Seahawks Passing Offense observation

Hey all
May have been my imagination, and unfortunately I don't have time right now to go back and check, so popping this out there to those who have been keeping a keen eye on this kind of stuff and with better football knowledge

Seems the passing game against 49ers was much more improved.

One thing that I have mentioned often is that the bubble screens rarely work unless it was Lynch or Harvin. However, a delayed screen where the backfield leask out (Turbin, Lynch) or tight end (Moeaki) seems to be money. It was good to see that.

Something else I "think" I noticed, seems like many of Russell's drop backs that were successful AND got him lots of time to throw were not your traditional drops (3-step, 5-step) but instead a read-option where Russell scrambles deep and out of his own pocket, like 10 yards or more back. There were definitely a lot of plays that he got incredible pass protection, even before scrambling

Second observation: mentioned many times there are three things that our pass offense needs: pass protection to let plays develop, Russell to go through his reads efficiently, and receivers to run good routes and get separation. With these above plays with Russell getting lots of time, there were enough plays for me to notice that the pass rush still got to him after about 4 to 5 seconds and Russell had to scramble to extend plays even more and eventually had to run for short yardage or little yardage.

So what's going on here? I mean lots of possibilities:

The receivers with all that time are still not getting open?

Bad plays that don't get our receivers open?

Pedestrian receivers not athletic enough to get separation?

Russell not being able to see where the open guy is quickly?

Russell being too conservative and not trusting the receivers for 50/50 balls?

Or....?


p.s. Definitely nice to see Russell get time to throw on a lot of those plays: 16 for 25 (64%), 215 yards, 8.6 ypp, 0 INT, 104.6 Rating. *still sacked 4 times though

Until we get an O-line that can pass protect for more than half a second, and upgrade the talent at WR and TE, then our passing game is going to be hit and miss........... mostly miss.

But give credit to Russell, Pete and Bevell........they do a good job of calling plays that allow Russell to create if there's nothing there (because they all know 75% of the time nothing will be there).

Ball protection (no turnovers) seems to be high on the list of things for Russell. Especially against teams like the Niners. He's less likely to throw unless clearly open and relies on his ability to escape to make a play in the air or running. For example, Rivers can't run like Russell, so focuses on staying in the pocket and looking for any throw available. Of course, Rivers has much more experience and has learned to read/manipulate defenses.

Not to be an a-hole but this paragraph:

"Second observation: mentioned many times there are three things that our pass offense needs: pass protection to let plays develop, Russell to go through his reads efficiently, and receivers to run good routes and get separation. With these above plays with Russell getting lots of time, there were enough plays for me to notice that the pass rush still got to him after about 4 to 5 seconds and Russell had to scramble to extend plays even more and eventually had to run for short yardage or little yardage"

If you gave this to every QB in the NFL, 75% would have a successful outing. The great QBs do something when everything doesn't go right.

I'd say on average, 40% of the time, our OL blows a protection early, due to a missed read, poor block, or a bad scheme/play call. 35% of the time, our WRs aren't doing enough and 25% of the time, Wilson misses a read (this isn't horrible...most QBs miss reads when you go back and look at the All 22). This is estimation on my part, or a scientific WAG, gained from watching games, replays etc.

Also, the 4 to 5 second thing......every QB should be getting rid of the ball in 5 seconds. That's all you're going to get in the NFL before the QB has to step up in the pocket or otherwise evade the rush. When that happens, he resets and then it's really up to QB talent how quickly he can reset and throw, throw from a bad position (off back foot, on the run, sidearm around a DLman, etc).

Not sure why you thought you were being an a-hole. Good points.

Maybe you thought my second paragraph was a positive?

Okay, rereading what I wrote, yeah it's confusing

The first part was positive, he's getting more time. They figured out that he can't do traditional drops so they did those read options and scrambling deep and away which gives him a lot more time, 4 to 5 seconds.

