Wilson Saids Newton Is MVP

[Hawkpower]

Not surprised by a lot of your responses.

You get to the end zone, in an NFL game, you get the right to celebrate. You’ve worked hard. You’re a professional athlete. If you don’t get a chance to celebrate in the pros, when do you get a chance to celebrate? When do you get to show what you can do – to enjoy yourself?

This is a game. Some people who have never played it, who have never expressed passion, sit behind desks all day and do that. Maybe you celebrate sometimes when you do something great, and nobody judges you, because nobody is watching. As you’re watching him, enjoy it, because he is enjoying it. He can enjoy his craft. If he wants to celebrate, that’s fine.

How about a 15 minute first down dance after a one and half yard run at your own 18 yard line with 13:37 left in the first quarter?

Right to celebrate. or a bit much?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Not surprised by a lot of your responses.

You get to the end zone, in an NFL game, you get the right to celebrate. You’ve worked hard. You’re a professional athlete. If you don’t get a chance to celebrate in the pros, when do you get a chance to celebrate? When do you get to show what you can do – to enjoy yourself?

This is a game. Some people who have never played it, who have never expressed passion, sit behind desks all day and do that. Maybe you celebrate sometimes when you do something great, and nobody judges you, because nobody is watching. As you’re watching him, enjoy it, because he is enjoying it. He can enjoy his craft. If he wants to celebrate, that’s fine.

How about a 15 minute first down dance after a one and half yard run at your own 18 yard line with 13:37 left in the first quarter?

Right to celebrate. or a bit much?

Is that a whole lot different than the nonsense Graham, Kearse or Baldwin do after getting a first down with their chest thumping and "what time is it?" antics?

 

[RussB]

The fans say......

FAN VOTES DONT MATTER!!!!! CAM NEWTON IS THE NEXT MICHAEL JORDAN!!!!!

 

[Hasselbeck]

Cam isn't any different than Jim Kelley. Kelley made it to the SB 4 times and never won one, and is not in a conversation about MVP.

This is one of the worst comparisons I've ever seen.

...

Anyway on to the topic at hand .. Maybe Russ is saying Cam is MVP because.... he is MVP?

I know, I know. Far fetched here.

 

[Tech Worlds]

Cam isn't any different than Jim Kelley. Kelley made it to the SB 4 times and never won one, and is not in a conversation about MVP.

This is one of the worst comparisons I've ever seen.

...

Anyway on to the topic at hand .. Maybe Russ is saying Cam is MVP because.... he is MVP?

I know, I know. Far fetched here.

Exactly. It's disrespectful to a HOF'er like Kelley to compare him to someone like Kam.

 

[Boycie]

The fans say......

FAN VOTES DONT MATTER!!!!! CAM NEWTON IS THE NEXT MICHAEL JORDAN!!!!!

I won't believe it until I see him repping Hanes ginch, or until he stars in the next Space Jam movie.

 

[formido]

The fans say......

I didn't know this is how we decide who the MVP of the regular season is............in that case Joe Montana's my MVP.

Cam Newton is the MVP, and he should be, he had a terrific year stats wise and Win/Loss wise. That's that. Doesn't mean he's a better QB than Russell, doesn't mean he's going to win Sunday, or win a SB.

Sure doesn't, as David Robinson knows only too well.

Though to be fair, I find this (common) philosophy of MVP thinking logically incoherent. I mean, if MVP literally just means, by definition, "what the majority of voters think, regardless of their ignorance", then yeah Kam is obviously tautologically the MVP. I think a more defensible notion of MVP is "the player who has the biggest effect on wins and losses[1]". This definition admits the idea that voters could actually pick the wrong MVP, particularly if they are lazy thinkers. And it would allow us to look behind sound bite stats (like team record) and adjust for, e.g., play rate and quality of opponents.

In my own view, I don't think anyone can confidently say which of Newton, Wilson, or Palmer has created more wins for their team this year, particularly if you take care to account for all of each player's effects, like the way Wilson and Newton open up the run game for their teams.

I'd probably go with Wilson, gun to my head.

[1] Even this definition has problems, as wins at the margins are harder and worth more -- the so-called Andrew Luck Paradox.

