Do you REALLY want him gone?

[Sgt. Largent]

Well thought out post. The Pete hate is crazy. Last year would have looked a lot like this one had 'hapless' Pete not changed the trajectory of the offense. And this year, although their gamble to assemble an interior pass rush failed, the fact that they still managed to finish top 10 in scoring defense is pretty incredible. The fact that they are now doing it missing key pieces is nuts.

Pete's flaw is exactly what you said. Believing in some cases a bit too much in allowing players to do what they do and be who they are. It's his strength in that in many cases, you harness the best a player has to offer and uncover brilliance that they wouldn't or couldn't find elsewhere. But at the QB position with Wilson, his embracing Russ's strengths and weaknesses and building a system around them has to degree (and I think more because Russ isn't aware of his weaknesses) cemented who he is, good and bad. And now, when his game needs to shift to compensate for how defenses play him and his diminishing ability to run himself out of the troubles he sometimes creates for himself, he has neither the awareness and maybe now also less the ability to unlearn 10 years of habits to do what needs to be done. Russ, like any man or professional is ultimately responsible for his own improvement, but Pete has been complicit in creating who Russ is today. I think he just always believed Russ would believe in the system more than he did his own hype.

There's definitely a lot of Pete hate.

But there's also some of us fans who love Pete, but we know that he and Russell aren't on the same page with how they want to run the offense. That was clear last year, and it's been pretty clear this year.

I'm in the minority on this board in thinking that Pete has been using Russell correctly all this time, and catering his offense to Russ's strengths.

The problem is Russell doesn't agree with Pete's let's focus the offense on a really strong run game opening up play action and your ability to make clutch plays in the 2nd half of games.

Russell thinks he's Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers, and wants the offense run through him all the time, and most importantly have the majority of the input on scheme and playcalling.

I don't agree with Russell, he's not those QB's and I wish he'd realize Pete's right. But I doubt that'll happen. Thus we're going to start hearing more trade me tweets and rumors in the next couple of months.

 

[LTH]

Both yes and no. I have complicated feelings about Russell Wilson. One thing we have to realize is that if we have to get rid of Wilson, finding a suitable replacement is going to be EXTREMELY hard. No matter what you feel about the player, that is one fact that you have to accept. It could be many years before we find a QB that is even serviceable.

On the other hand, I think we need to come to terms with a few things. The first is the lack of control that Pete, Schneider, or even a new coach will have over the situation. Russell Wilson has complete control over his own destiny. His contract stipulates that there is a no-trade clause. This means if he were to be traded, it was because he willed it to be so.

The second thing I think we're going to see is another off-season where Wilson potentially holds the franchise hostage. In Wilson's recent statements they are dripping with the type of doublespeak one would typically associate from Washington DC. Statements such as: “I know for me personally, I hope it's not my last game. But at the same time, I know it won't be my last game in the NFL." coming from a guy that has a no-trade clause in his contract strikes me as being extremely peculiar. In addition to that, his contract is such that cutting him is not really feasible. Wilson knows full well what he is doing. He's exerting power over the franchise and the front office with statements like this. At the very least, I suspect he's trying to get more involved in the player acquisition aspect, at the worst he's trying to force himself out.

If he were to force himself out, I wouldn't know what to think. On one hand, Wilson is, and always has been streaky as a player. His stats didn't always tell the story of whole halves of ineffectiveness, missed reads, 20 yard sacks, inability for the team to move balls for large swaths of seasons. After analyzing Wilson's playing some more, many of these failings are on Wilson himself. He plays an extremely limited game. He doesn't like to go to the middle, his timing and placement has always been wonky on the short passes. He also has always been over-indulgent when it comes to going for the big play. I'd contend that he has never been as good as his statistics say. That being said, flaws aside he's still been a better QB than most of the NFL has had floating anywhere from top 10 to top 3 over the years.

His improvisational and ability to create from thin air and move around were magical. He also had a moxie about him in the fourth quarter. His eyes would go dead and he would come back from impossible deficits. He's great in so many ways but in others he hasn't developed at all. His fundamentals in many respects are all over the place. His pocket presence is REALLY bad, more so that now his mobility isn't what it used to be. His ball placement on short, to short-intermediate routes is very bad. His ability to quickly diagnose things pre-snap has also been brought into question. Teams have been throwing disguised looks at him that he's struggled to diagnose ever since the NYG game and the infamous Cardinal game last season.

