Maybe Pete Did Learn

[jammerhawk]

I can't believe that some here are making a negative out of what many of you have been kvetching about.

Perhaps it's a belief that some how PC is a magic man and has absolute knowledge and therefore control of every part of the team and thus is at fault for any negative direction no matter what it may be i.e.: 'the super coach theory' which belittles and derogates from the activity of any of the other coaches on the team.

Pete is a defensive coach, and doesn't do more than suggest different plays. He's not responsible for the O except for a philosophical approach and he likes the team to run. Did he learn? Probably more than annoys us here will ever know, but then agin he knows more about football than any of us will ever know. He accepts the responsibility as he knows the buck stops with him, and it was clear that Schotty didn't have the ability to adjust and his gameplans had become more predictable than not. In the Rams game the chunk plays only came through broken plays and not by any adjustment or called play.

I've advocated the team ridding itself of Schotty many times and thankfully it's done. maybe the new guy will know how to design schemes better to run , and maybe he'll be better than Wilson calling his own plays.

I think this is a positive move which responds to the mediocrity served up in the last half of the season from the OC.

 

[chris98251]

I can't believe that some here are making a negative out of what many of you have been kvetching about.

Perhaps it's a belief that some how PC is a magic man and has absolute knowledge and therefore control of every part of the team and thus is at fault for any negative direction no matter what it may be i.e.: 'the super coach theory' which belittles and derogates from the activity of any of the other coaches on the team.

Pete is a defensive coach, and doesn't do more than suggest different plays. He's not responsible for the O except for a philosophical approach and he likes the team to run. Did he learn? Probably more than annoys us here will ever know, but then agin he knows more about football than any of us will ever know. He accepts the responsibility as he knows the buck stops with him, and it was clear that Schotty didn't have the ability to adjust and his gameplans had become more predictable than not. In the Rams game the chunk plays only came through broken plays and not by any adjustment or called play.

I've advocated the team ridding itself of Schotty many times and thankfully it's done. maybe the new guy will know how to design schemes better to run , and maybe he'll be better than Wilson calling his own plays.

I think this is a positive move which responds to the mediocrity served up in the last half of the season from the OC.

Perfect PC answer, results and former players say different.

Glossing this over won't fly. Especially when Pets own mouth also states different facts.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Pete Carroll refuses to hold himself accountable, that is the main issue at hand. He adheres to a style of football that quite frankly isn't viable anymore. In his words, he thinks the only way to beat the two deep is a run game. That is just one way to beat it, but you can also do that through the passing game. You beat the two deep through short passes, and passes up the seam with the TE or slot receiver. How many times have teams dink and dunked their way, or used YAC to completely destroy our defense when we used that scheme? The answer is a lot.

We've beaten several teams this year through the short passing game, and dinking and dunking. Against Atlanta the offense looked like something Holmgren would have drawn up. The problem wasn't Schottenheimer, earlier this season he dialed up dynamic offenses, the main problem is Pete. He's looking at the game through an extremely reductionist viewpoint, especially in terms of the offense. The run game is just one tool to beat that coverage, he failed to see the other tools at his disposal and has quite frankly admitted it in press conferences.

Why force the short passing game though? It just doesn't fit. Russell doesn't take the short stuff. As much as I love Russ, we need to acknowledge his weaknesses - he holds the ball and looks for the deep shot, and consistently looks off his short options that usually are open on frequently-called techniques like mesh. We've seen it time and time again that he holds the ball and misses the short stuff, so why not provide the run support to make his job easier and let him focus on his strengths? We've seen him have massive success with it in the past, with no meltdowns like 2020.

Teams are having massive success with rushing attacks that fulfill the same role as a short passing attack - reliable yardage to keep the chains moving and sustain drives. Avoiding getting behind schedule with incompletions and setting up hard third downs. Indirectly helping your defense by keeping them off the dang field.

Schottenheimer did facilitate a passing attack and philosophy shift that worked early on, but teams adjusted and they absolutely befuddled Russ. Which is the easier route to take - trying to develop a better rushing game that rushes more often for similarly efficient yardage, or trying to change Russell as he is quickly approaching the 10 year mark?