 

[seahawkfreak]

"Here is the story if you don't believe me." LMAO. No one here cares that Cam is going to be the MVP. Good for him.

Interestingly, the "freak from SC" does not care about any awards given by the NFL to any players not wearing a Seahawk uniform. :roll:

So someone from an opposing fan base comes on here and basically says ' see even Russell Wilson says Cam deserves the MVP' , doesn't deserve a response of irritation? I would have liked RW to win the MVP and even though you know me so well I really don't care that he is not. Pretty sure Ive been pretty consistent on here on saying, in the end, winning games is the only thing that is important.

 

[Anthony!]

Hmm I knw he said that and what would you expect him to say. That said form a stats perspective he should not be

Newton 7 games with a QB rating below 80, 5 below 75, 3 below 70,1 below 60 did not even complete 60% of his passes

Just to compare
Wilson had 1 game below 80,

Let’s compare them
Cam qb rating 99.4, QBR 66.1, 3837 yards, 7.74 ypa, 59.8 complt%, 35 tds, 10 ints 3.5/1 td/int ratio, 636 rushing yards, 10 tds, 4.8 ypa rushing, 4473 total yards, 45 total tds
Wilson QB rating 110.1, QBR 74.9, 4024 yards, 8.33 ypa, 68.1 complt%, 34 tds, 8 ints, 4.25/1 td/int ratio, 553 rushing yards, 1 td, 5.4 ypa, 4577 total yards, 35 total tds

So let’s see
Qb rating WILSON
QBR WILSON
Passing Yards WILSON
Passing YPA WILSON
Complt% WILSON
Passing TDS CAM
Ints WILSON
TD/INT Ratio WILSON
Rushing Yards CAM
Rushing TDs CAM
Rushing YPA WILSON
Total Yards WILSON
Total Tds CAM

So out of 13 stats Wilson Leads in 9 HMM
Now let’s add in QBR
Wilsons QBR was 74.9 4th in the league, Cams 66.1 9th so Wilson wins there too. Add to that Wilsons QBR passing was 85.4, running 17.9, Cams 70.4 passing, 17.5 rushing so Wilson wins in both categories.
Newton’s team won more games against the 4th easiest schedule in the NFL, that is why he will win. Wilson faced the 3rd hardest

Now Footballoutsiders DVOA and DYAR

DYAR or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the quarterback 's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.
Cam- 11
Wilson 3rd
DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense.
Cam-12
Wilson-3

Wilson again


Of course his team won 15 games. Interesting they have a top 6 defense and run game but he is the MVP but when wilson had a MVP type season it was because of the defense and run game. I guess being east cost, #1 pick, and 6+ foot tall goes a long way

 

[Hasselbeck]

Hmm I knw he said that and what would you expect him to say. That said form a stats perspective he should not be

Newton 7 games with a QB rating below 80, 5 below 75, 3 below 70,1 below 60 did not even complete 60% of his passes

Just to compare
Wilson had 1 game below 80,

Let’s compare them
Cam qb rating 99.4, QBR 66.1, 3837 yards, 7.74 ypa, 59.8 complt%, 35 tds, 10 ints 3.5/1 td/int ratio, 636 rushing yards, 10 tds, 4.8 ypa rushing, 4473 total yards, 45 total tds
Wilson QB rating 110.1, QBR 74.9, 4024 yards, 8.33 ypa, 68.1 complt%, 34 tds, 8 ints, 4.25/1 td/int ratio, 553 rushing yards, 1 td, 5.4 ypa, 4577 total yards, 35 total tds

So let’s see
Qb rating WILSON
QBR WILSON
Passing Yards WILSON
Passing YPA WILSON
Complt% WILSON
Passing TDS CAM
Ints WILSON
TD/INT Ratio WILSON
Rushing Yards CAM
Rushing TDs CAM
Rushing YPA WILSON
Total Yards WILSON
Total Tds CAM

So out of 13 stats Wilson Leads in 9 HMM
Now let’s add in QBR
Wilsons QBR was 74.9 4th in the league, Cams 66.1 9th so Wilson wins there too. Add to that Wilsons QBR passing was 85.4, running 17.9, Cams 70.4 passing, 17.5 rushing so Wilson wins in both categories.
Newton’s team won more games against the 4th easiest schedule in the NFL, that is why he will win. Wilson faced the 3rd hardest

Now Footballoutsiders DVOA and DYAR

DYAR or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the quarterback 's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.
Cam- 11
Wilson 3rd
DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense.
Cam-12
Wilson-3

Wilson again


Of course his team won 15 games. Interesting they have a top 6 defense and run game but he is the MVP but when wilson had a MVP type season it was because of the defense and run game. I guess being east cost, #1 pick, and 6+ foot tall goes a long way

Give Wilson Cam's weapons and I have a hard time believing he comes close to the numbers Cam put up.

