Why is our defense so horrific?

TwistedHusky · Oct 22, 2020

My opinion of Norton as a DC isn't great. But as below average as I believe him to be, he isn't and shouldn't be HISTORICALLY awful. Still, it was reported we have given up more yards this many games than any team in history since the 1950s Colts.

That is pretty bad.

So what is going on?

A lot of teams with explosive offenses have defenses that are porous. Issues with rest, urgency, and other issues factor in but generally when you score a lot of points fast, your team gives up more. We have the most explosive offense in the NFL, so maybe that is it.

Also, when you score quickly, you give the ball back to the other team. That results in more overall opposing drives. Is there a stat for # of overall drives we have faced vs the NFL average?

Worst against the pass by far. We haven't faced too many opportunities in the RZ and have some high profile stops.

Exceptionally bad at allowing 1st down conversions on 1st downs.

But egregiously bad, (not the worst but near worst) in allowing conversions on 3rd downs.

And against the pass, we are horrific. Sports media is having a field day mocking our defense but they are right. One commentator said:

"If you are a QB playing the Seahawks and you pass for 350 yds against them, you had a bad game."

Really odd that pass defense would be historically bad with all the additions in the secondary. Understand we don't have a great pass rush but it isn't historically bad either. We are not even the worst in sacks. Everything points to how we are using our secondary instead of problems with the pieces.

We are middle of the road in terms of scoring but that might be due to the # of turnovers we have forced so far. Not sure how much of that is sustainable as we start to play better teams and better QBs. It certainly will not be near the opportunity to offset in the playoffs.

It is weird that a defensive-minded coach, having a half-decade of one of the best defenses ever in NFL history - is now fielding what is clearly the worst defense the Seahawks have ever put on the field. It might be one of the worst in the history of the NFL, especially if our TO forced pace slows.

????

(The funny part is that originally I was upset they let Norton go and promoted Kris Richard to DC instead. It felt that Norton would continue the energy and ability of the LOB. Wow, was I wrong)

AgentDib · Oct 22, 2020

Passing yards allowed is one of a very large number of metrics. I'm not sure why so many people around here focus on it exclusively, other than that we're giving up a lot. The secondary is a weakness without Adams and Dunbar, which the Seahawks obviously recognized when they went out and acquired them. I don't think it is news to anybody? that we have a problem without them in the lineup.

We may be "historically awful" in passing yards allowed, but we're 7th against the run, 6th fewest in penalty yardage, 3rd in drives ending in a turnover, and we're 20th in expected defensive point contribution. And as you've said, opposing offenses have been desperate to score against and taking big chances to do so due to how many points our own offense is putting up.

However, as long as our defense can hold up against the run, keep plays in front of them, and remain opportunistic then we can overcome giving up a lot of passing yards. We're not going to lose many games this season to opponents kicking field goals. There's also a pretty decent chance that fortune will bounce in your direction when you make the opponent run 15 plays to move the ball down the field. Adding Snacks and Kendricks looks like a move to further shore up the run defense, and getting Adams and Dunbar back eventually should make the opposing offenses work harder to move the ball through the air.

RCATES · Oct 22, 2020

It won't be addressed until we start losing. As long as we're winning most of the local fans and media will ignore how horrific this D has been. Under any other circumstances Norton would be on the hot seat.

Polk738 · Oct 22, 2020

Something I thought about today in regards to the defense. I was watching Skip Brainless whine about how much his Cowboys suck mainly the defense an he went on about how historically bad it was. Sound familiar? Of course he started bringing up a lot of the players on that D-line an how they had quite a few pro bowlers, Demarcus Lawrence, Everson Griffin, Dontari Poe, Aldon Smith, and of course Jaylon Smith an Vanderesch in the LB corps-on paper they have a talented front 7 but it definitely isn't showing on the field. D-Law is the highest paid DE in the league at $21 million a year but his stats so far are laughable for someone getting paid that much.
Griffin who a lot of us really wanted the Seahawks to sign in FA hasn't done much better at 1.5 sacks thru 6 games. Aldon Smith has been a pretty good pickup for them but he obviously hasn't been a game changer by any means. My point with this tho is the Seahawks didn't really break the bank on bringing a pro-bowler to this D-line an it's obviously been better than what the Cowboys tried to do-Yes the Hawks defense still obviously needs A LOT of work but think about how good it's been against the run overall and the turnovers it's created at the perfect times with mainly a bunch of nobodies. Just something to think about.

RCATES · Oct 22, 2020

Polk738":3vxbjlr4 said:
Something I thought about today in regards to the defense. I was watching Skip Brainless whine about how much his Cowboys suck mainly the defense an he went on about how historically bad it was. Sound familiar? Of course he started bringing up a lot of the players on that D-line an how they had quite a few pro bowlers, Demarcus Lawrence, Everson Griffin, Dontari Poe, Aldon Smith, and of course Jaylon Smith an Vanderesch in the LB corps-on paper they have a talented front 7 but it definitely isn't showing on the field. D-Law is the highest paid DE in the league at $21 million a year but his stats so far are laughable for someone getting paid that much.
Griffin who a lot of us really wanted the Seahawks to sign in FA hasn't done much better at 1.5 sacks thru 6 games. Aldon Smith has been a pretty good pickup for them but he obviously hasn't been a game changer by any means. My point with this tho is the Seahawks didn't really break the bank on bringing a pro-bowler to this D-line an it's obviously been better than what the Cowboys tried to do-Yes the Hawks defense still obviously needs A LOT of work but think about how good it's been against the run overall and the turnovers it's created at the perfect times with mainly a bunch of nobodies. Just something to think about.