We always talk about adjusting the scheme to the quarterback. Well... this is that, and as much as we'd love for the Let Russ Cook Madden-attack to work for a full season, it's easy to shut down without the ability to make teams pay for parking their safeties up high.

They aren't "fulfilling the same role" as short passes. Teams like the Bills, Rams, Titans Browns, Bucs use the run as a supplementary piece. They use short passes to spread out the field as well, and decrease traffic up the middle, this is especially prevalent in the Rams offense. Yes, they can run but they also use the pass to set up the running game.

 

[jammerhawk]

Learned what? Lol. Pete has no interest in anyone that will challenge his philosophy. We will never, ever be an air it out offense.

Why is necessary to have an air it out offence? If you look at the numbers from KC's O they gain a lot of yards running the ball. What I want is an O that is hard to defend, physical, and wins. if that O wins running the ball that's great, b/c they keep the D fresh.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Pete Carroll refuses to hold himself accountable, that is the main issue at hand. He adheres to a style of football that quite frankly isn't viable anymore. In his words, he thinks the only way to beat the two deep is a run game. That is just one way to beat it, but you can also do that through the passing game. You beat the two deep through short passes, and passes up the seam with the TE or slot receiver. How many times have teams dink and dunked their way, or used YAC to completely destroy our defense when we used that scheme? The answer is a lot.

We've beaten several teams this year through the short passing game, and dinking and dunking. Against Atlanta the offense looked like something Holmgren would have drawn up. The problem wasn't Schottenheimer, earlier this season he dialed up dynamic offenses, the main problem is Pete. He's looking at the game through an extremely reductionist viewpoint, especially in terms of the offense. The run game is just one tool to beat that coverage, he failed to see the other tools at his disposal and has quite frankly admitted it in press conferences.

Why force the short passing game though? It just doesn't fit. Russell doesn't take the short stuff. As much as I love Russ, we need to acknowledge his weaknesses - he holds the ball and looks for the deep shot, and consistently looks off his short options that usually are open on frequently-called techniques like mesh. We've seen it time and time again that he holds the ball and misses the short stuff, so why not provide the run support to make his job easier and let him focus on his strengths? We've seen him have massive success with it in the past, with no meltdowns like 2020.

Teams are having massive success with rushing attacks that fulfill the same role as a short passing attack - reliable yardage to keep the chains moving and sustain drives. Avoiding getting behind schedule with incompletions and setting up hard third downs. Indirectly helping your defense by keeping them off the dang field.

Schottenheimer did facilitate a passing attack and philosophy shift that worked early on, but teams adjusted and they absolutely befuddled Russ. Which is the easier route to take - trying to develop a better rushing game that rushes more often for similarly efficient yardage, or trying to change Russell as he is quickly approaching the 10 year mark?

We always talk about adjusting the scheme to the quarterback. Well... this is that, and as much as we'd love for the Let Russ Cook Madden-attack to work for a full season, it's easy to shut down without the ability to make teams pay for parking their safeties up high.

They aren't "fulfilling the same role" as short passes. Teams like the Bills, Rams, Titans Browns, Bucs use the run as a supplementary piece. They use short passes to spread out the field as well, and decrease traffic up the middle, this is especially prevalent in the Rams offense. Yes, they can run but they also use the pass to set up the running game.

Your claim doesn't totally check out with most of the teams you listed, though. The Titans handed it to Henry almost 400 times this season to the tune of 2000 yards. The Browns ran it almost 100 more times than the Seahawks. The Bills have a fairly pedestrian running attack that they don't use very often, and they only pick up 4.2 yards a carry with it - their offense runs through Allen. Tampa is the 3rd pass-happiest team in the league, and they have the best dink-and-dunker to ever dink-and-dunk in Brady... so it makes sense they'd do what he's good at, which is pretty opposite of what Russ is good at. These teams either actually have an adept short passing game, or they run the ball very effectively, like the Titans and the Browns. For those teams, and others like Green Bay, I don't really think we can say that they were running just to open up the pass. They were running more because they were good at it, it was a source of consistent yardage, not a mere supplement. It also took a bunch of pressure off their quarterback... and yes, opened up the pass. As for the Rams, yes, they have a pretty unique offense based off of a bunch of lateral movement and play action. They're an outlier, but they too rush more than Seattle did, and they do it effectively. That isn't just to set up the pass, it's because the rushing works.