Sorry but Cam's MVP and it's not close.

 

[Tech Worlds]

Hmm I knw he said that and what would you expect him to say. That said form a stats perspective he should not be

Newton 7 games with a QB rating below 80, 5 below 75, 3 below 70,1 below 60 did not even complete 60% of his passes

Just to compare
Wilson had 1 game below 80,

Let’s compare them
Cam qb rating 99.4, QBR 66.1, 3837 yards, 7.74 ypa, 59.8 complt%, 35 tds, 10 ints 3.5/1 td/int ratio, 636 rushing yards, 10 tds, 4.8 ypa rushing, 4473 total yards, 45 total tds
Wilson QB rating 110.1, QBR 74.9, 4024 yards, 8.33 ypa, 68.1 complt%, 34 tds, 8 ints, 4.25/1 td/int ratio, 553 rushing yards, 1 td, 5.4 ypa, 4577 total yards, 35 total tds

So let’s see
Qb rating WILSON
QBR WILSON
Passing Yards WILSON
Passing YPA WILSON
Complt% WILSON
Passing TDS CAM
Ints WILSON
TD/INT Ratio WILSON
Rushing Yards CAM
Rushing TDs CAM
Rushing YPA WILSON
Total Yards WILSON
Total Tds CAM

So out of 13 stats Wilson Leads in 9 HMM
Now let’s add in QBR
Wilsons QBR was 74.9 4th in the league, Cams 66.1 9th so Wilson wins there too. Add to that Wilsons QBR passing was 85.4, running 17.9, Cams 70.4 passing, 17.5 rushing so Wilson wins in both categories.
Newton’s team won more games against the 4th easiest schedule in the NFL, that is why he will win. Wilson faced the 3rd hardest

Now Footballoutsiders DVOA and DYAR

DYAR or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the quarterback 's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.
Cam- 11
Wilson 3rd
DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense.
Cam-12
Wilson-3

Wilson again


Of course his team won 15 games. Interesting they have a top 6 defense and run game but he is the MVP but when wilson had a MVP type season it was because of the defense and run game. I guess being east cost, #1 pick, and 6+ foot tall goes a long way

Give Wilson Cam's weapons and I have a hard time believing he comes close to the numbers Cam put up.

Sorry but Cam's MVP and it's not close.

I would say it is close. But Cam Newton team won the games. That's what matters folks.

 

[Polaris]

Actually I think that if Wilson had caught fire about a week or two sooner, Wilson would either be the league MVP or seriously contending for it because of these numbers. However, the media is a vary narrative driven industry and the Narrative was Cam/Brady/Palmer for too long and I think Wilson caught fire too late to change that narrative.

 

[Anthony!]

Hmm I knw he said that and what would you expect him to say. That said form a stats perspective he should not be

Newton 7 games with a QB rating below 80, 5 below 75, 3 below 70,1 below 60 did not even complete 60% of his passes

Just to compare
Wilson had 1 game below 80,

Let’s compare them
Cam qb rating 99.4, QBR 66.1, 3837 yards, 7.74 ypa, 59.8 complt%, 35 tds, 10 ints 3.5/1 td/int ratio, 636 rushing yards, 10 tds, 4.8 ypa rushing, 4473 total yards, 45 total tds
Wilson QB rating 110.1, QBR 74.9, 4024 yards, 8.33 ypa, 68.1 complt%, 34 tds, 8 ints, 4.25/1 td/int ratio, 553 rushing yards, 1 td, 5.4 ypa, 4577 total yards, 35 total tds

