Let's be honest about Russell Wilson

SeAhAwKeR4life · Oct 11, 2021

Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

Put me mostly in the "love" camp.

Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?

I mean it seems to me, I saw him literally bounce one of a guy's helmet. Like Flutie before him, he CAN be used effectively, but it takes some scheming and a "non traditional" line who is capable of blocking for such a QB.

Did we not see Geno come in cold and run the offense with better timing and efficiency?

RW is a great QB who CAN and HAS overcome his own weaknesses in the past. Hell the guy's "weakenesses" themselves are not talent related, just simple physics, a guy his size can't see over the O/D lines!

The thing is, it's hard enough to protect a "pocket passer" a guy tall enough to play the WCO and hit the short routes effectively. But we're not asking our line to do that, We're asking our line to protect a guy whos game REQUIRES him to get out of the pocket. He also takes sacks for this reason. So I think his downside is not nearly as much his fault as our inability to get the necessary talent and scheme around the guy to make him as effective as he can be.

I would MUCH rather see other player/coaching changes, changes that see Russell Wilson prospering and playing to the level he can here in Seattle. Unfortunately I see things more likely going the other way. I see Pete, whose shelf life is clearly past, still here, and Russel wanting to leave (and if you were him, wouldn't you?)

I got three SuperbOwl appearances and one GREAT championship out of my Seahawks before I passed, and I will always be grateful, I never thought I would. But I can't say I have much faith in today's Seahawks not disappointing me again.

I HATE saying this, but I'd rather see Wilson go and prosper, than stay and stagnate. :34853_doh:

I don't have faith in Pete, or the ownership, to fix this. I hope I am wrong.

Jerhawk · Oct 11, 2021

Very good post and I completely agree.

And I thought that was why we brought Waldron in, to move the pocket for Wilson.
The Rams play action and movement game was so effective I thought that's what we'd see more of here.

Because you're right, Wilson outside the pocket is much more effective than Wilson staying in the pocket. Not saying he can't throw from the pocket, but he is better out of the pocket.

Instead, the offense we've seen is more of the same. Read option, no motion, just let Wilson stand back there and get crushed.

It makes no sense to me whatsoever how the offense we saw week 1 has been scrapped for the same offense from the last 10 years. Blows my mind

TwistedHusky · Oct 11, 2021

Every player has weaknesses.

Great coaches build their systems to maximize the strengths of their team & best players, while minimizing weaknesses.

It is pretty telling that nearly 10 years in, Pete is still trying to figure out some system to do that for Wilson.

I am betting the moment Wilson leaves, we are going to find him doing things nobody here is used to, because the other coach will build a system around what he does best instead of trying to force a framework and then occasionally letting Russ go outside of the framework when needed.

Betting at least half of these supposed 'weaknesses' of Wilson will magically vanish when he leaves here and everyone will be completely surprised.

BASF · Oct 11, 2021

Jerhawk":3i1dq6xw said:
Very good post and I completely agree.

And I thought that was why we brought Waldron in, to move the pocket for Wilson.
The Rams play action and movement game was so effective I thought that's what we'd see more of here.

Because you're right, Wilson outside the pocket is much more effective than Wilson staying in the pocket. Not saying he can't throw from the pocket, but he is better out of the pocket.

Instead, the offense we've seen is more of the same. Read option, no motion, just let Wilson stand back there and get crushed.

It makes no sense to me whatsoever how the offense we saw week 1 has been scrapped for the same offense from the last 10 years. Blows my mind

These are the plays Wilson wants to run. Carroll, Waldron and Wilson have all said in their press conferences that the full playbook is available to Wilson who can audible to any play. He is likely the impetus that the successful week one offense was dialed back. His hero ball desire is where he is comfortable. It seems kind of suspicious how many times he goes cold in the third quarter only to come alive in the fourth from that perspective.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 11, 2021

TwistedHusky":3viu06u0 said:
Every player has weaknesses.