Quite frankly, our QB is an enigma and aberrations in many senses. I don't think I've ever seen a QB quite like Russell in the NFL. I think in Russ's case he needs an above average run game to function properly, more so than other QB's. Wilson is an elite game manager QB. He's never going to orchestrate an offense like Brady or Manning could, but if you give him the right tools he can win a lot of games for you and put up MVP level stats. The problem is, I don't think Wilson understands his flaws as a player. His rebuttal to the Lockett statement about teams switching things up post snap and "us" not diagnosing it is telling.

I think Carroll has also facilitated this huge holes in Wilson's game. I see a player that isn't held accountable, I see a guy that is living in his own world and refuses criticism. The demeanor of some of the players we had on the Seahawks over the years towards Wilson is telling. This is Carroll's fatal flaw as a head coach here. He's refused to hold Wilson accountable, and he's designed simplistic offenses that encourage players to be themselves. The downside is, it has put a huge hindrance on the development of Russell Wilson and has enabled him in the wrong ways.

Now, what should the Seahawks do? It's tough to tell. The relationship between Wilson and Carroll seems to be toxic in many ways. There is a great disconnect here. Can they repair it? I don't know. If they don't repair the relationship Wilson is going to fade away into obscurity. His play has been all over the place even before the injury. Teams with the right personnel have been able to make him largely ineffective. He's slowing down and he doesn't seem to be able to recognize that yet. Whether Wilson recovers will depend on whether or not he's able to dig down into himself and self-reflect. Players such as Steve Young, Rodgers, Tarkenton, and Cunningham were able to adapt once they starting losing some of their athleticism. Others, such as Donavon McNabb faded into obscurity.

If Carroll stays, I'm not sure if Wilson will ever be able to rise above himself. His struggles have been going on for far longer than his friends death, and injury. I'm not sure what the answer is. I know finding a QB is EXTREMELY hard, but I'm also aware that sometimes you have to know when to cut bait. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

I think the problem isn't as complicated as most think. Pete Needs to apply his always compete Philosophy with Wilson. they need to draft or pick up a QB that can compete with Wilson.

I think If I have a criticism of Pete, it would be that he didn't use his philosophy with Wilson. I'm not sure why maybe it was because they didn't want to spend the money on a QB that that had the talent to push Wilson. It was a mistake IMO.

I think Wilson is aware of his short comings. I think Pete is aware of his short comings how could he not? Pete Knows football better or as good as anyone in the NFL. I would lay down money that Pete over the years has had this conversation with Wilson. I just think that Wilson has supreme confidence, and he believes he can make a play from anywhere on the field at any time In which, he has made impossible plays. But now he is getting older, and he has some limitations that are on the Horizen.

It's up to Pete to coach him up and now the question arises is Wilson coachable at this point in his career? I think he is. Like I've said so many times in the past every great QB in the NFL comes to a crossroads to where they need to make adjustment in their game. the great HOF QB's are the ones who listen to their coaches and make that adjustment. It won't matter what team Wilson plays for he will still need to make that adjustment. I think he is making it.

I think this year has been a come to Jesus moment for Wilson. I think the combination of the Hawks installing a new O, the injury to Wilson, as well as the adjustment Wilson needs to make has been the major issue with the Hawks this year.

I think this team has an abundance of talent, I think this team is well coached, I think the offensive scheme is there. Any time any team can put up 51 points against any team in the NFL that is a sign this team is highly explosive. when this O is on track and firing on all cylinders there isn't a team in the league that can stop them. It's just a matter of getting the glitches worked out.


LTH

 

[TwistedHusky]

That is where we differ LTH.

I don't think Pete has the coaching acumen or ability anymore to compete with other quality NFL coaches.

He frankly was not that good at it before, but was a incredible motivator & roster builder to compensate.

(I do find it funny that: Playing the Lions = 'fixing the offense' in some people's heads but whatever)

My suspicion is that getting rid of Wilson is going to build a built in excuse for Pete defenders that they will milk for years, until his old age forces him off the sidelines.

But I can say with confidence that Pete won't make another meaningful playoff game as a coach in the NFL. Almost a certainty. Barely even a 10% chance at a wildcard playoff game sometime before he flames out and even that might be overly optimistic.

I don't hate the guy. He was instrumental in us getting a SB and winning for as long as we did. We should be grateful for that, and appreciate all has done. It was an amazing run.