So let’s see
Qb rating WILSON
QBR WILSON
Passing Yards WILSON
Passing YPA WILSON
Complt% WILSON
Passing TDS CAM
Ints WILSON
TD/INT Ratio WILSON
Rushing Yards CAM
Rushing TDs CAM
Rushing YPA WILSON
Total Yards WILSON
Total Tds CAM

So out of 13 stats Wilson Leads in 9 HMM
Now let’s add in QBR
Wilsons QBR was 74.9 4th in the league, Cams 66.1 9th so Wilson wins there too. Add to that Wilsons QBR passing was 85.4, running 17.9, Cams 70.4 passing, 17.5 rushing so Wilson wins in both categories.
Newton’s team won more games against the 4th easiest schedule in the NFL, that is why he will win. Wilson faced the 3rd hardest

Now Footballoutsiders DVOA and DYAR

DYAR or Defense-adjusted Yards Above Replacement. This gives the value of the quarterback 's performance compared to replacement level, adjusted for situation and opponent and then translated into yardage.
Cam- 11
Wilson 3rd
DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense.
Cam-12
Wilson-3

Wilson again


Of course his team won 15 games. Interesting they have a top 6 defense and run game but he is the MVP but when wilson had a MVP type season it was because of the defense and run game. I guess being east cost, #1 pick, and 6+ foot tall goes a long way

Give Wilson Cam's weapons and I have a hard time believing he comes close to the numbers Cam put up.

Sorry but Cam's MVP and it's not close.

Really lets see, no Graham, no Lynch, no Rawls, no Willson, realy? Olsen, Ginn, Stewart. Really, yeah ahh no. The add in playing one of the 5 easiest schedule sin the NFL while we played one of the 5 hardest. Sorry but I agree he gets it, but it is very close.

 

[fan4life]

Cam is a showman, a self-promoter, a #1 draft pick that took time to mature into what was projected for him.

RW was a later-round draft pick that most believed was a smart choice as a back-up. Despite 3 years of working hard and playing smart, disciplined football -- which provided many opportunities to showcase his unique brilliance -- RW didn't become the MVP until his coaches let him. They had no choice after Lynch, Rawls and Graham went down! At 5'11", RW has had to prove the doubters wrong since forever. And he's comfortable with that (or, at the very least, has accepted that as HIS reality.)

I'm not sure who's had the harder path to greatness. But I AM sure they're both great QBs, both MVPs to their teams and franchises. I hope to see some great rivalry games from them for years to come. Cam's team did well during the regular season this year and he'll get recognized with an MVP-award. I'm glad our QB is not too proud to congratulate him! After all, he's got a SB and two NFC Championship awards on his resume

And has his team in contention, again :mrgreen:

 

[Sports Hernia]

Who let you out of the PWR?

Sorry, I left the cage door unlocked. 8)

 

[Sports Hernia]

I really don't care about MVP awards (an individual award) the only award that matters to me is the team award, it's called the Lombardi Trophy. Super Bowl rings or bust!


MVP awards in the late 90's and early 2000's for Seattle Mariners players never got them to a World Series.

 

[olyfan63]

Regular season MVP is a media driven award, and Cam is deserving of the media MVP award. What's so hard about that? Why do we care? In my mind, the reason Wilson does NOT deserve MVP is the 5 4th quarter losses where the Seattle offense did NOTHING at crunch time and just went 3-and out and set the table for the opponent's comeback. Wilson's historic 5-game hot streak was amazing, but then was followed by 2 out of 3 clunker games, against the Rams and then later the Vikings. (Yes, the weather was a factor)

Cam had 3 4th quarter comebacks this year, Wilson had 2. That tells a story right there. When we needed that big drive against tough opponents this year, we mostly didn't get it. How much of that is Russell, how much is O-Line, how much is Bevell crap play calling, how much is handcuffs from Pete, who knows. Bottom line is Wilson didn't do enough over the course of the whole season to deserve MVP. That pretty much leaves Cam and Carson Palmer. It's close, but I'd choose Cam.

I think Seattle fans really misread the Cam towel "pouting" body language. There really just isn't much there. Last year a Carolina fan challenged us to look at photos of Cam with towel and "pouting" and guess the game situation. I took the challenge, and was surprised to find that body language that looks like "pouting" on the surface is better understood as Cam's "thinker" pose, as he thinks over the game and thinks about what he needs to do on the next series. The other thing that became apparent with a longer look is Cam's leadership and how the Panthers team truly does trust and follow his leadership.

