hawk45 wrote:I would think the way the season turned out would be a strong vindication of Pete’s approach.

Once teams took away the deep shots and played zone underneath his OC adjusted to scheme short routes that his QB couldn’t execute, instead of ramping up the rushing attempts (admittedly with Carson dinged up rushing wasn’t as attractive). I think Pete sat down with schotty and said okay let’s agree on one thing, our passing offense must have more balance or it cannot operate. If schotty voiced an opinion that we could pads our way out of it, that would have been the deal breaker that led to the firing.

Watching Tampa bays offense not have to carry the day because of good defense and excellent rushing would, I’m sure, do nothing to dissuade Pete either. I still am trying to figure out why KC didn’t run the ball early before they were behind when they knew the edges were compromised.

I think Pete can be blamed for not valuing OL highly enough given the limitations of the QB throwing short and Pete’s own preference to want to run the ball, but I’m not seeing this year as disproving his approach. He needs to get the D and run game back.

But we didn't do that. The Seahawks still had the primary reads be deep shots, and we still ran quite a bit of 7 step drops. We still were running the same offense, the issue is that we did NOT adjust. We also ran a lot of long developing drag routes. This style of offense existed in Seattle long before Brian Schottenheimer. What Bevell, and Bates did looked very similar.

Carroll believed the way to beat two deep safeties was a strong running game. That is true, but we had a lot of injuries to our running backs this season, as well as our offensive line. We've been unable to field a healthy running back stable. Carroll also ignored another obvious fact about tampa 2 defenses. The TE up the seam, and quick short passes underneath also kill that defense. Despite that we kept trying to force the ball downfield, just like the Chiefs did against the Buccaneers. This is the problem with Pete Carroll.

Pete Carroll is a coach that doesn't believe in strategy on offense. His idea is you line up, and if you're better you will beat them. We don't disguise what we do, we don't vary our snap tempo, we just line up and say "this is what we're going to do, try stopping us". This is an extremely problematic way to approach football. He also tends to view the offensive success more in terms of limiting turnovers above all else. That is a great approach if you have a top 5 defense in the NFL, but since 2017 we've ranked in the bottom 1/3rd in defense, and we've been inconsistent in our ability to run the ball. What we do have is an excellent QB with good weapons in DK Metcalf and Tyler Locket.

Carroll's problem is he has an extremely myopic, and narrow lense that he views the offense from. We've had offensive success, but when we do, it's always inevitable that he pulls back and defaults to what we saw in the last half of the year. He is acting like he has a top defensive unit, and top run game when we clearly do not. Carroll's ideal offense is something like the 90s, but that time does not exist any longer. Smash mouth football can still be effective, but most teams don't do it like they did back in the day.

I don't even mind if Carroll wants to run 50 percent of the time, but the way he's going about it is dumbfounding. He wants to run the ball more but cheaps out on offensive lineman. If you want a strong running game, that needs to be a priority. Instead of hiring chumps, imagine if we signed Graham Glasgow? He would have taken care of our left side, or center position. Imagine, Duane Brown, Glasgow, Procic, Lewis, and Shell? That line would have been much better.

Chris mentioned this before but the way our offense is structured also puts our running backs in harm's way, more so than most teams, and leaves them exposed.

Wilson is completely right here, Carroll needs to both fundamentally change a few key elements in his philosophy. Until he does that our QB is going to keep getting killed, and we're going to need to keep relying on him for late game heroics. Carroll needs to step back, and stop meddling with the offense and he needs to invest in linemen. If he does that he can have both a robust running game, and robust passing game, and healthier running backs. Let Waldon do his Sean McVay impersonation, and sit back and focus on your defense, the area where Carroll is an expert.

It's not run vs. Pass. It's how they run and how they pass. Predictable.

Late in the season we absolutely did ramp up the hitches, crossers, and outlets as primary reads and Wilson just never liked them. TE seam routes were there as well, and Wilson has hit those in the past but he was just TE averse this season. Schotty wasn’t trying to force it downfield, Wilson just didn’t like what he had underneath, and he had guys open.

It feels convenient and unfalsifiable to me to say Pete doesn’t believe in offensive strategy so I won’t address that.

Where I will definitely agree is that the RB health was a huge factor late in the season (not vs the rams which is why I don’t understand the underutilization if it there). And that if Pete wants to play that style, a perfectly solid and winning style, he has criminally under-valued OL his entire tenure. Trending upwards after cable was canned, but I have no issue whatsoever with Wilson or anyone else calling for more help there. Pete’s failure to address the OL means that the run game only works with a bell cow back like lynch or Carson. It’s hard to find those guys and harder to keep them healthy and unwise to pay for that position.

OL has been much better post-cable, but still could improve.

