Do you REALLY want him gone?

John63

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Palmegranite":rg6989a9 said:
Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.


They know the don't care. As long as Wilson is gone they would take 10 years of crap. I did a survey a few months ago. I asked would you give up the SB we won if it meant getting rid of Wilson. Several said yes.
 

Cyrus12

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keasley45":20u1nfgn said:
And for context, there are many in the 'Russ is the savior' column who look at Sundays game as some kind of proof that he's back and all can be good again. When you bring up that he played DETROIT, who is near the bottom of the league in most every defensive statistical category, it's dismissed. Yet, when Geno Smith abused the Jacksonville D, throwing the ball all over the field to multiple different receivers in patterns and formations we dont often see, completing a franchise record number of consecutive passes, THAT was dismissed as just feasting on a lesser opponent. Yet Jacksonville ranks significantly better than Detroit on defense.

Can't have it both ways.
Nope..Lombardi next year..book it!
 

Sgt. Largent

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Cyrus12":whc7zsl6 said:
keasley45":whc7zsl6 said:
And for context, there are many in the 'Russ is the savior' column who look at Sundays game as some kind of proof that he's back and all can be good again. When you bring up that he played DETROIT, who is near the bottom of the league in most every defensive statistical category, it's dismissed. Yet, when Geno Smith abused the Jacksonville D, throwing the ball all over the field to multiple different receivers in patterns and formations we dont often see, completing a franchise record number of consecutive passes, THAT was dismissed as just feasting on a lesser opponent. Yet Jacksonville ranks significantly better than Detroit on defense.

Can't have it both ways.
Nope..Lombardi next year..book it!


There's glass half full fans, and then there's 6-10 worst team in our own division with only like six players on the entire team that are above average we're winning the SB next year fans.
 

Spin Doctor

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keasley45":15n0fybg said:
And to say that the guy doesn't need a run game??

It is literally the only gear we have to switch to when teams are capable of keeping him in the pocket and taking away his mid to deep outside ball. He doesn't run anymore, whether because of physical decline, or lack of desire because he wants to be seen less as a Lamar and more like Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers.
Wilson is more dependent on a great run game than just about any QB in the NFL. Without a good rushing attack, we've seen that the offense is feast and famine. We've also learned his limitations as a field general type of Quarterback. He is not Rodgers or Brady. They are players that are able to dictate the flow of an offense from the LOS.

The fact that Wilson has not been able to crack the tampa-2 style of defense is very telling. As a passer, if you're going against Tampa 2, you look to attack the seams of the defense. You don't necessarily need a strong running game to beat that defense, you just need to know what you're doing. The tampa 2 and cover-2 style of defenses are meant to take away the deep ball. The trade off is that the short passes up the middle are open and inside seams are exploitable. Wilson approaches this defense by throwing right into the strength of that coverage.

The run game masks the deficiencies that Wilson has in his game. If we keep Wilson this year, i'm all for going full send on the running game. Tell Wilson "I'm sorry bud, but your cooking privileges have been revoked" and bring back the Schottenheimer 2018 style of attack. The Tennessee Titans model is how we make Russell look good again.

If Carroll and Wilson stay I want Carroll to spend the whole offseason upgrading the running game. Bring in a bunch of lineman, sure up the center position, bring in a bunch of running backs via FA and the draft. Maybe even pull out more of the I formation with our big boy, Nick Bellore.
 

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keasley45":2ykm34y9 said:
And for context, there are many in the 'Russ is the savior' column who look at Sundays game as some kind of proof that he's back and all can be good again. When you bring up that he played DETROIT, who is near the bottom of the league in most every defensive statistical category, it's dismissed. Yet, when Geno Smith abused the Jacksonville D, throwing the ball all over the field to multiple different receivers in patterns and formations we dont often see, completing a franchise record number of consecutive passes, THAT was dismissed as just feasting on a lesser opponent. Yet Jacksonville ranks significantly better than Detroit on defense.

Can't have it both ways.

Geno got Russ's attention, resulting in Geno never seen the field again this season.
 

John63

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Spin Doctor":30cevmsb said:
keasley45":30cevmsb said:
And to say that the guy doesn't need a run game??