Cam is an amazing athlete who somehow turned into a very good QB over the last season and a half, without most Seahawks fans noticing his progress. Wilson is a better passing QB, for sure, but Cam has become a legit NFL passer, and is the top running QB in the league right now.

 

[Rob12]

Cam will win it, and I guess it's deserved.

But don't bank on a win on Sunday, Carolina fans. I think Cam struggles, for the reasons mentioned below by Kenneth Arthur from Field Gulls:

It just so happens that the Seahawks were the best defense Newton faced this season, and by a fairly significant margin. The Panthers strength of schedule isn't really up for debate -- It was the easiest in the NFL. Pro-Football-Reference says so, as does FootballOutsiders. Or any metric really. It is a fact. The only thing Carolina seems to want to put up for debate is that SoS doesn't even matter. I mean, 50 years of Super Bowl history probably says otherwise, but whatever. The Giants won two Super Bowls with average teams, so who cares, right?

I'm still going to be citing SoS, so if that upsets you, or if DVOA pisses you off, maybe stop reading. (Though you might still be surprised by the ending. It's a real Shyamalan.)

Newton faced the Seahawks in Week 6 and Seattle ranked fourth in overall defense by DVOA, third against the pass, third against the run, first in touchdown passes allowed, first in points allowed, sixth in net yards per pass attempt, and first in rushing yards allowed. That's some real good defense.

Only the Broncos, Panthers, and Cardinals were better.

But the only other top 10 defenses Newton faced this season were the Texans (in Week 2, and Houston's rank of eighth overall is heavily influenced by being fourth in Weighted defense thanks to a strong finish) and the Packers (ninth overall, sixth against the pass.)

Newton had four games against teams ranked in the top 13 (3, 8, 9, 13) and 12 games against teams ranked in the bottom half of the NFL. All of that contributed to Carolina's strength of defenses faced being ranked 32nd in the league. Now, fans will argue that A) that's bullshit or B) it doesn't matter and C) you can only play the schedule you're given.

A and B are ignorant arguments fueled by insecurity, but C is certainly true. The Panthers played the schedule they were given, turned in a 15-1 record, and scored the most points. Some lucky team gets the easiest schedule every season*** and you don't see them winning 15 games. Point: Carolina.

But the Panthers were 10th in net Y/A, 10th in yards per carry, eighth in offensive DVOA, ninth in passing, and sixth in rushing. Did they do as much as they should be expected to do given that they have faced very little in terms of above-average talent and coaching on defense?

In Newton's three games against Seattle, Houston, and Green Bay, these were his passing numbers:

53-of-103, 51.4%, six touchdowns, four interceptions, 7.38 Y/A, and a passer rating of 78.9.

It sucks that we don't have a larger sample size, but that's also kind of the point. One game against a great defense, two or three games against a good defense, and then a whole lot of games against "Alabama State A&M Tech Southern of Kensington College." (Also known as the 2015 New Orleans Saints.)

Sometimes what you did is less important than what you can prove. Maybe the Panthers are the best team in football. It is certainly possible. But there isn't a lot on the table that shows why they'll be able to beat not just the Seahawks, but the Cardinals, and possibly the Broncos, Chiefs, Patriots, or Steelers. The next three games -- should Carolina make it that far -- will be against the three best teams they've faced all year.

What Newton won't be facing this week is a pass defense ranked 26th or worse, which he did six times this year with these results:

123-of-196, 62.7%, 17 touchdowns, two interceptions, 8.05 Y/A, and a passer rating of 112.5.

Now, every player boosts their numbers against bad teams. Wilson does it. Palmer does. Everybody does it. But that isn't the point because again, we aren't talking about the MVP race, we're talking about this game. And just like I said about Aaron Rodgers in the NFC Championship game last year, and Peyton Manning in the Super Bowl a year earlier when he was coming off the greatest season by a quarterback of all-time: Newton will struggle to complete meaningful passes against the Seahawks.

Sure, Newton is the regular season MVP. But that doesn't matter at all now. Historically, he struggles against the Seahawks. He's reduced to an average QB when he faces very good defenses.