Excitement around the Waldron offense

[Appyhawk]

I think it's fair to say Russ could benefit by watching Montana's quick hit play style out of the Walsh system. He hasn't been very good at that to this point, which is one reason we have struggled in the third down category. He knows getting rid of it quick doesn't give the long strike time to develop and he is understandably enamored by the successful big strike plays. But when possession after possession is ended without a first down you gotta figure it out or be satisfied with the rut you are in. I don't think Russ is any more satisfied than we are.
I'm very excited at the prospects of picking up the temp, Russ calling plays at the LOS, getting the TEs more involved. I think it will end up providing just as much long ball fun as we have seen in the past, with better results in ball control.

 

[John63]

ahh if you're giving PC the credit for taking the TOs away then he has to have made a chance of some kind. FYI the quick stuff over the middle was removed as an example of a change made

Do you have any sort of link or film study that supports that viewpoint? I don't think passing over the middle of the field was categorically outlawed. That's absurd.

Of course there is no evidence to back up this claim. Think it was pulled out of thin air, or from you-know-where. :lol:

Yes pulled the same as PC is why the TOs went down. All you need to do is look at the game film but I know you will not easier to just say it is not so than actually look and realize it is so. Its such a blissful way to go.

 

[John63]

I think it's fair to say Russ could benefit by watching Montana's quick hit play style out of the Walsh system. He hasn't been very good at that to this point, which is one reason we have struggled in the third down category. He knows getting rid of it quick doesn't give the long strike time to develop and he is understandably enamored by the successful big strike plays. But when possession after possession is ended without a first down you gotta figure it out or be satisfied with the rut you are in. I don't think Russ is any more satisfied than we are.
I'm very excited at the prospects of picking up the temp, Russ calling plays at the LOS, getting the TEs more involved. I think it will end up providing just as much long ball fun as we have seen in the past, with better results in ball control.

problem is a lot of the big strike is PC he has said many times he wants to run and throw long. Go back to 2015 that is what we did till Lynch went down, then we went to quick strike and was killing it only to change again when Lynch came back. Hopefully he has learned adn will just stay out of it. we will see.

 

[fenderbender123]

I know I say this a lot, but I really think this is the year we go 19-0.

 

[Jville]

I think it's fair to say Russ could benefit by watching Montana's quick hit play style out of the Walsh system. He hasn't been very good at that to this point, which is one reason we have struggled in the third down category. He knows getting rid of it quick doesn't give the long strike time to develop and he is understandably enamored by the successful big strike plays. But when possession after possession is ended without a first down you gotta figure it out or be satisfied with the rut you are in. I don't think Russ is any more satisfied than we are.
I'm very excited at the prospects of picking up the temp, Russ calling plays at the LOS, getting the TEs more involved. I think it will end up providing just as much long ball fun as we have seen in the past, with better results in ball control.

I think it may take a little while for field personnel to develop the mutual trust and execution for a better ball control offense. However, punter Michael Dickson has been huge in compensating for failed 1st downs in recent years. So news of his 4 year extension was both huge and timely. Great insurance should it take awhile for the new offense to come together and begin to move the chains with persistence. I think the the team can afford to be patient, if necessary, with the evolution of this new offense.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Generally I agree with what you're saying. He does need to let the OC do his thing.

I think this narrative may a bit overblown, however, if we're talking about last season. After the 4-game stretch where Russ was a turnover machine, I'm not sure how much they changed the offense at all. They didn't necessarily run the ball more. Or even run it more on first down. So what changed in the ideology?

I did see the turnovers go away, so at least Pete fixed that. They just couldn't adjust to deep coverage, and they became too predictable and one-dimensional.

Shotty couldn't solve for that issue, and Russ didn't really adapt either by taking what the defense was giving him..

So Pete knew a change had to be made. Enter Shane Waldron.

ahh if you're giving PC the credit for taking the TOs away then he has to have made a chance of some kind. FYI the quick stuff over the middle was removed as an example of a change made

Do you have any sort of link or film study that supports that viewpoint? I don't think passing over the middle of the field was categorically outlawed. That's absurd.

Ahh again has been put on this forum alot already go find it, do you have any film it was PC who took away the Tos? FYi look at the first 6 games and see how many quick hitters and throws over the middle and then look at last 10 you will notice the difference.

So basically, no, you do not have anything to back up your claim, other than the "eye test" you said you don't use in your introduction to the forum. Got it.

If you actually watched any tape, you'd see Seattle running mesh and similar concepts frequently. You'd also see the ball being pulled down instead of thrown to the open man frequently on the same plays.

Produce your source, or let it be noted that there isn't one. I'm not researching your own post for you, champ.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Please tell me people don't actually think that they were calling plays like this while simultaneously telling Russell not to throw them. No one can actually think that's how things went down. It's beyond asinine.