It is literally the only gear we have to switch to when teams are capable of keeping him in the pocket and taking away his mid to deep outside ball. He doesn't run anymore, whether because of physical decline, or lack of desire because he wants to be seen less as a Lamar and more like Mahomes, Brady and Rodgers.
Wilson is more dependent on a great run game than just about any QB in the NFL. Without a good rushing attack, we've seen that the offense is feast and famine. We've also learned his limitations as a field general type of Quarterback. He is not Rodgers or Brady. They are players that are able to dictate the flow of an offense from the LOS.

The fact that Wilson has not been able to crack the tampa-2 style of defense is very telling. As a passer, if you're going against Tampa 2, you look to attack the seams of the defense. You don't necessarily need a strong running game to beat that defense, you just need to know what you're doing. The tampa 2 and cover-2 style of defenses are meant to take away the deep ball. The trade off is that the short passes up the middle are open and inside seams are exploitable. Wilson approaches this defense by throwing right into the strength of that coverage.

The run game masks the deficiencies that Wilson has in his game. If we keep Wilson this year, i'm all for going full send on the running game. Tell Wilson "I'm sorry bud, but your cooking privileges have been revoked" and bring back the Schottenheimer 2018 style of attack. The Tennessee Titans model is how we make Russell look good again.

If Carroll and Wilson stay I want Carroll to spend the whole offseason upgrading the running game. Bring in a bunch of lineman, sure up the center position, bring in a bunch of running backs via FA and the draft. Maybe even pull out more of the I formation with our big boy, Nick Bellore.

Again look back I 2015 and 2017 and at times this year and last. He is no more or less dependant than any qb is PCs system would be. The problem is the system PC wants to use needs a good run game. It also needs a top QB.
 

justafan

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Sgt. Largent":1uq06d7v said:
Cyrus12":1uq06d7v said:
keasley45":1uq06d7v said:
And for context, there are many in the 'Russ is the savior' column who look at Sundays game as some kind of proof that he's back and all can be good again. When you bring up that he played DETROIT, who is near the bottom of the league in most every defensive statistical category, it's dismissed. Yet, when Geno Smith abused the Jacksonville D, throwing the ball all over the field to multiple different receivers in patterns and formations we dont often see, completing a franchise record number of consecutive passes, THAT was dismissed as just feasting on a lesser opponent. Yet Jacksonville ranks significantly better than Detroit on defense.

Can't have it both ways.
Nope..Lombardi next year..book it!


There's glass half full fans, and then there's 6-10 worst team in our own division with only like six players on the entire team that are above average we're winning the SB next year fans.


Im a half full guy. I have to be, its the only way I can enjoy the game.
I used to love baseball and the Mariners. The ownership sucks and always will suck. I havent watched a baseball game in over 15 years and I dont see me watching one anytime soon.

We do lack talent but what bothers me the most is where its at. On the Rams D the best players and cap money are at DTs,CB and pass rush LB. Positions that make the highest impact in games. Its not at safety or safeties if we sign Diggs.

When the season ends I look at the 20 or 30 FAs they have to decide on and I hold out the hope. I look at the Cap,look at the draft hopefuls and look at who we can sign. The O will be good enough to win some games if people stay healthy. Ya the D will probably still lack playmakers, OL wont be as good as I want but thats life.

Its like going to AZ to Mariners spring training except I dont have to watch some .200 batter dig at his nuts at batting practice and knowing in the back of my mind the ownership screwed me out of my love of baseball and this Dbag isnt Griffey, Bones, Martinez or Arod, he isnt anywhere friggin close!! He will probably be back in AA by June.
 

keasley45

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Palmegranite":cgd3qtse said:
Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.

Tell me, in what way does the quality of that front office resemble anything close to what we run. Or how the Browns success even closely resembles our own?

So somehow because a completely asinine organization who hasn't won anything in decades or even consistently been able to compete, is some sign of where we are headed?

The comparison makes zero sense.

This is the same organization that put together a superbowl winning team from scratch in 3 years (and already did it with a qb that was by default, a game manager in their system) and has been one of the winningest in the league while they've been at it. Yet somehow because we might decide to part ways with Wilson, we won't be able to find are head from our A hole?

