What defense are the Seahawks actually running?

[Chawker]

Were talk'n defense not offense my friend.

 

[A-Dog]

He's (Pete) is tring to put another man back in coverage, which starts all the turmoil rollin. DBs get lazy in there coverage, and the middle safty is easily pulled out of position. Stopping the run is another issue. Teams are having fun breaking down our defense.

What was wrong with the good ol 4-3 defense ?

I think we need to get away from the whole 4-3 vs 3-4 thing a) because it's no longer a good way to differentiate styles of defense, and b) as has been said, the most common defense even on base downs is nickel.

Pete's core principles haven't changed:
- Stop the run
- Don't give up anything deep
- Create turnovers
- Play sound (have gaps and zones covered - don't take scheme risks with lots of blitzing)

Unfortunately the league and the roster did change. The "old" LOB style of defense (4-3 under, Cover 3) had to change for a number of reasons:

1) Rules changes since have made it harder to play that style of defense. Even prime LOB would need to adjust with the rules in place now to protect QBs and receivers and encourage wide-open passing attacks.

2) The LOB was a simple scheme that relied on top-notch understanding and execution. Over time the scheme was copied and as tends to happen, the league adjusted and found answers.

3) This is obvious, but talent. Earl had incredible range and reactions which was key to playing a lot of single high. Kam was the most intimidating player in the league and throwing across the middle was punished. Bobby, KJ, Avril, Bennett, etc. HOF talent at numerous positions means you don't need to make things complicated.

4) Having Marshawn eating up time of possession on the ground and Russ consistently winning games late means you can play a conservative style defensively and still have the gas to finish out close games.

 

[hoxrox]

They're running the 7/11 defense. Open 24/7 in the middle for your convenience.



Don't get beat deep, keep everything in front. Prevent fast scores, but slow scores are okay. That'll give the offense extra time to rest on the sidelines!

 

[Jville]

In terms of % used I think you're right, although on base (running) downs (first downs, 2nd and short/medium) last year the Hawks I think played a more traditional 3-4 a significant amount. At least in this game two of the "others" were OLBs on 100% of the defensive snaps.

On Sunday they interestingly played a front 7 (with three off-ball LBs) when the Rams started drives with 12 personnel - which was interesting but probably not in the long-term plans with Adams coming back and ILB depth being limited.

I really wonder if the Dime package will get used more once Adams and Witherspoon are back - both have great instincts, anticipation, and aggression that could help both coverage and the pass rush, and even run defense.

Down the road I see this looking pretty intriguing as it gets the most talented and athleticism on the field (if you consider Wagner to be more of a run-down player):

Brown.............Nwosu...Jones...Reed...Mafe.............Woolen
........Witherspoon.............Brooks...........Adams
...........................Love
.............................................Diggs

Nice post.

I do hope they will become more dynamic up front as the season progresses. Although, I'm also wondering about the possibility of more dime coverage as well. Will they lean on a dynamic pass rush or pass coverage as the season unfolds? The answer remain to be seen.

 

[Chawker]

Hurtts saloon where the door swing both ways. And no pressure on tap.

 

[warden]

Lots and lots of Nickel against the Browns. Three safeties on base slash run plays. Three corners on pass plays. We really are running a 3 3 5. Kind of a cross between the 3/4 and 4/3 with the Leo on the line with two linebackers That is why the addition of Williams was so important. Need three very big and talented players to make up the three on the line.

 

[olyfan63]

Lots and lots of Nickel against the Browns. Three safeties on base slash run plays. Three corners on pass plays. We really are running a 3 3 5. Kind of a cross between the 3/4 and 4/3 with the Leo on the line with two linebackers That is why the addition of Williams was so important. Need three very big and talented players to make up the three on the line.

Is this a legacy of the Sean Desai residency? Where did all this come from? These changes in approach just seem so counter to the narrative that Pete is an old dog who doesn't learn new tricks. Or is it simply that we have more horses now, stars who can execute Pete's vision?

 

[Polk738]

Is this a legacy of the Sean Desai residency? Where did all this come from? These changes in approach just seem so counter to the narrative that Pete is an old dog who doesn't learn new tricks. Or is it simply that we have more horses now, stars who can execute Pete's vision?

The Seahawks seem to run a 2-4-5 nickel base defense out of a 2 high shell, I would say this is because so many teams now run so many kinds of plays out of so many different formations it gives them the versatility to counter just about anything, they've been able to stop the run efficiently for the most part even in a 2 high look-I think this is what Pete has wanted for awhile but just didn't have the right personnel for it until now. I don't know for sure what made Pete want to change his scheme but my guess is that Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan had ALOT to do with it, McVay's Rams have owned Pete for quite awhile now, and Shanahans schemes are their own problems to deal with as well with so much speed and motion, Pete had to change the defense to counter all the speed of those offenses.

 

[toffee]

Looking at the snap counts from Pro Football Reference, it appears the Seahawks lined up almost entirely in Nickel. Woolen, Diggs, Love, and Wagner all played 100% of the defensive snaps.

Snap Counts by Personnel:
3-4-4 (three interior linemen, two off-ball linebackers): 6 (8%)
2-5-4 (two interior linemen, three off-ball linebackers) 10 (12%) [SEE EDIT]
2-4-5 (two interior linemen, two off-ball linebackers): 48 (59%)
2-3-6 (two interior linemen, one off-ball linebacker): 17 (21%)

EDIT: Just realized after re-watching parts of the game, there were downs when Wagner, Brooks, and Bush were all out there at the same time, which I didn't initially factor in to my calculations above (I didn't chart plays, I just counted up snaps by position). That personnel grouping may happen less once Adams is back. Regardless, the amount of times when three interior lineman were played together was minimal.