Minnesota ran at will against us. Even with their back-up in the 2nd half. I think beat writer Greg Bell was spot on with his theory that the run D had been good stat wise because teams didn't run because they could easily throw on us. Minnesota game proved that. The D is just bad everywhere. Something I thought I'd never say on a PC team.

hedgehawk · Oct 22, 2020

Seems like we’ve abandoned press man and just drop into a soft zone much of the time. Easy completions/catches for the QB/WR and yardage piles up. Probably afraid of giving up the big play and think we’ll eventually make a play, or tighten up when opponents get in the red zone. 18th in points given up—-so about middle of the pack in that category.

hawks85 · Oct 22, 2020

TwistedHusky":211vxxkj said:
My opinion of Norton as a DC isn't great. But as below average as I believe him to be, he isn't and shouldn't be HISTORICALLY awful. Still, it was reported we have given up more yards this many games than any team in history since the 1950s Colts.

That is pretty bad.

So what is going on?

A lot of teams with explosive offenses have defenses that are porous. Issues with rest, urgency, and other issues factor in but generally when you score a lot of points fast, your team gives up more. We have the most explosive offense in the NFL, so maybe that is it.

Also, when you score quickly, you give the ball back to the other team. That results in more overall opposing drives. Is there a stat for # of overall drives we have faced vs the NFL average?

Worst against the pass by far. We haven't faced too many opportunities in the RZ and have some high profile stops.

Exceptionally bad at allowing 1st down conversions on 1st downs.

But egregiously bad, (not the worst but near worst) in allowing conversions on 3rd downs.

And against the pass, we are horrific. Sports media is having a field day mocking our defense but they are right. One commentator said:

"If you are a QB playing the Seahawks and you pass for 350 yds against them, you had a bad game."

Really odd that pass defense would be historically bad with all the additions in the secondary. Understand we don't have a great pass rush but it isn't historically bad either. We are not even the worst in sacks. Everything points to how we are using our secondary instead of problems with the pieces.

We are middle of the road in terms of scoring but that might be due to the # of turnovers we have forced so far. Not sure how much of that is sustainable as we start to play better teams and better QBs. It certainly will not be near the opportunity to offset in the playoffs.

It is weird that a defensive-minded coach, having a half-decade of one of the best defenses ever in NFL history - is now fielding what is clearly the worst defense the Seahawks have ever put on the field. It might be one of the worst in the history of the NFL, especially if our TO forced pace slows.

????

(The funny part is that originally I was upset they let Norton go and promoted Kris Richard to DC instead. It felt that Norton would continue the energy and ability of the LOB. Wow, was I wrong)

I am SO anti-Norton it's not even funny. He's straight garbage on every level possible, and no one will convince me otherwise. Norton was garbage in Oakland and he's garbage here. As long as that dude is our DC, I will have no faith whatsoever in this defense.

jammerhawk · Oct 22, 2020

Bend but don't break works as long as the O is scoring frequently. It certainly showed up against Minnie when the O was shut down early in the game pointing out how vulnerable the team could be a good defensive scheme.

Soft zone coverage allowing dink dunk passing to succeed unchallenged is at the root of the problem. Besides that the non-existent pass rush isn't helping either. Nortoan seemingly has few answers and is glacial in adjusting.

nwHawk · Oct 22, 2020

Time of possession. Need to control the clock better. I didn't say run, I said control. Dictate the game to your opponent, and quick strike when it's there.

RCATES · Oct 22, 2020

jammerhawk":3h0xbjgm said:
Bend but don't break works as long as the O is scoring frequently. It certainly showed up against Minnie when the O was shut down early in the game pointing out how vulnerable the team could be a good defensive scheme.

Soft zone coverage allowing dink dunk passing to succeed unchallenged is at the root of the problem. Besides that the non-existent pass rush isn't helping either. Nortoan seemingly has few answers and is glacial in adjusting.

Exactly. What happened against Minny in the first half happened all the time last year. This Offense has to be firing on all cylinders for us to win. That makes me nervous considering how up and down Wilson has been in the past. The Defense is a huge problem. If its not corrected we'll be exiting early again in the playoffs.

Chawker · Oct 22, 2020

Its a model of perspective, showing future opponents only what you want them to know, and being ready to smack them around when they foolish have played right into your hands.

You rip on Ken Norton jr., well ask yourself how was the Vikings ace RB doing up to his slightly pulled hammy doing?

It all comes down to "perspective".

Cheers Chawker

HawkerD · Oct 22, 2020

Too be sure Ken Norton is a hard nosed baller from back in the day. He is probably a pretty god position coach as well. But one thing he is not is a defensive innovator. He left Seattle because PC promoted Kris Richard ahead of him. That should have been hint #1 of his ability as a DC. PC bringing him back seems like a good ol boy kind of move.