But he outlived his usefulness and now does more damage than good the longer he stays. There is no upside with him anymore but plenty of left-over downside.

We will see. But I tend to be right about these things.

 

[LTH]

That is where we differ LTH.

I don't think Pete has the coaching acumen or ability anymore to compete with other quality NFL coaches.

He frankly was not that good at it before, but was a incredible motivator & roster builder to compensate.

(I do find it funny that: Playing the Lions = 'fixing the offense' in some people's heads but whatever)

My suspicion is that getting rid of Wilson is going to build a built in excuse for Pete defenders that they will milk for years, until his old age forces him off the sidelines.

But I can say with confidence that Pete won't make another meaningful playoff game as a coach in the NFL. Almost a certainty. Barely even a 10% chance at a wildcard playoff game sometime before he flames out and even that might be overly optimistic.

I don't hate the guy. He was instrumental in us getting a SB and winning for as long as we did. We should be grateful for that, and appreciate all has done. It was an amazing run.

But he outlived his usefulness and now does more damage than good the longer he stays. There is no upside with him anymore but plenty of left-over downside.

We will see. But I tend to be right about these things.

I'm not basing my opinion off of the Lions game. Although they could have scored 58 points. any time any team can score 58 points against any team in the NFL it's an explosive O. do they have it fixed? I don't know.

Let's see what happens vs the Cards. I don't think they are going to score 58 points vs the cards, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if they put up 30 . Hopefully they have it worked out. but we will see next week.


LTH

 

[TwistedHusky]

The Cards have something to play for and they do tend to give us fits.

If we roll out a fantastic offense against the Cards then it will certainly be a sign that the offense moving in a better direction.

 

[LTH]

This has been a crap year...although I have managed to enjoy most of the games except the 2nd loss to LA got my goat... that one just pissed me off

 

[keasley45]

That is where we differ LTH.

I don't think Pete has the coaching acumen or ability anymore to compete with other quality NFL coaches.

He frankly was not that good at it before, but was a incredible motivator & roster builder to compensate.

(I do find it funny that: Playing the Lions = 'fixing the offense' in some people's heads but whatever)

My suspicion is that getting rid of Wilson is going to build a built in excuse for Pete defenders that they will milk for years, until his old age forces him off the sidelines.

But I can say with confidence that Pete won't make another meaningful playoff game as a coach in the NFL. Almost a certainty. Barely even a 10% chance at a wildcard playoff game sometime before he flames out and even that might be overly optimistic.

I don't hate the guy. He was instrumental in us getting a SB and winning for as long as we did. We should be grateful for that, and appreciate all has done. It was an amazing run.

But he outlived his usefulness and now does more damage than good the longer he stays. There is no upside with him anymore but plenty of left-over downside.

We will see. But I tend to be right about these things.

I guess I just dont see where he lacks the acumen or the thought that he cant keep pace with 'modern' coaches, when the most successful coaches in today's game are pretty old school, and /or have top 5 franchise qbs at their disposal.

His intervention last year is what got us the division. And his coaching this year is what lifted a defense that had little up front push and suffered significant vacancies due to injury from where they should have been at the bottom of the league in every measurable category to one that will finish the league among the best in scoring. And I'd wager that if he had a qb playing the position the way he wants it played and frankly it should have been played this year, the defense would have been significantly better still, as would the offense.

I think the magic of Pete Carrol gets washed away in the chicken v egg confusion and debate around whether Pete built a team and plugged Russ in, used him to the best of his ability to find success, or whether Pete was just trodding along, doing Pete and lucking into a great defense that he managed to create ONLY because he was coming from the college ranks, and was SAVED by Wilson.

That, or it's become a question over the last few years as to whether his approach is stale because of how hot cold our offense has been and how middling the once great defense has become or whether its Pete making the best of a difficult situation at QB with a player he adamantly supports, but can see is struggling, and as a result of fixing the problem the only way he can without his qb improving (running more, which looks boring) seems aloof and like a has been. Not to mention, we've lost our entire identity in doing so.

I do think Pete has tied himself not to Peteball but to Russ's ship and has done so in the last few years to his and the teams detriment. Pete and John have built a team around a philosophy that is absolutkey still viable, but have compromised it significantly in ways that make it seem a failed approach because they are trying to embrace Russ, who is trying to do everything but comply.