"We're gonna send some routes over the middle, but don't throw to them, Russ. That's vewy scawy to think about."
[tweet]https://twitter.com/HossYJuke/status/1348777585698770945[/tweet]

"No, Russ. Don't throw to the wide open tight end here. That's dangerous. It's close to the middle of the field!"
[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328776411344236544[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328781091835162634[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328776411344236544[/tweet]

His processing fell apart last year. Plain, simple, period. Russ wasn't seeing the field at the level that is necessary. That's, at a minimum, half of the reason the offense sputtered down the stretch. This isn't the OL. This isn't his receiving talent. It's a combination of him and his offensive coaching.

There are two roads to take going forward. Build a scary rushing attack to take the pressure off of Russ, or have him MASTER a few looks that they can build out of in the McVay style. Period. Forcing Russ to do a Tom Brady impression is just gonna result in a shittier Russ. I don't care if you build him the great wall of China for an OL, it doesn't fix the issues that were apparent last year.

Russ is amazing at what he's known for. Extending plays, the ability to carry an offense when the game is on the line, and uncorking it deep. Put him in a position to do those things, and achieve the rest via other avenues.

 

[nanomoz]

^Great share, Maelstrom!^ Thank you.

One of Waldron's jobs is certainly to get Russ to be sharper and more decisive with the underneath stuff, and to settle down and be ordered in progressions. Those wide open missed TDs to D.K. were painful. He's got some David Carr syndrome, if those are any indication.

 

[keasley45]

Please tell me people don't actually think that they were calling plays like this while simultaneously telling Russell not to throw them. No one can actually think that's how things went down. It's beyond asinine.

"We're gonna send some routes over the middle, but don't throw to them, Russ. That's vewy scawy to think about."
[tweet]https://twitter.com/HossYJuke/status/1348777585698770945[/tweet]

"No, Russ. Don't throw to the wide open tight end here. That's dangerous. It's close to the middle of the field!"
[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328776411344236544[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328781091835162634[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1328776411344236544[/tweet]

His processing fell apart last year. Plain, simple, period. Russ wasn't seeing the field at the level that is necessary. That's, at a minimum, half of the reason the offense sputtered down the stretch. This isn't the OL. This isn't his receiving talent. It's a combination of him and his offensive coaching.

There are two roads to take going forward. Build a scary rushing attack to take the pressure off of Russ, or have him MASTER a few looks that they can build out of in the McVay style. Period. Forcing Russ to do a Tom Brady impression is just gonna result in a $h!t Russ. I don't care if you build him the great wall of China for an OL, it doesn't fix the issues that were apparent last year.

Russ is amazing at what he's known for. Extending plays, the ability to carry an offense when the game is on the line, and uncorking it deep. Put him in a position to do those things, and achieve the rest via other avenues.

Thank you. I've been posting clips and showing examples like this, only to be told that they don't show anything because we , as layman, don't know who the primary receiver was or don't have the endzone view to see what Russ saw... even though I do via All-22. We lost the Rams game in the playoffs more because we left so many plays on the field that the qb just missed than anything else. We lost the giants game for the same reason.

You can't move the ball effectively and predictably if the correct reads aren't made and the ball doesn't come out and there are literally countless examples like some of those above when the blocking could not be blamed for the failure.

If the qb doesn't process the field, make the pre and post snaps read quickly and get the ball out, this year's offense is going to look a lot like last year's offense. And then invariably, when the HC says that we maybe need to do things a little differently, this place will go ballistic and blame Pete for meddling.

There might just be good reason for Pete to want to dial things back to a less 'complicated' place if he starts to see the same thing he's seen over the last 5 years. And if it happens this year, with all the toys we have on offense, the improved line, and golden child o-coordinator, the reason will be much more obvious.

Dont buy a porsche if you can't keep your camry out of the ditch.

But here's to hoping everyone is going to come back better this year than before and we don't get to that place.

 

[Appyhawk]

Twisted..."I am either cautiously optimistic or pessimistically hopeful on this one."
Earned your username. LOL LOL

 

[chris98251]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

 

[BASF]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

Please post the video evidence of this.

 

[chris98251]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

Please post the video evidence of this.

Please pay attention to press conferences and post game conferences.........

I don't ****** lie.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

Ah, yes. Those patented Pete Carroll plays where players run well-designed routes in the middle of the field and Russ isn't allowed to throw the ball.

Pete's preference for not relying heavily on passing over the middle would be more likely to manifest in play calling. To think that Pete's telling his quarterback not to throw to open routes that his own offensive coordinator is calling is a bullshit notion, especially to those who whine ad nauseum about the god-awful "meddling" shit.

The only plausible explanation is the right one - they were drawing stuff up underneath/over the middle that got open frequently, and Russ either couldn't see it or didn't trust it. Schotty wanted to continue high-volume passing without demonstrating an ability to actually coach Russ to run his calls as designed, and that's why he's gone.

Waldron won't last either if he can't get Russ to adapt... unless he crafts an excellent rushing attack that can keep the chains moving regardless.