Lets face it, on this team PC is the DC, creating the schemes and KN and Wags are calling plays with in that scheme. In my opinion its on PC to hand all the reins over to a innovative DC now that the talent level has regressed from the days of LOB. PC looked like a genius in 2013 & 2014 but now that style is showing its flaws with the lesser talent.

TwistedHusky · Oct 22, 2020

We run the clock down when we are passing. We are actually one of the teams that consistently snaps nearest 0 for this reason.

God knows how bad it would be if we ran hurryup. We are already trying to protect our defense.

Understandable this year defenses have struggled more. But we are the worst of the worst.

And again, the reason we aren't terrible at stopping scoring is we are top 5 in forcing TOs.

Will that continue? Likely not.

If we play a good team that scores near our clip, then what? Because when we take the lead, they are either going to come back to score or we will need a TO forced. (Admit it, when we came back to score against the Vikings, you almost expected us to let them back in FG range in under 30 seconds, didn't you?)

It feels weird to have this much disregard for letting teams in the red zone, or allowing them to milk possessions out thereby keeping our offense off the field. I expect to see this as a strategy to keep us from scoring, and likely make it impossible for us to catch up against the better teams.

Teams with good QBs will complete 8-10 yd passes regularly against us, walking down the field, and after getting into the RZ likely punch it in. We will be left with very little time and have to be exceptional at scoring in every offensive drive. We will likely need TDs in each drive.

Diving into the meat of our schedule soon will tell us much.

ivotuk · Oct 22, 2020

TwistedHusky":3ainfn82 said:
We run the clock down when we are passing. We are actually one of the teams that consistently snaps nearest 0 for this reason.

God knows how bad it would be if we ran hurryup. We are already trying to protect our defense.

This is NOT true. Last year, yes. But this year they get the snap off much faster, and at times play up tempo.

I think the reason is Schotty being in the booth where Pete can't constantly interfere.

HawkRiderFan · Oct 22, 2020

Imo our big weakness is third down pass D which is not surprising with the lack of pass rush with the front 4. That and the softer coverage of keeping everything in front after getting beat for big plays in weeks 2 and 3. And with our offence being lights out, it's forcing teams to pass to keep up. Ironically our offensive success is dictating that the other team play a style that exploits the biggest problem on the defence

TreeRon · Oct 22, 2020

If Zimmer is fired, I'd prefer we hire him over Quinn. That is if we release or re-assign Norton.

ivotuk · Oct 22, 2020

Interesting stat per John Clayton: "Pittsburgh blitzes on 57% of the snaps."

LTH · Oct 22, 2020

Why is our D so horrific?

It's not as bad as you think it is. the defensive starters have played one game together,,, that's it... lets see what happens if they can get through this injury thing and get our starters back and playing consistently together...

They are getting pass rush it's just not as consistent as it needs to be... Snacks is going to help out a bunch not that he is a great pass rush guy but because he is going to draw double teams and that's going to leave a good matchup for our linebackers and or an end... also snacks is a fresh body in an overworked rotation so Poona and the guys dont have to carry the load the whole game...

I think if they can just get some more consistent pass rush it's going to really help out the secondary... they are getting better but they are not there yet...

I just think one of the young guys has to step up it's still early the most we can hope for is for the D to improve every week just a bit and by the time the playoffs get here Im thinking they will be good enough to make a run at the SB... they just need time to work it out and maybe JS will find a DE to add..

be patient and enjoy 5-0 its going to work out

LTH

LTH · Oct 22, 2020

Polk738":30aml5b3 said:
Something I thought about today in regards to the defense. I was watching Skip Brainless whine about how much his Cowboys suck mainly the defense an he went on about how historically bad it was. Sound familiar? Of course he started bringing up a lot of the players on that D-line an how they had quite a few pro bowlers, Demarcus Lawrence, Everson Griffin, Dontari Poe, Aldon Smith, and of course Jaylon Smith an Vanderesch in the LB corps-on paper they have a talented front 7 but it definitely isn't showing on the field. D-Law is the highest paid DE in the league at $21 million a year but his stats so far are laughable for someone getting paid that much.
Griffin who a lot of us really wanted the Seahawks to sign in FA hasn't done much better at 1.5 sacks thru 6 games. Aldon Smith has been a pretty good pickup for them but he obviously hasn't been a game changer by any means. My point with this tho is the Seahawks didn't really break the bank on bringing a pro-bowler to this D-line an it's obviously been better than what the Cowboys tried to do-Yes the Hawks defense still obviously needs A LOT of work but think about how good it's been against the run overall and the turnovers it's created at the perfect times with mainly a bunch of nobodies. Just something to think about.

Totally agree!

LTH

TwistedHusky · Oct 22, 2020

Every team has injuries this year.

And historically, some teams have been bitten by the injury bug.

We don't have stellar backups but we don't have horrific ones (for the most part)

Does it make sense even then to be literally historically bad?

I really hope LTH is right.

Because this is weird and almost unsettling.

Why is our defense so horrific?

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