Folks say that had Russ not been injured this year, we likely make the playoffs. I don't entirely agree because the trajectory of his measurable performance is situations like passing 3rd down conversions or success passing on likely passing downs has been on the decline and was before the injury. could we have made the playoffs this year? Absolutley. But it woukd have relied on just basic, sound fundamental and effiecienct qb play more than anything else.

 

[keasley45]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

 

[LTH]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

That might very well be the case. It could be the reason why Carroll has not brought in competition. I still would bring in another QB if I was Carroll.

If Russ chooses to push the team to trade him they need another QB.

if Russ stays for the remainder of his contract, they need another QB.

If Russ chooses to stay with Seattle, they need to push him like they do every other player on the roster...

Edit: i meant to say if Russ stay for the remainder of his contract, then leaves


Just my take


LTH

 

[DarkVictory23]

Scottemojo called it in the Russ's rookie year and I think it becomes truer by the season; Russ's career most closely mirror's Big Ben. They do it in different ways, but Big Ben was a play extending, deep ball master that rode an elite defense to multiple SBs and then couldn't get back even when he had elite offensive weapons like AB, Bell and Bryant all playing together in their prime. Big Ben also wasn't MVP also never won MVP.

You know, I was just thinking this the other day and it's really true (even though it pains me to say that because I hate Big Ben).

I think peak-Russ is better than peak Ben, though, but I also think both often have numbers that look better than their actual play in a lot of games.

ukeface:

Well, this is I guess the pinnacle of what you bring to any discussion regarding Russell Wilson. No nuance, no discussion, no counterargument... just vomit. Well done, sir.

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

I completely agree. Russ looked really good against the Lions, best he has in a long time, and it was because of... Penny. I mean, really.

As I said earlier, he's probably the BEST QB in the league in that role. But that's not the role he wants and I don't think he's anything but mid-tier or worse at the role he wants and that's the problem.

Pete isn't blameless in any of this and I'm one of those guys who doesn't really trust him, at this phase of his career and life, to be in charge of a rebuild but I think this team was just consistent QB performance away from the playoffs. (Also, consistent kicking would have helped in that as well).

 

[John63]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

Problem is his best games did not involve a run game. He has proven he can people like Salk and others are using this year as an excuse forgetting the injuries and ignoring all the other issues this team has most brought about by PC.

It is interesting how some forget in 2015 Wilson had his best season as. QB and was our 2nd leading rusher. With no 1k rusher. Or how in 2017.he accounted for over 80% of our yards and all but 1 td. He does not need a run game but like all great QBs a run game helps alot.

 

[keasley45]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

That might very well be the case. It could be the reason why Carroll has not brought in competition. I still would bring in another QB if I was Carroll.

If Russ chooses to push the team to trade him they need another QB.

if Russ stays for the remainder of his contract, they need another QB.

If Russ chooses to stay with Seattle, they need to push him like they do every other player on the roster...

Edit: i meant to say if Russ stay for the remainder of his contract, then leaves


Just my take


LTH

Don't disagree at all with bringing in a Qb who has the potential to be the next guy, as opposed to another T Jac or Geno.

 

[toffee]

Both yes and no. I have complicated feelings about Russell Wilson. One thing we have to realize is that if we have to get rid of Wilson, finding a suitable replacement is going to be EXTREMELY hard. No matter what you feel about the player, that is one fact that you have to accept. It could be many years before we find a QB that is even serviceable.

On the other hand, I think we need to come to terms with a few things. The first is the lack of control that Pete, Schneider, or even a new coach will have over the situation. Russell Wilson has complete control over his own destiny. His contract stipulates that there is a no-trade clause. This means if he were to be traded, it was because he willed it to be so.

The second thing I think we're going to see is another off-season where Wilson potentially holds the franchise hostage. In Wilson's recent statements they are dripping with the type of doublespeak one would typically associate from Washington DC. Statements such as: “I know for me personally, I hope it's not my last game. But at the same time, I know it won't be my last game in the NFL." coming from a guy that has a no-trade clause in his contract strikes me as being extremely peculiar. In addition to that, his contract is such that cutting him is not really feasible. Wilson knows full well what he is doing. He's exerting power over the franchise and the front office with statements like this. At the very least, I suspect he's trying to get more involved in the player acquisition aspect, at the worst he's trying to force himself out.