I'm obviously not saying one is a DIRECT replacement for the other, but again, the short passing game isn't something that comes naturally to Wilson and it isn't something that the personnel is an especially good fit for. There's no reason to force the offense to try to run through it in lieu of focusing on rushing the ball more. They were fairly good at running the ball last year, they just didn't do it a lot. Rushing more probably would've resulted in the offense operating in a more consistent manner than it did down the stretch, and moving the chains more often.

Now, that's not to say that they should abandon up-tempo short passing entirely. Just that it shouldn't be the focus or the identity of the offense. Running the ball more (with the stipulation that they continue to run it effectively, like they did this year) will take pressure off of everyone, especially Russ.

 

[Fade]

An even better way to keep the defense fresh is for them to get their ass off the field on 3rd down. But it would be absolutely correct using the Pete Carroll lens to think a run heavy attack is the only way to achieve this. It's the offenses responsibility to keep the defense fresh. Not only do they have to score at a high rate, they have to be sure and not score too fast, so be sure to not snap the ball until the playclock gets down to 2 seconds.

The Seahawks could easily build a dynamic offense the blends run and pass, gameplans properly, attacks opponents weaknessess, etc. But that guy would take Pete's job. He needs a "Yes man."

They should go into every game looking to get up early on opponents. 14-0. Forcing their opponents to press, and that's when the turnovers come. It snowballs from there.

Pete's offensive philosophy is totally reductive, and has more to do with correlation over causation.

As an example. the Patriots over the years generally led the league in turnovers, even when they had poorly ranked defenses that gave up yards and points. One of the big factors in that was they would jump on teams early and build a big lead. Now that other team is forced to throw to get back into the game and push the ball down the field aggressively. That is where you can get your turnovers consistently, especially against bad opponents. Pete instead plays down to them.

Pete is content with punting, waiting things out, keep the game close, then try to win it in the 4th quarter. No matter the opponent. It is an extremely nonoptimal way to play in the 21st century of football. It does not win Superbowls unless you're one of the greatest defenses of all-time. But when you think about it? Does it really matter what your philosophy on offense is if you have one of the greatest defenses of all-time?

And also too, why do you have to approach the offense as if it were some type of dogmatic religion? Why can't you just look at the film, and attack the opponent properly? Week in, week out. Instead of being a predictable, rigid, simplistic, mess. All for the sake of "muh philosophy."

With recent rule changes it is looking harder and harder to do it that way anyway. Right now it's the teams that scheme up the best. Talent helps of course, but the separator right now in today's NFL is the coaching staffs that can scheme, and gameplan week to week.

The Seahawks are one of the worst teams in the league at gameplanning, bar none. But they have the better QB so they usually win in the regular season. The playoffs come around you're facing the best teams, with the smartest staffs. Meanwhile, Pete continues to roll out the same plan, and is perplexed why it didn't work.

Based on his recent pressers, Pete has learned NOTHING.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

And also too, why do you have to approach the offense as if it were some type of dogmatic religion? Why can't you just look at the film, and attack the opponent properly? Week in, week out. Instead of being a predictable, rigid, simplistic, mess. All for the sake of "muh philosophy."

It's like Pete still has that college football mindset. When at USC all you had to do was just be USC and you'd win. Whatever you were doing just keep doing it because you either had the better overall talent (which at the time USC was oozing with five star recruits) or faced historically inferior teams like Rice College or something.

In college that style works, because you could literally dictate what you want to do because your team was genuinely more talented than the other. You had better athletes. Period.

NFL has never been that way though. Yes you have bad teams, but there were still pro talent and pro level coaching staffs that looked at film every week to prep for the next game. That's what you get the 1-12 team beating an 11-2 team sometimes. Look at the Giants, a team that Seattle should've beaten but they smacked the Hawks around. NFL wins aren't guarantees, but sometimes it feels like Pete still plays like they are and I think he spreads that mentality to his players, which is why you have some admit that they play down to some opponents because they (the Hawks) think they're just better and will automatically win.

 

[Smellyman]

7 years too late.

Going from Bevell to Schotty was never an upgrade.