The second part, I meant to post that as a negative. It's negative that 1) he needs to scramble deep to get 4 to 5 seconds. He cannot get that staying in the pocket which is a minus. He still only gets a few seconds for his reads when he has to immediately go out of pocket And 2) Russell needs more than 4 to 5 seconds to get rid of the ball. He can't and had to scramble even when he has more than decent time to release the ball

Maybe I wasn't clear about that. Your points are totally on par with what I'm worried about which is what the series of questions after the above paragraph in my OP were about. Mostly thinking within 4 to 5 seconds, like you said, a QB should be able to pass the ball.

Are the receivers not able to get separation? Because they surely can finish running their routes.

Bad routes? Bad plays? Too pedestrian?

Or is it they are actually open, but Russell can't see it?

I'm optimistic that the more reps Richardson and Norwood get, the more they will develop. Obviously, the O Line is a matter unto itself.

One thing I'm not seeing is timing patterns, where he throws the ball before the receiver cuts. It looks like he waits to see that someone is really open before he throws it.

Leee-roy":3l5vyijr said:

One thing I'm not seeing is timing patterns, where he throws the ball before the receiver cuts. It looks like he waits to see that someone is really open before he throws it.

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Hate to over simplify, but I see more timing routes when we are playing from behind or need to score quickly. I'm starting to think Pete doesn't like them because he doesn't want opponents jumping the routes. Soooo, as long as our D is playing well, I don't expect to see any routes or throws that take unnecessary chances (as defined by Pete). If we are ahead and the D is playing well, it's takeaway on defense and keep away on Offense.

Hawks46":3c1lorv6 said:

Also, the 4 to 5 second thing......every QB should be getting rid of the ball in 5 seconds. That's all you're going to get in the NFL before the QB has to step up in the pocket or otherwise evade the rush. When that happens, he resets and then it's really up to QB talent how quickly he can reset and throw, throw from a bad position (off back foot, on the run, sidearm around a DLman, etc).

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It's more like three seconds. A good NFL offensive line is expected to give the QB three seconds in the pocket before coming under pressure. After that the ball is expected to be out or the QB will have to move off his spot to buy more time. Too often Wilson is under pressure inside of the three second window but he also frequently does not get the ball out when he does have the three seconds, either because of a lack of separation by his receivers or his reluctance to throw into tight windows because of it being drilled into him to not make mistakes. The timing in the passing game seems to be out of synch too often and relies too heavily on Wilson's ability to improvise.

The offensive line is doing a better job this year. Not great, but better. Wilson has had 4-5 seconds and not found a WR. Our WR's are not pedestrian. Tate in Detroit proves that because we had the same problem last year and the year before.

I think Cosell is right. Our routes are too simplistic.

From what I have seen lately is the O-Line is doing a better job and can only improve. The passing offense will get better with every game.

I would say it is in this order

Time to throw
Wr routes way to simple
Wr not getting open
Wr unable to win battles
Rw being drilled into him not to make mistakes

byau":34g0wwle said:

The second part, I meant to post that as a negative. It's negative that 1) he needs to scramble deep to get 4 to 5 seconds. He cannot get that staying in the pocket which is a minus. He still only gets a few seconds for his reads when he has to immediately go out of pocket And 2) Russell needs more than 4 to 5 seconds to get rid of the ball. He can't and had to scramble even when he has more than decent time to release the ball

Maybe I wasn't clear about that. Your points are totally on par with what I'm worried about which is what the series of questions after the above paragraph in my OP were about. Mostly thinking within 4 to 5 seconds, like you said, a QB should be able to pass the ball.

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I honestly think that Russ actually makes this a positive. He is one of the best - if not the best - at throwing on the run; he is VERY accurate. When he runs around, defenses have to respect the fact that he can run and as a result coverages can break down. Throwing/running lanes just open up like the Red Sea. The pump fake that he does freezes the defenders, even for a split second, is all that is needed to gain a first down and even BIG plays result. They don't happen all the time; but they do enough to change the complexion of games. This is part of the IT factor that Russ has that cannot be measured.

When the blitz is on they are actually giving Wilson some safety valves with guys staying in and moving side to side. When the pocket collapses Wilson starts to take off and move his feet. This is when linebackers and dbs start breaking off their guys and praying that Wilson keeps it. When they guess wrong they are burnt one way or another! :th2thumbs:

Sorry, basically quoted the guy above without even reading his post. I guess by post 20 or so someone has taken my job in stating the obvious!