It's only one game against the Rams, but based on this, the preseason, and the offseason personnel moves, it doesn't really look the the Seahawks are a 3-4 team (or a traditional 4-3 team) in terms of personnel (not talking about positioning, alignment, etc). It appears they are playing mostly in nickel (2-4-5) on base downs, with some 2-5-4 thrown in against 12 personnel and dime (2-3-6) on 3rd and long. They really only played 3-4-4 on the Rams' last drive when they were running down the clock.

The lack of urgency to fill the NT (0-tech/1-tech) position makes more sense here - they don't need a huge 2-gapper in the middle for the majority of plays. The good news is they looked capable of playing decent run defense with this personnel grouping. The bad news is that it didn't seem to help much with pressure, coverage, or generating turnovers. Again, this is the first game of the season against the Rams, so all this comes with a grain of salt. Still, it gives us an even more clear idea of where they want to go with the defense, and where it will need to improve.

In terms of pressure, aside from getting better production from the front-4, one thing that will need to improve is blitzing. Whether it was a four-man rush with an OLB dropping into coverage, or bringing extra men, instant pressure was non-existent and Stafford never seemed fooled. Bobby managed 6 sacks last season but he was a non-factor in this game, and he's limited in coverage so the temptation is probably to use him as a the extra man in the pass rush more often than not. Bryant I think made one good play off of a blitz (the Rams tried a flea flicker) but was also generally ineffective.

Adams and Witherspoon, with their instincts and aggression, should help improve the blitz along with the overall talent level. One big question is whether Carroll and Hurt will wean themselves off of Wagner on likely passing downs. Taking Wagner and Bryant out for Adams and Witherspoon should help, and allows the defense to be more "multiple" and perhaps the results will start living up to the vision.

I think "multiple" generally means being able to play different alignments and coverages out of the same personnel, but in order to do that your personnel must also be "multiple" - able to play in different positions with different responsibilities. Interior linemen that can play the run and pass, and can potentially play either 1 or 2 gaps. Outside linebackers that can set the edge against the run, pass rush, AND occasionally cover. Safeties that can play in the box or deep. Nickel-safety hybrids, etc.

One-dimensional players limit this and players like Woods, Poona, Jefferson and Barton were seemingly let go in favor of players who hypothetically can play well vs both run or pass. Unfortunately at this point Bobby, aside from his ability to call the plays and get people lined up properly, looks more and more like a run down specialist. To be fair that's a needed talent, but for the defense to progress we may need to see Brooks and Adams eating into his snaps.

For this to happen, we need to see Adams and Witherspoon replacing Love and Bryant on base/mixed downs, and Bobby coming off for Love on obvious passing downs (with Adams moving into the nickel off-ball linebacker spot next to Brooks). With Brooks, Adams, and Witherspoon in and around the box behind the front four there's a lot of potential for blitzing along with better coverage talent on critical 3rd and long situations.

Again, it was just one game, but it will interesting to see how the defense evolves once all of the pieces are back and the system has had time to gel.

Good job A-Dog, posts like this one make reading fun. Much appreciated and keep up the good work.

 

[toffee]

Is this a legacy of the Sean Desai residency? Where did all this come from? These changes in approach just seem so counter to the narrative that Pete is an old dog who doesn't learn new tricks. Or is it simply that we have more horses now, stars who can execute Pete's vision?

nah, you have been on dot net for a long time, you should know that Pete is a must fire? if our defense underperforms on this Sunday, there will be chanting of Fire Pete.

 

[warden]

I think with Williams they are going with a Three Three. Not enough beef with the two four

 

[TransGenderHawkFan]

I would love to seea base defense of 2-4-5 with Reed and Williams up the middle and Hall/Mafe on the ends. Seems like it would be good against the run or the pass

 

[Bear-Hawk]

For all the gnashing of teeth going on, one thing shows in the stats. The Seahawks were reasonably effective against the run. We held them to 92 yards total on 40 attempts. There were breakdowns here and there, but overall we held them to 2.3 yds/att.

Perhaps there was too much emphasis on run vs pass on D, because Stafford threw pretty much with impunity on us, but last year's chief complaint against the D did OK, at least.

Seahawks allow only 3.6 YPC in rushing defense. That ranks 3rd in NFL. It can only get better with Leonard Williams.

 

[bileever]

Pete's defense has been evolving over time. Offenses have long adapted to Pete's old scheme (which many teams were using), taking advantage of the soft spots in coverage.

This defense appears to be designed to counter Shanahan's outside zone scheme, with the front 6 or 7 stretched horizontally and faster outside LBs and tackling DBs to stop the run. We'll soon find out if it matches up or not.

 

[renofox]

My contribution from another thread. Snap Counts thru week 8.

https://www.seahawks.net/threads/4-3-or-3-4-snap-count-analysis.191401/

 

[cymatica]

I'd like to see Reed, Williams, and Jones all in with Mafe and Taylor/Clark on the ends.

 

[Xxx]

I had some thoughts, okay?

I just think it's more interesting to explore things a bit rather than just making useless blanket statements like "they suck, fire Pete"

Sometimes less is more… but i got this far cause of your thesis

 

[Xxx]

If you put 11 personnel out on the field with Metcalf, Lockett, and JSN and the defense responded with a traditional 4-3 what offensive plays would you call?

Slants. Curls. Gos. Depends on coverage and press. Probably more the coverage than the front. They should be able to run what they want. Combinations of things set up other things. But I wish we could see more slants for quick first downs. Even from the tight end or whatever they call those sit down routes right in the middle to the tight end.