Bevell/Solari better than Schotty/Solari

 

[HD48]

After Super Bowl 49, Pete held nobody accountable and the locker room fell apart. Hawks just lost to the Rams in a tragic display and the locker room started rumbling again,,,,,,,Schotty fired. Hmmmm

How about showing some accountability on his own part? He's the head coach, he's calling the shots.
He literally came out and blamed the loss on the O-Line. Very poor leadership

 

[hawks85]

Pete Carroll refuses to hold himself accountable, that is the main issue at hand. He adheres to a style of football that quite frankly isn't viable anymore. In his words, he thinks the only way to beat the two deep is a run game. That is just one way to beat it, but you can also do that through the passing game. You beat the two deep through short passes, and passes up the seam with the TE or slot receiver. How many times have teams dink and dunked their way, or used YAC to completely destroy our defense when we used that scheme? The answer is a lot.

We've beaten several teams this year through the short passing game, and dinking and dunking. Against Atlanta the offense looked like something Holmgren would have drawn up. The problem wasn't Schottenheimer, earlier this season he dialed up dynamic offenses, the main problem is Pete. He's looking at the game through an extremely reductionist viewpoint, especially in terms of the offense. The run game is just one tool to beat that coverage, he failed to see the other tools at his disposal and has quite frankly admitted it in press conferences.

BINGO!!! FINALLY someone gets it. I've already said this, but you could have The Greatest Show On Turf Offensive genius Mike Martz as OC and the results would be the same. The problem has ALWAYS been Petey boy. He's a stubborn old man.

 

[ZagHawk]

After Super Bowl 49, Pete held nobody accountable and the locker room fell apart. Hawks just lost to the Rams in a tragic display and the locker room started rumbling again,,,,,,,Schotty fired. Hmmmm

Being optimistic, yes...he should have fired DB as soon as SB 49 ended as a fall guy. So he definitely has taken a better step this time around than force everyone to feel like no accountability and more of the same for another few years. That being said, I still don't know if he's going to make more changes actually gameplanning and within the game moving forward. It's a step in the right direction, but unlike Pete I do not feel optimistic that everything is going to work.



Gameplan - Have my O-line hold Aaron Donald for 4 seconds every play.

Aaron Donald - 2 time DPOY.

O-Line - decent cast of talent, but by no means top 3 or 5 on any stat sheet.

Aaron Donald proceeds to wreck entire gameplan.

Pete (in ever post game-presser) - We prepared a good gameplan going-in, at no point did we see it not working, if we felt that way we would have tried something different. We just didn't execute, and as we expected things to open up a little later in the game it became increasingly more difficult as mistakes cost us...but seriously we also need to tip our hats to the opposing team because they work all week to prepare to defend us as well and things just didn't go our way.

Me - Yeah the gameplan you made that you stupidly thought would work, the game plan that put your QB in position to make more mistakes. The gameplan that after said lack of execution and mistakes forces you into desperation mode that is even more in the favor of the opposing team. Cool.

 

[Seanhawk]

After Super Bowl 49, Pete held nobody accountable and the locker room fell apart. Hawks just lost to the Rams in a tragic display and the locker room started rumbling again,,,,,,,Schotty fired. Hmmmm

Accountability like saying there was no one to blame but himself after the game?

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-decision-astonishing-explanation-perplexing/

 

[TwistedHusky]

Aaron Donald wasn't even in for half the game.

We still lost.

Donald destroying us shouldn't be an excuse because:

1) We know he is good. We are supposed to assume that in our game plans and account for it.

2) He didn't even play a good % of the game.

 

[hawksfansince90]

Who exactly held Pete accountable for SB Int. He should have been fired immediately. Everyone lays the blame on Bevell but Pete is the one who made the decision on the play call. Are we gonna act like Pete didn't have personal grudge with Beast Mode that he was so butt hurt to the point he didn't want Lynch to be hero and SB MVP. Add in the fact NFL had the same butt hurt feelings towards Lynch and opposing team happens to be Pasties with their track record.

Beast Mode/Sherman/Bennett were the only ones who had the nuts to speak up and they were all shown the door, run out of town by 12's and Seattle Media who cast them as Public Enemy #1. Smiling two-faced Pete replaced them and anyone else with "yes men" who wouldn't question him.