That does mean we face hard choices. Keep both DK and Lockett? Seek out a better TE? Slot? I sure hope Wilson understands that his weapons might deteriorate a bit if we buy more beef up front. To me it is worth it for an improved rushing attack.

The dynamic is Pete vs Wilson.

Currently, Pete is already near his expiration date (in terms of professional viability not health/life).

Wilson is not.

So betting on Pete you take the risk that literally any day is his last as coach.

Losing Wilson is a rebuild. Rebuilds take anywhere from 2-3 years, sometimes 5.

Keeping Wilson gives us a better chance at a top caliber coach candidate.

If we lose Wilson and then Pete steps down in the middle of a rebuild, do you want to guess at the quality of coaching candidates available to us? Not even 2nd tier. Retread or 3rd tier at best.

If Pete stays, Wilson is gone. If we want Wilson to stay, Pete has to be gone. Period.

There is no resolution that involves both of them because Wilson has made it clear that he does not want Pete impacting his chances for success anymore. And he views Pete as actively hampering those chances. (Rightfully so according to many fans including myself)

Wilson will play for Pete this next year but he is going to not put himself in harm's way because he will need to force a trade the next year. If Watson gets traded, he might even push it earlier. This means crazy heroics from Wilson. Almost no QB runs. His entire MO will be preserving himself for another team, and this team will feel the pain of a QB that is not invested in the team's success. We might not even make the playoffs.

Pete loves to do the bare minimum to win. He is going to find out what it looks like when his QB starts doing the same.

But there is no stuffing the genie back in the bottle. Wilson and Pete will not be able to coexist.

The ONLY reason to support Pete (an aging has-been at this point) is if you think Wilson is gone regardless and all you can do is squeak out what little value you can get from a coach that still has a system that would work with an average QB to at least be effective in the regular season, at least to keep you above .500.

TwistedHusky wrote:The dynamic is Pete vs Wilson.

Currently, Pete is already near his expiration date (in terms of professional viability not health/life).

Wilson is not.

So betting on Pete you take the risk that literally any day is his last as coach.

Losing Wilson is a rebuild. Rebuilds take anywhere from 2-3 years, sometimes 5.

Keeping Wilson gives us a better chance at a top caliber coach candidate.

If we lose Wilson and then Pete steps down in the middle of a rebuild, do you want to guess at the quality of coaching candidates available to us? Not even 2nd tier. Retread or 3rd tier at best.

If Pete stays, Wilson is gone. If we want Wilson to stay, Pete has to be gone. Period.

There is no resolution that involves both of them because Wilson has made it clear that he does not want Pete impacting his chances for success anymore. And he views Pete as actively hampering those chances. (Rightfully so according to many fans including myself)

Wilson will play for Pete this next year but he is going to not put himself in harm's way because he will need to force a trade the next year. If Watson gets traded, he might even push it earlier. This means crazy heroics from Wilson. Almost no QB runs. His entire MO will be preserving himself for another team, and this team will feel the pain of a QB that is not invested in the team's success. We might not even make the playoffs.

Pete loves to do the bare minimum to win. He is going to find out what it looks like when his QB starts doing the same.

But there is no stuffing the genie back in the bottle. Wilson and Pete will not be able to coexist.

The ONLY reason to support Pete (an aging has-been at this point) is if you think Wilson is gone regardless and all you can do is squeak out what little value you can get from a coach that still has a system that would work with an average QB to at least be effective in the regular season, at least to keep you above .500.

"The ONLY reason to support Pete (an aging has-been at this point) is if you think Wilson is gone regardless and all you can do is squeak out what little value you can get from a coach that still has a system that would work with an average QB to at least be effective in the regular season, at least to keep you above .500"

This ^^^ is where I think we're at Twisted. That's basically my argument. Pete isn't getting fired this offseason. Of course there's always a chance something odd happens, but I doubt it. I would prefer Russell's camp leak the rumor out there that if Pete isn't let go, Russell wants out. I'd prefer that to how they did it. I think this whole thing is an attempt to get ahead of it and try to frame it so it looks like Russell had no choice but to leave. I think he's leaving at some point between now and the end this contract, so I'm fine with shipping him out for as much as you can get (maybe package DK to max out return, IDK?).

And what you describe about what we'll get from Russell next season on the field, describes what I saw from him after the turnover spree. It was written all over his face all game in every game.

I still maintain this "Push" from Russell's camp should've come right after the season where our running game was non-existent (forget the year?) and he had to carry the load on the ground and with his arm. That philosophical conversation needed to happen back then and put to rest one way or another. Waiting until now buys no sympathy for Russell from me. Everyone in the world knows who Pete is and what he does and how he operates. It's Russell's career. He can do whatever he wants with it. There was nothing stopping him from making this push back then and I don't want to hear about maybe he was and it was being ignored. That's even more reason for him to force their hand prior to the last contract negotiation. So either Russ has been too chicken sh!t to bring it up until now or he brought it up and was too chicken sh!t to follow through by forcing a trade earlier or refusing to sign an extension and hitting the FA market.