If he were to force himself out, I wouldn't know what to think. On one hand, Wilson is, and always has been streaky as a player. His stats didn't always tell the story of whole halves of ineffectiveness, missed reads, 20 yard sacks, inability for the team to move balls for large swaths of seasons. After analyzing Wilson's playing some more, many of these failings are on Wilson himself. He plays an extremely limited game. He doesn't like to go to the middle, his timing and placement has always been wonky on the short passes. He also has always been over-indulgent when it comes to going for the big play. I'd contend that he has never been as good as his statistics say. That being said, flaws aside he's still been a better QB than most of the NFL has had floating anywhere from top 10 to top 3 over the years.

His improvisational and ability to create from thin air and move around were magical. He also had a moxie about him in the fourth quarter. His eyes would go dead and he would come back from impossible deficits. He's great in so many ways but in others he hasn't developed at all. His fundamentals in many respects are all over the place. His pocket presence is REALLY bad, more so that now his mobility isn't what it used to be. His ball placement on short, to short-intermediate routes is very bad. His ability to quickly diagnose things pre-snap has also been brought into question. Teams have been throwing disguised looks at him that he's struggled to diagnose ever since the NYG game and the infamous Cardinal game last season.

Quite frankly, our QB is an enigma and aberrations in many senses. I don't think I've ever seen a QB quite like Russell in the NFL. I think in Russ's case he needs an above average run game to function properly, more so than other QB's. Wilson is an elite game manager QB. He's never going to orchestrate an offense like Brady or Manning could, but if you give him the right tools he can win a lot of games for you and put up MVP level stats. The problem is, I don't think Wilson understands his flaws as a player. His rebuttal to the Lockett statement about teams switching things up post snap and "us" not diagnosing it is telling.

I think Carroll has also facilitated this huge holes in Wilson's game. I see a player that isn't held accountable, I see a guy that is living in his own world and refuses criticism. The demeanor of some of the players we had on the Seahawks over the years towards Wilson is telling. This is Carroll's fatal flaw as a head coach here. He's refused to hold Wilson accountable, and he's designed simplistic offenses that encourage players to be themselves. The downside is, it has put a huge hindrance on the development of Russell Wilson and has enabled him in the wrong ways.

Now, what should the Seahawks do? It's tough to tell. The relationship between Wilson and Carroll seems to be toxic in many ways. There is a great disconnect here. Can they repair it? I don't know. If they don't repair the relationship Wilson is going to fade away into obscurity. His play has been all over the place even before the injury. Teams with the right personnel have been able to make him largely ineffective. He's slowing down and he doesn't seem to be able to recognize that yet. Whether Wilson recovers will depend on whether or not he's able to dig down into himself and self-reflect. Players such as Steve Young, Rodgers, Tarkenton, and Cunningham were able to adapt once they starting losing some of their athleticism. Others, such as Donavon McNabb faded into obscurity.

If Carroll stays, I'm not sure if Wilson will ever be able to rise above himself. His struggles have been going on for far longer than his friends death, and injury. I'm not sure what the answer is. I know finding a QB is EXTREMELY hard, but I'm also aware that sometimes you have to know when to cut bait. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

ukeface:

Hey, look, a completely worthless reply to a well thought out post.

You must be very proud.

Your reply reminds me of a Russell Wilson throw on third down. It was never really goin' anywhere to begin with.

Pot kettle dude. To you it was well thought out. To me is was garbage.

Team Russ expected more from you, a puke face isn't enough to rebut a lengthy defamation. Step up you game, the team is disappointed.

 

[John63]

ukeface:

Hey, look, a completely worthless reply to a well thought out post.

You must be very proud.

Your reply reminds me of a Russell Wilson throw on third down. It was never really goin' anywhere to begin with.

Pot kettle dude. To you it was well thought out. To me is was garbage.

Team Russ expected more from you, a puke face isn't enough to rebut a lengthy defamation. Step up you game, the team is disappointed.

The puke face is all that post deserved. Tell team Qhawk hello

 

[keasley45]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

Problem is his best games did not involve a run game. He has proven he can people like Salk and others are using this year as an excuse forgetting the injuries and ignoring all the other issues this team has most brought about by PC.

It is interesting how some forget in 2015 Wilson had his best season as. QB and was our 2nd leading rusher. With no 1k rusher. Or how in 2017.he accounted for over 80% of our yards and all but 1 td. He does not need a run game but like all great QBs a run game helps alot.

No one debates whether or not he can be a hero. But the problem with Russ is similar to the one the Ravens have right now in that they have a QB who's game is 70% improvisation. No one questions whether Lamar is great. He's an all world talent and MVP winner. The gift isnthat he has the ability to be the entire offense, the problem is that ... he makes it such that the entire offense is based on him and his natural ability. And so how he and his natural abilities go, so goes the team.