 

[hawksfansince90]

Hawks haven't been the same since or ever recovered from SB Int moment. Look on Sherman's face told the story. Since then it has been mediocrity. Homer fans running around like ass hats proclaiming "We won the division". These so-called fans are part of the issue.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Who exactly held Pete accountable for SB Int. He should have been fired immediately. Everyone lays the blame on Bevell but Pete is the one who made the decision on the play call. Are we gonna act like Pete didn't have personal grudge with Beast Mode that he was so butt hurt to the point he didn't want Lynch to be hero and SB MVP. Add in the fact NFL had the same butt hurt feelings towards Lynch and opposing team happens to be Pasties with their track record.

Beast Mode/Sherman/Bennett were the only ones who had the nuts to speak up and they were all shown the door, run out of town by 12's and Seattle Media who cast them as Public Enemy #1. Smiling two-faced Pete replaced them and anyone else with "yes men" who wouldn't question him.

This has to be satirical, right? Pete Carroll should have been fired directly after his second Super Bowl appearance in a row? This can't be a real opinion

 

[keasley45]

Pete Carroll refuses to hold himself accountable, that is the main issue at hand. He adheres to a style of football that quite frankly isn't viable anymore. In his words, he thinks the only way to beat the two deep is a run game. That is just one way to beat it, but you can also do that through the passing game. You beat the two deep through short passes, and passes up the seam with the TE or slot receiver. How many times have teams dink and dunked their way, or used YAC to completely destroy our defense when we used that scheme? The answer is a lot.

We've beaten several teams this year through the short passing game, and dinking and dunking. Against Atlanta the offense looked like something Holmgren would have drawn up. The problem wasn't Schottenheimer, earlier this season he dialed up dynamic offenses, the main problem is Pete. He's looking at the game through an extremely reductionist viewpoint, especially in terms of the offense. The run game is just one tool to beat that coverage, he failed to see the other tools at his disposal and has quite frankly admitted it in press conferences.

Why force the short passing game though? It just doesn't fit. Russell doesn't take the short stuff. As much as I love Russ, we need to acknowledge his weaknesses - he holds the ball and looks for the deep shot, and consistently looks off his short options that usually are open on frequently-called techniques like mesh. We've seen it time and time again that he holds the ball and misses the short stuff, so why not provide the run support to make his job easier and let him focus on his strengths? We've seen him have massive success with it in the past, with no meltdowns like 2020.

Teams are having massive success with rushing attacks that fulfill the same role as a short passing attack - reliable yardage to keep the chains moving and sustain drives. Avoiding getting behind schedule with incompletions and setting up hard third downs. Indirectly helping your defense by keeping them off the dang field.

Schottenheimer did facilitate a passing attack and philosophy shift that worked early on, but teams adjusted and they absolutely befuddled Russ. Which is the easier route to take - trying to develop a better rushing game that rushes more often for similarly efficient yardage, or trying to change Russell as he is quickly approaching the 10 year mark?

We always talk about adjusting the scheme to the quarterback. Well... this is that, and as much as we'd love for the Let Russ Cook Madden-attack to work for a full season, it's easy to shut down without the ability to make teams pay for parking their safeties up high.

Love every part of this take because i think it's right on. Everybody on this board who is pro 'offense' assumes Pete wants to run despite the fact that he has a HOF qb under center who when he goes sandlot at the end of games, shows just how good the team might be. I personally think Pete is advocating for a stronger run game because he knows better than anyone else who Russ is. He, and anybody who has done any reasonable analysis of his game will tell you that Russ is not a methodical qb, and that his short game is flawed. I mean good lord, it's flawed right off the bat because it's been studied to death and is common knowledge that Russ takes some ofnthe deepest drops in football, play in and play out. He needs to set up deep so that he can see the field. But if you're throwing the ball from 8 to 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage, that makes it really hard to run a consistent, quick hit pass game. And if Russ, because of his height can't consistently hit a cross section of other short or medium routes simply because he cant see them, it would seem the next best alternative to going out and getting somebody who can, is adapt an offensive strategy that masks your QBs weaknesses and let him do what he does best, throw the long ball... and avoid the sacks that come with the compromised short game .