Great coaches build their systems to maximize the strengths of their team & best players, while minimizing weaknesses.

It is pretty telling that nearly 10 years in, Pete is still trying to figure out some system to do that for Wilson.

I am betting the moment Wilson leaves, we are going to find him doing things nobody here is used to, because the other coach will build a system around what he does best instead of trying to force a framework and then occasionally letting Russ go outside of the framework when needed.

Betting at least half of these supposed 'weaknesses' of Wilson will magically vanish when he leaves here and everyone will be completely surprised.

Maybe Pete has done a good job of catering the offense to Russell's strengths.

In year 10 Russell's on pace to break most QB records, including wins in the first 10 years of a career and on his way to putting on a gold jacket. QBR, TD's, Passer ratings, completion ratings, and wins. On pace ahead of all other QB's.

So while I'm now firmly in the fire Pete camp, to say he hasn't gotten the most out of Russell is not a logical opinion.

Maybe, just maybe we're seeing the best of Russell. Who is a QB that needs a good defense and a strong run game to take advantage of his great play action, clutch creativity and deep ball passing game.

And until he goes elsewhere or another coaching regime comes in here and totally overhauls the offense, anyone who says different? Pure unadulterated speculation.

TwistedHusky · Oct 11, 2021

Maybe Largent.

Initially, Pete was spectacular at it.

He found ways of taking guys that were not 'prototypes' for their position and then putting them into to systems that maximized their strengths while mitigating their weaknesses. And in doing, he got these players for relatively cheap.

Everyone wanted fast corners like Shawn Springs at the time. 5 9 to 5 11 corners that ran 4.4 or 4.3 were coveted.

Pete saw that bigger but physical corners could be just as effective, and few were clamoring for them.

230lb safeties were turned into smaller/fast LBs often. Pete turned Kam into a key piece of his defense instead.

So he could have built a system around Wilson.

But you have to look at so many players that came through here and were forced to do things or play the position in ways that were not tied to their strengths. There is a long list of trades/moves that did not work out for this reason. The big one we all remember was Jimmy Graham being asked to be a blocking TE.

At some point, not sure when, Carroll started thinking the winning was because of him and not the players. And as long as the players stuck to his system and tactics it would all work out. So considering how often it happened - call me skeptical that he built out his whole approach to maximize Wilson's value.

Because it sounds to me like his love affair with the 'Toxic Diffential' was just as much a contributor to the tactics/strategy as Wilson being good at those things were.

Wilson has now had near 10 years of practice doing those things and playing that way, it should surprise nobody that he is good at it but not good at the other things he normally never was asked or even allowed to do.

That might be more because of Pete than Wilson though. Because so many other players fall into that pattern.

Sgt. Largent · Oct 11, 2021

TwistedHusky":1rax1u9z said:
Wilson has now had near 10 years of practice doing those things and playing that way, it should surprise nobody that he is good at it but not good at the other things he normally never was asked or even allowed to do.

That might be more because of Pete than Wilson though. Because so many other players fall into that pattern.

If you study Russell's college career, it looks very similar to what he's doing here in Seattle. i.e., run around, extend plays and make clutch throws downfield.

That's his game, and even in the brief glimpse of Smith running the same Waldron offense we saw it Thursday night. We saw that Geno appeared to have a better command of the offense than Russell did. He made protection calls, and got the ball out on time to DK (more times than Russell did the entire game), TE's, screens.

That's my point. Maybe we're giving Russell too much credit and blaming Pete too much.

Not saying Russell's not a great QB, he is. Obviously. But this unproven narrative that Pete's somehow holding him back IMO is not just true.........or at least just not proven to be true. Because again, you don't know until he's somehow even MORE awesome with another team or HC.