And similar to Wilson, early in games, the Ravens offense has looked like garbage, often being down by several scores. Then, when Lamar is no longer working within the system to get the ball to the guys the play is designed to hit, he does Lamar, runs around making spectacular plays, and looks like a hero.

The difference in Baltimore is that even before Huntley came in to relieve Lamar, Baltimore fans were tiring of the feast or famine offense and questioning why it only worked in improv mode. They were tired of wrs running wide open, and Lamar running around when he didnt have to had he just got rid of the ball. And now that they've seen Huntley now for a few weeks make the offense look legit, whistle to whistle, albeit without the Lamar heroics and with some growing pains, there's a growing question as to who is best suited to be the guy moving forward. It will likely still be Lamar, but it's been made pretty clear the benefit, and challenge of working with a one man show at qb who has all world talent but like Russ, struggles with some of the basic xs and os stuff that allow defenses to key in and stop their entire scheme... until the beast is unleashed.

They've realized that basic things like scripting an offensive game plan is difficult when you don't have a basis for success to work from...in other words an OC can't assess what's working and what's not because the plays aren't being executed. In that case, you could be winning 21 to zero and the scheme be flawed, but the qb covered for it. Or be down 21 to zero and not need to change your calls, but instead, just need the qb to execute. When that happens you no longer have an identity, which for all of Russ's ability is where we are now. And it's not 2015 or even 2017 anymore. He can't do what he once could.

 

[John63]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

Problem is his best games did not involve a run game. He has proven he can people like Salk and others are using this year as an excuse forgetting the injuries and ignoring all the other issues this team has most brought about by PC.

It is interesting how some forget in 2015 Wilson had his best season as. QB and was our 2nd leading rusher. With no 1k rusher. Or how in 2017.he accounted for over 80% of our yards and all but 1 td. He does not need a run game but like all great QBs a run game helps alot.

No one debates whether or not he can be a hero. But the problem with Russ is similar to the one the Ravens have right now in that they have a QB who's game is 70% improvisation. No one questions whether Lamar is great. He's an all world talent and MVP winner. The gift isnthat he has the ability to be the entire offense, the problem is that ... he makes it such that the entire offense is based on him and his natural ability. And so how he and his natural abilities go, so goes the team.

And similar to Wilson, early in games, the Ravens offense has looked like garbage, often being down by several scores. Then, when Lamar is no longer working within the system to get the ball to the guys the play is designed to hit, he does Lamar, runs around making spectacular plays, and looks like a hero.

The difference in Baltimore is that even before Huntley came in to relieve Lamar, Baltimore fans were tiring of the feast or famine offense and questioning why it only worked in improv mode. They were tired of wrs running wide open, and Lamar running around when he didnt have to had he just got rid of the ball. And now that they've seen Huntley now for a few weeks make the offense look legit, whistle to whistle, albeit without the Lamar heroics and with some growing pains, there's a growing question as to who is best suited to be the guy moving forward. It will likely still be Lamar, but it's been made pretty clear the benefit, and challenge of working with a one man show at qb who has all world talent but like Russ, struggles with some of the basic xs and os stuff that allow defenses to key in and stop their entire scheme... until the beast is unleashed.

They've realized that basic things like scripting an offensive game plan is difficult when you don't have a basis for success to work from...in other words an OC can't assess what's working and what's not because the plays aren't being executed. In that case, you could be winning 21 to zero and the scheme be flawed, but the qb covered for it. Or be down 21 to zero and not need to change your calls, but instead, just need the qb to execute. When that happens you no longer have an identity, which for all of Russ's ability is where we are now. And it's not 2015 or even 2017 anymore. He can't do what he once could.

Nor can an OC game plan for HC sticking his nose in it and changing things. Fyi first 4 games of last year and Prior to his injury this year Wilson wad playing great with limited to know run game and again all great QBs benefit from a run game. Problem is when things are working but not the way PC wants he changes it and that is the problem.

 

[keasley45]

And to say that the guy doesn't need a run game??

It is literally the only gear we have to switch to when teams are capable of keeping him in the pocket and taking away his mid to deep outside ball. He doesn't run anymore, whether because of physical decline, or lack of desire because he wants to be seen less as a Lamar and more like Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers.