Why is that sooooo crazy? Bevells playcalls outside of Seattle look nothing like what he called here. I don't think that's because Pete MADE him call the plays he wanted. I'm sure as he's the coach that he expressed a desire to limit risk, or trend to a certain playcall here or there, but Hes a defensive coach and im pretty sure that if the offense is putting up points, controlling the clock, and not turning it over, Russ and the OC woukd be free to do whatever they wanted. Maybe the reality of the situation is that Russ is what's making thr playcaller's job difficult.

What if all the 'run more' talk from Pete that sounds so crazy to most isn't the ramblings of a coach past his time, but as has been his strength and talent in building men and teams all along, Pete finding a way to take the best of what a person brings to the table and helping him to fill in those parts of his game that are lacking. Thats what great leadership is about. Putting people in a position to succeed. That's what hawks culture is about under Pete. You come here and do your thing and Pete will help you with the rest. It's been proven at every other position. Look at the performance of our prized free agents once they left the nest. Earl Thomas? Good, not great. Maxwell? There are many. It's a pretty good list of players that made a lot of money based on the perception of what they might be based on their play in seattle.

Another clue thst this might actually be the case is that Russ for the last few years has been in the MVP talk at thr beginning of the season. Mahomes v RW one year, Lamar v RW another year. This year, RW V Allen / Rodgers. But every year, the performance waines and by seasons end , he's out of the picture. Maybe it's just always been that we've had decent coordinators developing solid schemes in the offseason to position him for success but for whatever reason, and you have to at some point entertain the idea that it might be Russ, defenses catch up and the QB struggles to adapt within the system. And maybe thats in part because it's always been so easy for him to just take control and do it on his own.

Listening to nfl talk today there's a ton opinion out there that supports this idea. That Russ needs discipline because he's been free to run around making magic, but hasn't perfected running a system. If you arent running the system properly and you fail as aresult, it's easy to look at the system if you don't know any better and from the outside, blame it. Especially when there is a pattern of success when going outside the system and winging it. But this year thr magic wasn't there.

All I'm saying is that this move in canning Schotty might not be the 'well its about time PC wakes up' moment and rather the ultimate show of support for his QB in helping him to succeed by changing the character of the offense so that his weaknesses aren't so consistently exploited. I don't think Pete wants another QB. HE and Russ are linked for life. He's gotta make it work. This just might be him trying to do that.

 

[rogerwilliambruce]

Pete Carroll was mediocre prior to Russell Wilson, and I see everyone believing that he is an awesome defensive coach. That is almost an oxymoron since our defense has been going downhill since he betrayed the team by not giving Lynch the ball. You read about the backbiting of the team against Wilson due to the treatment by Pete.

As head coach he is supposed to lead by understanding the team and building team identity. Pete Carroll miserably failed. In addition Pete has admitted to interfering in the offensive play calls for the back half of the season. Pete Carroll generally calls the plays in the Red zone and frankly he is not very good at it because everyone knows what he is going to call.

The problem with the team is that Pete and John have not drafted well and have traded draft picks poorly. In addition they have gotten the cost for the players to close to the top of the cap without investing in the O line for years, their neglect of the total dynamic is negligance at best. At this point fire Pete and John and rework the team as Pete has really painted the team into a corner. He has been getting glory because of Wilson when the fact is he is not a great coach.

 

[toffee]

As soon as we blew out the Jets he dialed it back, the defense looked to be coming into form and he neutered the offense.

Maybe before a few games, it looked like we had a offense that could inflict it's will and a defense that could shut things down, get turnovers and field position.

We didn't need hero ball, just unpredictable and balance.

Words of wisdom, we need more these in the crazy post Russ era

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[FresnoHawk52]

After Super Bowl 49, Pete held nobody accountable and the locker room fell apart. Hawks just lost to the Rams in a tragic display and the locker room started rumbling again,,,,,,,Schotty fired. Hmmmm

He was crushed! After decades of waiting for the match up which turned out to be the best SuperBowl head coach battle in NFL history, he had Belichick knocked out on the mat but Belichek got up to beat the clock, Belichick feint a punch, Pete countered and got knocked out cold by Belichick’s upper cut.

The whole Franchise was rattled!! It was a Super Bowl for the ages, everything on the line, it takes time to heal when you give everything you got and lose!

If Pete & John execute the master plan these next few months, like I know they can, it will be our time once again! Big moment for us we gotta go for it!