 

[keasley45]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

Please post the video evidence of this.

Please pay attention to press conferences and post game conferences.........

I don't f*** lie.

I recall a few press conferences last year and after the season ended where Pete said explicitly that the QB needs to take what's there and stop pushing the ball unnecessarily. I dont recall him saying that the QB needs to take what's there... unless its over the middle because that's territory we will willingly concede.

The Russ love is something to behold. Dude is a awesome QB. AND he has holes in his game. There isnt a single all time great QB in the history of this league that didnt have some deficiency. Why its so difficult to fathom that one of his shortcomings might be quick reads and getting the ball out on time, most of the time, is beyond me. He obviiously needs to improve in this area and his struggles there last year and in years prior have led to sacks and stalled drives. They've also led to miraculous off schedule plays. He has ALSO had to deal with some sub par protection, which has ALSO contributed to his inability to make on time reads. All of the above is true and fact and it all must get better. Russ included.

Russel Wilson is human. He is great. He is not perfect.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Doesn't matter they are open, Pete is worried and has said this that across the middle a tip or a bounce off leads to interceptions, I am not sure how much that effects Wilson looking in the middle but Pete has said it several times over the years.

Please post the video evidence of this.

Please pay attention to press conferences and post game conferences.........

I don't f*** lie.

I recall a few press conferences last year and after the season ended where Pete said explicitly that the QB needs to take what's there and stop pushing the ball unnecessarily. I dont recall him saying that the QB needs to take what's there... unless its over the middle because that's territory we will willingly concede.

The Russ love is something to behold. Dude is a awesome QB. AND he has holes in his game. There isnt a single all time great QB in the history of this league that didnt have some deficiency. Why its so difficult to fathom that one of his shortcomings might be quick reads and getting the ball out on time, most of the time, is beyond me. He obviiously needs to improve in this area and his struggles there last year and in years prior have led to sacks and stalled drives. They've also led to miraculous off schedule plays. He has ALSO had to deal with some sub par protection, which has ALSO contributed to his inability to make on time reads. All of the above is true and fact and it all must get better. Russ included.

Russel Wilson is human. He is great. He is not perfect.

Yep. This. I love Russ, and he is a bona fide franchise quarterback. The epitome of a franchise quarterback. But this is his weakness, and its PLAINLY on display throughout the second half of last season.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Chris isnt wrong on this though. Pete has said he likes the long ball because there is only a small chance of a turnover, and to be honest, if it was picked off, its as good as a punt. Reward outweighs the risk. He has also said to some extent that most turnovers happen on short to mid pass plays in the middle of the field. Yeah, Russ struggles with seeing some of those plays and release time so I feel the only way to help that is a healthy dose of rollouts and I hope Waldron does just that.

 

[keasley45]

Chris isnt wrong on this though. Pete has said he likes the long ball because there is only a small chance of a turnover, and to be honest, if it was picked off, its as good as a punt. Reward outweighs the risk. He has also said to some extent that most turnovers happen on short to mid pass plays in the middle of the field. Yeah, Russ struggles with seeing some of those plays and release time so I feel the only way to help that is a healthy dose of rollouts and I hope Waldron does just that.

True, but there's a difference between talking philosophical belief in the context of how one sees the game of football and literal strategy in executing a gameplan, week in and week out. Pete Carroll says its risky because statistics say its risky. Pete Carroll has also said he doesnt like blitzing for the same reason- Dont get to the QB and you expose your back end. But we call blitzes in situations where its deemed to have a higher probability of working. Just like we've called pass plays over the middle.

The D coordinator calls a blitz, contrary to Pete's belief that statistically blitzes are risky and expose the back end, and the blitz is executed.

The O-coordinator calls a pass play that gets DK or Lockett open over the middle, contrary to Pete's belief that statistically, passes over the middle are risky, and the play isnt executed because the QB chooses not to go there in favor of extending the play and hitting a more obvious read.

And if you want to make the argument that early in Pete's tenure, when we had a running game and a defense that allowed us to skew more to a gameplan that afforded us the ability to avoid risk areas on O and D, I'd agree. But for the last 3 years at least, we havent had a reliable running game nor a reliable four man rush, and on both offense and defense the playcalling has shown a tendency to incorporate a more aggreessive appoach. On D, one that incorporates blizing at a higher rate (statistacally proven) and on O, a tendency to pass more overall (statistically proven), on early downs and if you study tape at all, incorporate plays that are designed to go over the middle.

Its just silly to believe that even though its historical fact that we are throwing more than we ever have, that somehow the Hawks o coordinator has managed to dial up all those additional pass plays... And all of them still manage to avoid the middle of the field.

i dont thing that you would find many coaches that would disagree with the what Carroll has said about passes over the middle. Its a basic principle. But the tape shows week in and week out that there are plays called speciically to work the middle and on so many occassions the only reason the ball doesnt go there is because the QB chooses not to.