Yeah. Ok. Makes sense.
 

keasley45

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And, if you want to compare winning franchises with recent superbowl histories, overwhelmingly winning records and similar situations in that they had a franchise qb that they parted with that forced a 'rebuild', why not look at the Patriots. I believe they are the only team that has won more than us since Pete has been HC - this season might have changed that. They let the greatest QB of all time go and are right back in the thick of things after one down year.

And you know how they did it? With a solid running game and defense that allows them to bring their young, game manager qb along slowly.

They won a game against the Bills this year where they threw the ball three times the entire game.

Why not use them as a comparison?

And if our winning history says the seahawks are about running and defense, then why the hell not get back to that and do away with all the BS hysteria about what happens if Russ isnt allowed to cook here anymore?

We could once again become the armpit of the league.

Or, more likely, given our history, put the team back to where it wants to be and build back just as strong as we were before.

Seems like soooo much of the Pete hate is tied to this dumb, binary, Pete V Russ narrative. Pete is a phenomenal coach who, God willing, will win here again. Russ is a phenomenal player who still likely has winning ball in him somewhere where he can dictate his own terms of play. Just so happens that might not be here.
 

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keasley45":1g9sxrgi said:
Palmegranite":1g9sxrgi said:
Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.

Tell me, in what way does the quality of that front office resemble anything close to what we run. Or how the Browns success even closely resembles our own?

So somehow because a completely asinine organization who hasn't won anything in decades or even consistently been able to compete, is some sign of where we are headed?

The comparison makes zero sense.

This is the same organization that put together a superbowl winning team from scratch in 3 years (and already did it with a qb that was by default, a game manager in their system) and has been one of the winningest in the league while they've been at it. Yet somehow because we might decide to part ways with Wilson, we won't be able to find are head from our A hole?

Yeah. Ok. Makes sense.
Rrrrright.....it's all about the quality front office.

I guess that's why Matt Flynn had such a long, storied carreer with the Seahawks. Just plug in any QB. ....delusional response.
 

keasley45

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Palmegranite":1oboaw81 said:
keasley45":1oboaw81 said:
Palmegranite":1oboaw81 said:
Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.

Tell me, in what way does the quality of that front office resemble anything close to what we run. Or how the Browns success even closely resembles our own?

So somehow because a completely asinine organization who hasn't won anything in decades or even consistently been able to compete, is some sign of where we are headed?

The comparison makes zero sense.

This is the same organization that put together a superbowl winning team from scratch in 3 years (and already did it with a qb that was by default, a game manager in their system) and has been one of the winningest in the league while they've been at it. Yet somehow because we might decide to part ways with Wilson, we won't be able to find are head from our A hole?

Yeah. Ok. Makes sense.
Rrrrright.....it's all about the quality front office.

I guess that's why Matt Flynn had such a long, storied carreer with the Seahawks. Just plug in any QB. ....delusional response.

So i guess the winning around here just miraculously happened despite their ineptitude.

LMAO

Tell me how many front offices would have had the wisdom and balls to sign Might Flynn and then bench him when the other guy THAT THEY SIGNED WHEN NO ONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE WOULD, outplayed him. You act as though Wilson waltzed in on a chariot to save the team. This front office had the smarts to pick him AND start him AND build a team around him that won a championship and what should have been another had we stuck to our identity and not let Russ fire up the George Forman grill on the last play at the goal line.
 

xray

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If he can't pull his head from his wife's azz , then yes , go the phuk away Russ .
 

xray

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xray":3imsy0m8 said:
If he can't pull his head from his wife's azz , then yes , go the phuk away Russ .

Really fine ' cat ' matters too .
 

chris98251

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Don Shula was a defensive coach, went to multiple Super Bowls then got Dan Marino and seen one, they tried to tailor the team around Dan, they had a fantastic offense but never got back to the Super Bowl after that one year with Dan, they never had the running game effective like before, the defense they had was never intimidating like the No Name defense. Dan had phenomenal passing numbers for the years after, but no Super Bowl ring.

I see us very much as those post Greise teams with the Dolphins, Wilson played very much like a Bob Greise early on, now he wants to play like a Dan Marino and the cost is almost all other aspects of the team and game. Yes, Salary is a big part, but being able to say the QB is not the primary focus the teams balance in all aspects is a large part of the problem.
 