Wilson is very concerned with his image.

He wants to be the good guy in this. So he is taking very careful, measured, almost calculated steps forward to assure the narrative is all 'Pete has shown he does not trust Wilson.' This narrative is everywhere.

And the FO is playing right into his hands, refusing to publicly support his QB, refusing to make a commitment to the same, and even potentially denigrating him behind the scenes.

The easier that Pete and this FO makes for Wilson to force his way out of here without looking like the bad guy? The sooner Wilson will push forward.

I don't think that Wilson would be willing to be the heel that forces his loyal & supportive fan base to watch him force his way out of a team that did everything it could for him. I think he would like to leave regardless but could be encouraged to say...he is loyal.

But this FO is screwing up and making it incredibly easy for Wilson to look like the good guy in this. Which makes me wonder if the FO is as stupid as the perception seems to be. Is Pete really OK with losing a HOF caliber quarterback because he got his pathetic feelings hurt or his ego bruised (which is hilarious considering the only success Pete has in the NFL is the direct result of Wilson)

We could keep Wilson. We could even keep Wilson and Pete. But then Pete has to be the bottom here. He has to just take it whether he likes it or not because what matters more is what his QB wants, not what he wants.

'Sorry Pete but you stopped being important enough to care about losing some time ago.' that needs to be the message Pete needs to hear because it is true.

TwistedHusky wrote:Wilson is very concerned with his image.

He wants to be the good guy in this. So he is taking very careful, measured, almost calculated steps forward to assure the narrative is all 'Pete has shown he does not trust Wilson.' This narrative is everywhere.

And the FO is playing right into his hands, refusing to publicly support his QB, refusing to make a commitment to the same, and even potentially denigrating him behind the scenes.

The easier that Pete and this FO makes for Wilson to force his way out of here without looking like the bad guy? The sooner Wilson will push forward.

I don't think that Wilson would be willing to be the heel that forces his loyal & supportive fan base to watch him force his way out of a team that did everything it could for him. I think he would like to leave regardless but could be encouraged to say...he is loyal.

But this FO is screwing up and making it incredibly easy for Wilson to look like the good guy in this. Which makes me wonder if the FO is as stupid as the perception seems to be. Is Pete really OK with losing a HOF caliber quarterback because he got his pathetic feelings hurt or his ego bruised (which is hilarious considering the only success Pete has in the NFL is the direct result of Wilson)

We could keep Wilson. We could even keep Wilson and Pete. But then Pete has to be the bottom here. He has to just take it whether he likes it or not because what matters more is what his QB wants, not what he wants.

'Sorry Pete but you stopped being important enough to care about losing some time ago.' that needs to be the message Pete needs to hear because it is true.

This whole thing is really fascinating to me. I think they (FO) have always valued Russ as the perfect type of QB to do what Pete wants to do and to them his current price was worth it. I'm not sure they, in their heart of hearts, value his skillset enough to hand over the keys to the car. I think they were talked into giving it a go this season and Russell didn't convince them that he was right.

I'm convinced that this is exactly where we're at right now. Russ thinks he can and they don't think he can.

For as good as Russ has been, he's been the one that has self sabotaged his MVP campaigns every time he's had a hot start. He's the one that has had too many games every season that were bad enough to remove him permanently from that conversation.

To me Russ is the ultimate example of the franchise QB that lands you in purgatory. You know, the QBs that are good enough that you can't justify moving away from them, but not good enough to take you to the promised land. Russ is however, kind of in a category all to himself. He's way closer to the next level than anyone else in that category. I think there are probably just as many people in the league that think he's great as there are that don't. The curiosity in me wants him to go somewhere that airs it out to see what happens over the course of a couple of seasons. It's not gonna be here and personally I don't want it to be.

If I were the owner of a NFL franchise, and I had to pick between Russ and Pete, I will eat the poison pill and pick Pete. Here's why:

1. Russ is an ambitious man, he has vision of himself as an owner of NFL franchise, and he will pull all stops to get there.

2. First obstacle towards that goal at this point? Pete, Russ wants to wrestle team decisions chip by chip away from Pete. We are watching it in progress.

3. Once Pete is out of the way, me as the owner would have to deal with Russ. Do I want to? Hell no.

4. Down side of siding with Pete, he is old with limited shelf life left, without a franchise QB, Pete's team was 8-8 at best. But heck Pete could luck into another QB too. Ever wonder why we never had a young backup QB with upside? Russ!

5. GM, HC, QB comes and goes, me the owner do not want to deal with a super star QB that pals with the commissioner and want a piece of my pie.

Listen Ms Allen, prepare to trade Wilson.

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