at the moment.

It's almost like Pete believes 'if we can master this super obvious thing that has a higher learning curve to do well, we'll be unstoppable' never considering that his platonic ideal is less efficient and in fact a lot harder to master.

"If we can survive getting our faces getting ripped off by a leopard, we can survive anything!" is all well and good until you're down 3 or 4 faces.

 

[kf3339]

What do you think is happening when they go to their 2 min offense?

What do you think is happening?

I’m not a coach so my opinion might be stupid, but I think the coaching staff is holding him back.

When we’re behind, this is when I believe that in the 4th he goes off script and plays with urgency.

Why don’t we play with urgency all the time? I don’t get it. Let Russ run the offense, what the hell do we have to lose anyways.

We’re 0-2. Either the coaching staff gets their head out of their ass or you need to let Russ do his thing.

^ I made this exact point 2+ years ago saying that RW should just disregard the coaches and call his own plays in the huddle and/or audible at the line when needed. I was called out by some on this board that he can't ignore the coaches decisions. That's not how it works.

Well, nothing has changed. We still have a crappy offense with only a modest change when he goes off script.

The issue is now PC and his value to this team today and long term.

 

[mrt144]

What do you think is happening when they go to their 2 min offense?

What do you think is happening?

I’m not a coach so my opinion might be stupid, but I think the coaching staff is holding him back.

When we’re behind, this is when I believe that in the 4th he goes off script and plays with urgency.

Why don’t we play with urgency all the time? I don’t get it. Let Russ run the offense, what the hell do we have to lose anyways.

We’re 0-2. Either the coaching staff gets their head out of their ass or you need to let Russ do his thing.

^ I made this exact point 2+ years ago saying that RW should just disregard the coaches and call his own plays in the huddle and/or audible at the line when needed. I was called out by some on this board that he can't ignore the coaches decisions. That's not how it works.

Well, nothing has changed. We still have a crappy offense with only a modest change when he goes off script.

The issue is now PC and his value to this team today and long term.

Disregarding coaches is generally a bad thing where so much coordination is needed. But if it happens, especially with RW doing so, that should be enough impetus to question where they went wrong - that RW, the pluckiest and most loyal puppy has turned on them. And at least they wouldn't be at a loss as to what's wrong with him, they'd know that he doesn't trust them anymore and the ball is in their court on how to deal with it.

 

[JimmyG]

What do you think is happening when they go to their 2 min offense?

What do you think is happening?

I want your opinion.

Well, nobody wants my opinion, but I'll jump in and give it. :lol:

There's nothing special going on in the Seahawks' two minute offense, what changes is the defense.

So, let's not talk about two minute offense, let's talk about the Bears and two minute defense.

BEFORE HALFTIME:

If you're up by 10 and going into 2 minute defense, holding the offense to a 56 yard field goal attempt is essentially a stalemate. A TD or a 30-40 yard field goal would be a win for the offense, and no FG attempt would be a win for the defense. In a two minute defense your trading yards for the clock draining down.

END OF GAME:

If you're up by 14 with 3 minutes left, and can grind the clock so that you're up by 1 touchdown with 15 seconds left, that's a win for the defense. At the end of the game you're trading yards and even points for the clock draining down.

Basically, a team running their two minute defense is an invitation to an offense to pad their stats in exchange for the clock running out. It's why defenses leave the 5-7 yard pass to the RB over the middle entirely open -- if the RB doesn't break a tackle and gain more than 10 yards that is a win for the defense. It's a weird thing in which a RB dropping that pass is actually less favorable for the defense (it stops the clock) than the RB catching the pass and getting tackled under 10 yards.

Put another way, the Seahawks, like every other team, are more successful moving the ball in a two minute offense not because of them, but because the situation causes defenses to INVITE THEM to move the ball in exchange for clock time.

Yes, this is the correct answer, not the "Wilson is freed from the shackles of his OC during the 2 minute drill" nonsense.

Think of how much time is run off the clock when a team completes a 12-yard-pass over the middle of the field. It takes a lot of time for the next play to happen -- the official has to re-set the ball, everyone has to get up to the line of scrimmage, they've got to snap the ball... it's not uncommon to see an intermediate pass over the middle suck up like 20 seconds of valuable clock time.

Also, to add to this, it's a "bend, don't break" mentality. Blitzing is a gamble -- it makes the defense susceptible to big plays. The last thing you want in a late-game situation is a long touchdown. Instead, you want to play vanilla coverage, and do everything you can to milk the clock. You protect against deep passes, and you protect against sideline throws. You play lax coverage over the middle of the field.

Look at the last drive of the game on Monday. The Hawks went 99 yards... but they used up 2:28 of the 2:42 remaining in the game. For the Bears, that's a win. Even in the event of a successful onside kick, you're basically talking about 10 seconds remaining on the clock. For all intents and purposes the game is over.

 

[Fade]

What do you think is happening when they go to their 2 min offense?

What do you think is happening?

I want your opinion.

Well, nobody wants my opinion, but I'll jump in and give it. :lol:

There's nothing special going on in the Seahawks' two minute offense, what changes is the defense.

So, let's not talk about two minute offense, let's talk about the Bears and two minute defense.

BEFORE HALFTIME:

If you're up by 10 and going into 2 minute defense, holding the offense to a 56 yard field goal attempt is essentially a stalemate. A TD or a 30-40 yard field goal would be a win for the offense, and no FG attempt would be a win for the defense. In a two minute defense your trading yards for the clock draining down.

END OF GAME:

If you're up by 14 with 3 minutes left, and can grind the clock so that you're up by 1 touchdown with 15 seconds left, that's a win for the defense. At the end of the game you're trading yards and even points for the clock draining down.

Basically, a team running their two minute defense is an invitation to an offense to pad their stats in exchange for the clock running out. It's why defenses leave the 5-7 yard pass to the RB over the middle entirely open -- if the RB doesn't break a tackle and gain more than 10 yards that is a win for the defense. It's a weird thing in which a RB dropping that pass is actually less favorable for the defense (it stops the clock) than the RB catching the pass and getting tackled under 10 yards.

Put another way, the Seahawks, like every other team, are more successful moving the ball in a two minute offense not because of them, but because the situation causes defenses to INVITE THEM to move the ball in exchange for clock time.

Good theory, but if you watched last season, they only consistently saw prevent against Tennessee, Jax, at home against the Rams (which he ended up doing nothing in.) They were in every game save for those 3 which he padded his stats in 2 of them verses prevent. Please account for the other 13 games, bearing in mind the Rams game actually hurt his stats.

Now account for the sacks. Why is he getting sacked far more in the 1st qtr than the 4th qtr?
4th qtr sacked only 3 times ? When everyone knows you're throwing it? In 13 games he wasn't consistently seeing prevent, they either had the lead, or were right there within a score, or two.



Just look at the Bears game.

17 points scored during "Russ Ball", sacked 1 time. Yes a garbage time TD at the end. still makes it.

10 points, 1 sack

vs.

0 points during "Pete Ball" sacked 5 times.

Read the article I linked. Wilson is being square pegged, round holed by a dated scheme.

My final thought is this. If you were any other team in the NFL. The Chiefs, The Patriots, The Browns, The Bills, it doesn't matter. Would you want to run Pete Carroll's Offensive Scheme? Put yourself in their shoes. The answer will quickly be HELL NO!