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People keep touting the 2015 Russ, & how he kicked azz WITHOUT having Lynch to help keep Defenses honest, and YES, he & Baldwin did pick up the slack without having a superior Running attack to round out the Offense, come playoffs though? NOT having any kind of run game put a hell of a damper on that season.
The game last Sunday was pretty much a "Pete Ball" type game, it reminded me A LOT of when Russ had the Beast side-kick tearing the hell out of the Defenses.
Now I know Penny ain't no Lynch, but he did help Wilson to shred the Lions Defense, and showed what a decent RB can do for ya.
I know, I know, it was the lowly Lions, but we are the 6 & 10 Seahawks, that up until this game, didn't have a slamming Run game to help Wilson put this game away.
Whether people want to admit it or not, it IS a LOT easier for Wilson to get his numbers up, if he has a decent to good "Pete Ball" Run game HELPING.
More Facets?, More DANGERUSS. :irishdrinkers:
 

hawks85

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I couldn't care less. Wilson isn't a good fit for the west coast offense scheme. His backyard swing for fences style is making the offense look bad. I don't give a shit if you agree or disagree, it's the facts. Anyone who understands the game knows this. I may not have NFL level experience but I did play in HS and college and I understand the game. The problems on offense isn't coaching it isn't Waldron it's Wilson and his inability to take orchestrate the west coast offense. For those who still don't understand Wilson needs to adjust his game style or it doesn't matter who's the coach because this team will be in the same boat next year.
 

John63

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keasley45":1e51a8lz said:
Palmegranite":1e51a8lz said:
keasley45":1e51a8lz said:
Palmegranite":1e51a8lz said:
Did any one of you even watch last night's game?

Baker Mayfield, first round overall pick by the Browns, a few years under his belt.....shudder....

This is a very likely post-RW future/scenario for the Seahawks.

For those "let's trade him for draft pick" types, be mindful of what you're asking for and your expectations for the next decade. Just saying.

Tell me, in what way does the quality of that front office resemble anything close to what we run. Or how the Browns success even closely resembles our own?

So somehow because a completely asinine organization who hasn't won anything in decades or even consistently been able to compete, is some sign of where we are headed?

The comparison makes zero sense.

This is the same organization that put together a superbowl winning team from scratch in 3 years (and already did it with a qb that was by default, a game manager in their system) and has been one of the winningest in the league while they've been at it. Yet somehow because we might decide to part ways with Wilson, we won't be able to find are head from our A hole?

Yeah. Ok. Makes sense.
Rrrrright.....it's all about the quality front office.

I guess that's why Matt Flynn had such a long, storied carreer with the Seahawks. Just plug in any QB. ....delusional response.

So i guess the winning around here just miraculously happened despite their ineptitude.

LMAO

Tell me how many front offices would have had the wisdom and balls to sign Might Flynn and then bench him when the other guy THAT THEY SIGNED WHEN NO ONE ELSE IN THE LEAGUE WOULD, outplayed him. You act as though Wilson waltzed in on a chariot to save the team. This front office had the smarts to pick him AND start him AND build a team around him that won a championship and what should have been another had we stuck to our identity and not let Russ fire up the George Forman grill on the last play at the goal line.


I can name several starting with NE. As to rest the same front office who got us a safety for multiple 1st rounders who can't stay healthy. The reality is PC had a huge advantage coming to Seattle from college. He knew the college ayers. He does not now and it shows as a whole our death g and FA surging has been crap. As to the SB we should have been to 3. 2012 our vaunted defense gives.up the lead in the last 20 seconds of the game. The same FO who went all conservative on offense and defense only to see our supposed great defense give up a 2 score lead in 9 minutes. And then add tomit calling a must throw timing pattern tomorrow #5 wr instead of running it or rolling the QB out.
 

Jville

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Spin Doctor":yii9nrgd said:
Both yes and no. I have complicated feelings about Russell Wilson. One thing we have to realize is that if we have to get rid of Wilson, finding a suitable replacement is going to be EXTREMELY hard. No matter what you feel about the player, that is one fact that you have to accept. It could be many years before we find a QB that is even serviceable.