 

[keasley45]

I think Mike Salk summed it up really well in a tweet following the Lions game when he said,

'I don't know if Russ will play in front of these fans again, but if he doesn't, it will be because of his unwillingness to accept that he plays best in a system like the one we saw today. A run game with a qb who manages the game, protects the ball, and is very efficient.'

That's the truth here. And Russ won't do that. Which is why bringing someone in to compete with him won't work. He doesn't want to be pushed. He wants what he wants and will drive that bus to wherever he can find it. The last two years, this past offseason and multiple press conferences up to even the Bears game, prove that.

Problem is his best games did not involve a run game. He has proven he can people like Salk and others are using this year as an excuse forgetting the injuries and ignoring all the other issues this team has most brought about by PC.

It is interesting how some forget in 2015 Wilson had his best season as. QB and was our 2nd leading rusher. With no 1k rusher. Or how in 2017.he accounted for over 80% of our yards and all but 1 td. He does not need a run game but like all great QBs a run game helps alot.

No one debates whether or not he can be a hero. But the problem with Russ is similar to the one the Ravens have right now in that they have a QB who's game is 70% improvisation. No one questions whether Lamar is great. He's an all world talent and MVP winner. The gift isnthat he has the ability to be the entire offense, the problem is that ... he makes it such that the entire offense is based on him and his natural ability. And so how he and his natural abilities go, so goes the team.

And similar to Wilson, early in games, the Ravens offense has looked like garbage, often being down by several scores. Then, when Lamar is no longer working within the system to get the ball to the guys the play is designed to hit, he does Lamar, runs around making spectacular plays, and looks like a hero.

The difference in Baltimore is that even before Huntley came in to relieve Lamar, Baltimore fans were tiring of the feast or famine offense and questioning why it only worked in improv mode. They were tired of wrs running wide open, and Lamar running around when he didnt have to had he just got rid of the ball. And now that they've seen Huntley now for a few weeks make the offense look legit, whistle to whistle, albeit without the Lamar heroics and with some growing pains, there's a growing question as to who is best suited to be the guy moving forward. It will likely still be Lamar, but it's been made pretty clear the benefit, and challenge of working with a one man show at qb who has all world talent but like Russ, struggles with some of the basic xs and os stuff that allow defenses to key in and stop their entire scheme... until the beast is unleashed.

They've realized that basic things like scripting an offensive game plan is difficult when you don't have a basis for success to work from...in other words an OC can't assess what's working and what's not because the plays aren't being executed. In that case, you could be winning 21 to zero and the scheme be flawed, but the qb covered for it. Or be down 21 to zero and not need to change your calls, but instead, just need the qb to execute. When that happens you no longer have an identity, which for all of Russ's ability is where we are now. And it's not 2015 or even 2017 anymore. He can't do what he once could.

Nor can an OC game plan for HC sticking his nose in it and changing things. Fyi first 4 games of last year and Prior to his injury this year Wilson wad playing great with limited to know run game and again all great QBs benefit from a run game. Problem is when things are working but not the way PC wants he changes it and that is the problem.

Wilson wasn't playing great. He was living off of last years cookbook. Virtually all of his big plays were long balls off of play action. The thing teams turned again to stopping.

Through week 5 or 6 when he was injured, we were already near the bottom of the league in 3rd down passing efficiency and were dead last in sustained drive TOP and near the bottom in plays run per offensive series... which has nothing to do with the defense. The offense was squarely the same as it always was - feast or fammine.

And Pete, tbis year more than ever has guven control to Waldron and Russ and been left to express frustration at how we were performing on offense... an offense that resembled in no way shape or form anything Pete would ask for if he was in control.

When he has played, it's been all Russ from week 1, and the results have been an obvious frustration for PC. Shoot, it's been an obvious frustration for our Wrs who are running open routes and not getting the ball.

This is obvious.

 

[keasley45]

And for context, there are many in the 'Russ is the savior' column who look at Sundays game as some kind of proof that he's back and all can be good again. When you bring up that he played DETROIT, who is near the bottom of the league in most every defensive statistical category, it's dismissed. Yet, when Geno Smith abused the Jacksonville D, throwing the ball all over the field to multiple different receivers in patterns and formations we dont often see, completing a franchise record number of consecutive passes, THAT was dismissed as just feasting on a lesser opponent. Yet Jacksonville ranks significantly better than Detroit on defense.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[Palmegranite]

Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.