My 2 cents. Our guys are pro's and while not Moss clones, they can and do run correct routes. My observation is, given that our O-line is marginal at pass pro, and also I think coached to just let the guy go if beaten, and rely on Wilsons ability to bail them out, only our primary #1 option runs out his route, and everyone else drops to sandlot ball. Find a hole somewhere, work back to the Qb, or release to open a hole for someone else. Makes us look like Pop Warner but is actually more like organized chaos.

I think this is why, for the last couple games anyway, Bevell has incorporated more leak routes. I could be wrong, but it seems to me we had more chip and release plays the last 2 weeks than in all our other games so far this year. Maybe some of this is just moving on from the Percy plays we used to start the year with.

SalishHawkFan":t54ywoi9 said:

The offensive line is doing a better job this year. Not great, but better. Wilson has had 4-5 seconds and not found a WR. Our WR's are not pedestrian. Tate in Detroit proves that because we had the same problem last year and the year before.

I think Cosell is right. Our routes are too simplistic.

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It's got to be something like this. Looking at AZ, even when they run a zone, they have guys right where the route is going. It's like they set up the zone, and the WRs funnel themselves right into coverage. They are familiar with us, and simplistic route trees would also explain this.

And, Hawknpeppa, you may be onto something with Pete not liking timing throws, but I never see Wilson throw to an open spot in a zone, knowing the WR is reading the defense the same and is going to be there. Typically, that's really hard to jump that, because the WR isn't even there yet. Often times, it's what beats us. Sherman is probably the best in the league at jumping those routes (typically a back shoulder fade), but he studies WRs and finds tendencies. It's also why he gives up the occasional reception when a WR runs something that was on tape, then does something atypical or a wrinkle is thrown in. It's also why you'll see our defense give up a few receptions in a first half, then shut a team down in the 2nd half.

Then again, if you coupled anticipatory throwing to the holes with simplistic route trees, you could get Safeties knowing which part of a zone to vacate, and which part to jump. Option routes will usually alleviate this though; you get a WR that says "ok I see this so I go here. If I see that, then I go there." and the QB reads the same thing. Option routes are very difficult to defend, especially out of the slot when a WR can go any direction he wants and isn't dictated by the sideline. Welker has been making a living the last decade and setting records, with option routes.

I'm almost positive Wilson ran something like this at NC State. He ran a West Coast offense, and those are usually chock full of option routes. It's also why the timing and chemistry were so critical between QB and WR. Homgren's offenses were a thing of beauty to watch when they worked right, the problem I always had with them was when a WR gets hurt, the next man up typically didn't have those reps and see the defense the exact same way as the QB, which screwed a lot up. But I digress.

Russell seems to be bailing the pocket too early and is always looking for something better. He has guys open early and fails to pull the trigger. He doesn't step up into good pockets and usually bails out 20 yards in the wrong direction. He has started to step up in the pocket more than he ever has, but still isn't doing it enough. He doesn't seem to be seeing open guys in the middle of the field.

I think his biggest problem is that he is looking for "something better" instead of throwing the ball on time. He gets away with it because of his ability to escape, but he really doesn't need to. Russell is DEFINITELY holding the ball way too long, not Tarvaris long, but it's close. If he didn't have movement skills he'd probably be dead by now.

Russ threw a couple of rainbow passes last week. my explanation for why this is so important to me might sound stupid, but here it is: Pressing quarterbacks don't take anything off a pass and hang it on the green side of the pass catcher.

And Russ was pressing. He was trying to be too accurate, and with that he was really gunning the ball. He is at his best when like Brees, he puts the ball on the uncovered side of a guy and lets him make the play.

I have a lot of complaints about our passing game, few have to do with Russ. I think our pass catchers are some of the worst in the league at being physical in the 5 yard area(this is not a size issue), I think our routes are under par in design, and in an effort to not turn the ball over we avoid the zone behind the linebackers. But when Russ is playing well he makes up for a lot of that, and it feels to me like he has turned a corner in his play.