On the other hand, I think we need to come to terms with a few things. The first is the lack of control that Pete, Schneider, or even a new coach will have over the situation. Russell Wilson has complete control over his own destiny. His contract stipulates that there is a no-trade clause. This means if he were to be traded, it was because he willed it to be so.

The second thing I think we're going to see is another off-season where Wilson potentially holds the franchise hostage. In Wilson's recent statements they are dripping with the type of doublespeak one would typically associate from Washington DC. Statements such as: “I know for me personally, I hope it's not my last game. But at the same time, I know it won't be my last game in the NFL." coming from a guy that has a no-trade clause in his contract strikes me as being extremely peculiar. In addition to that, his contract is such that cutting him is not really feasible. Wilson knows full well what he is doing. He's exerting power over the franchise and the front office with statements like this. At the very least, I suspect he's trying to get more involved in the player acquisition aspect, at the worst he's trying to force himself out.

If he were to force himself out, I wouldn't know what to think. On one hand, Wilson is, and always has been streaky as a player. His stats didn't always tell the story of whole halves of ineffectiveness, missed reads, 20 yard sacks, inability for the team to move balls for large swaths of seasons. After analyzing Wilson's playing some more, many of these failings are on Wilson himself. He plays an extremely limited game. He doesn't like to go to the middle, his timing and placement has always been wonky on the short passes. He also has always been over-indulgent when it comes to going for the big play. I'd contend that he has never been as good as his statistics say. That being said, flaws aside he's still been a better QB than most of the NFL has had floating anywhere from top 10 to top 3 over the years.

His improvisational and ability to create from thin air and move around were magical. He also had a moxie about him in the fourth quarter. His eyes would go dead and he would come back from impossible deficits. He's great in so many ways but in others he hasn't developed at all. His fundamentals in many respects are all over the place. His pocket presence is REALLY bad, more so that now his mobility isn't what it used to be. His ball placement on short, to short-intermediate routes is very bad. His ability to quickly diagnose things pre-snap has also been brought into question. Teams have been throwing disguised looks at him that he's struggled to diagnose ever since the NYG game and the infamous Cardinal game last season.

Quite frankly, our QB is an enigma and aberrations in many senses. I don't think I've ever seen a QB quite like Russell in the NFL. I think in Russ's case he needs an above average run game to function properly, more so than other QB's. Wilson is an elite game manager QB. He's never going to orchestrate an offense like Brady or Manning could, but if you give him the right tools he can win a lot of games for you and put up MVP level stats. The problem is, I don't think Wilson understands his flaws as a player. His rebuttal to the Lockett statement about teams switching things up post snap and "us" not diagnosing it is telling.

I think Carroll has also facilitated this huge holes in Wilson's game. I see a player that isn't held accountable, I see a guy that is living in his own world and refuses criticism. The demeanor of some of the players we had on the Seahawks over the years towards Wilson is telling. This is Carroll's fatal flaw as a head coach here. He's refused to hold Wilson accountable, and he's designed simplistic offenses that encourage players to be themselves. The downside is, it has put a huge hindrance on the development of Russell Wilson and has enabled him in the wrong ways.

Now, what should the Seahawks do? It's tough to tell. The relationship between Wilson and Carroll seems to be toxic in many ways. There is a great disconnect here. Can they repair it? I don't know. If they don't repair the relationship Wilson is going to fade away into obscurity. His play has been all over the place even before the injury. Teams with the right personnel have been able to make him largely ineffective. He's slowing down and he doesn't seem to be able to recognize that yet. Whether Wilson recovers will depend on whether or not he's able to dig down into himself and self-reflect. Players such as Steve Young, Rodgers, Tarkenton, and Cunningham were able to adapt once they starting losing some of their athleticism. Others, such as Donavon McNabb faded into obscurity.

If Carroll stays, I'm not sure if Wilson will ever be able to rise above himself. His struggles have been going on for far longer than his friends death, and injury. I'm not sure what the answer is. I know finding a QB is EXTREMELY hard, but I'm also aware that sometimes you have to know when to cut bait. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue.

Impressive body of thought. I'm glad I came back around to review this thread. I found a lot of your perspectives familiar. Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts in such a clear and readable manner. :2thumbs:
 

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