Because you know what? I have a sneaky suspicion wherever Russell goes, or whoever's coaching him, you're not going to notice a drastic difference in how he plays.

xray · Oct 11, 2021

The older he gets the better he was . He's peaked and that's just the way it is . Age and 45 sacks every year doesn't help ; and of course mediocre O lines and inconsistent defenses and coaches that seem clueless at times are career wreckers for any QB . He is now entering the time and age where injuries start to happen too . He should move on from the Hawks if he was smart after this season . IMO

TwistedHusky · Oct 11, 2021

Largent,

It would be odd if Pete did that with so many other players and then deviated specifically for Wilson.

But

...QBs are so important to the success of a team it is possible.

You could also look at all those 2 minute comebacks from Wilson where he seems to defy the very description people have of his abilities. He flings short passes all over the field. He throws quick passes and slants. He keeps the chains moving to march into the EZ.

We have all seen it. Is that an outlier? The result of playing against different or tired defenses at end of the game?

No idea.

But you see it enough you can't say he isn't good at those things.

Now, with 10 years playing a specific way and a lot of habits/instincts now ingrained? It is likely that he will continue to play that way when he moves on. No disputing that. But is that because of Wilson or Pete?

Not sure it would be easy to prove anymore and you could make an argument for either case.

TheLegendOfBoom · Oct 11, 2021

Sgt. Largent":3eu920m3 said:
TwistedHusky":3eu920m3 said:

Wilson has now had near 10 years of practice doing those things and playing that way, it should surprise nobody that he is good at it but not good at the other things he normally never was asked or even allowed to do.

That might be more because of Pete than Wilson though. Because so many other players fall into that pattern.

Click to expand...

If you study Russell's college career, it looks very similar to what he's doing here in Seattle. i.e., run around, extend plays and make clutch throws downfield.

That's his game, and even in the brief glimpse of Smith running the same Waldron offense we saw it Thursday night. We saw that Geno appeared to have a better command of the offense than Russell did. He made protection calls, and got the ball out on time to DK (more times than Russell did the entire game), TE's, screens.

That's my point. Maybe we're giving Russell too much credit and blaming Pete too much.

Not saying Russell's not a great QB, he is. Obviously. But this unproven narrative that Pete's somehow holding him back IMO is not just true.........or at least just not proven to be true. Because again, you don't know until he's somehow even MORE awesome with another team or HC.

Because you know what? I have a sneaky suspicion wherever Russell goes, or whoever's coaching him, you're not going to notice a drastic difference in how he plays.

I believe your last sentence is probably correct.

We need to consider these comebacks maybe exactly how Wilson wants to play the entire time so he looks like a “Hero.”

I have discuss Wilson incapable throws over the middle, short quick timing throws, because he cannot see the field beyond the offensive lineman. So naturally, he waits until receivers are wide open to throw for long balls.

I think you’re correct in if Wilson plays for another team, he will largely play similar to here, wait for a long time, possibly get sacked, all in effort only wanting to hit the deep ball rather than take the easy short completions over the middle.

I’m still in favor for firing Carroll, as I believe he has peaked and has no ideas on how to adjust and play 2021 defense without playing soft zone coverages.

But I’d like to see Carroll and Wilson (when Wilson’s contract is up) gone.

The Seahawks need to clean house and that includes Wilson.

We need a new young stud QB and a new head coach that is adaptive of todays NFL.

And I will take some losing seasons to get this turned around.

John63 · Oct 11, 2021

TwistedHusky":2w3s872l said:
Every player has weaknesses.

Great coaches build their systems to maximize the strengths of their team & best players, while minimizing weaknesses.

It is pretty telling that nearly 10 years in, Pete is still trying to figure out some system to do that for Wilson.

I am betting the moment Wilson leaves, we are going to find him doing things nobody here is used to, because the other coach will build a system around what he does best instead of trying to force a framework and then occasionally letting Russ go outside of the framework when needed.

Betting at least half of these supposed 'weaknesses' of Wilson will magically vanish when he leaves here and everyone will be completely surprised.

All true, however a few points

lineman are 6 foot 5. So unless your QB is 6 foot 6 you cant see over them. That is what there must be passing lanes.

Wilson has one of the best complt% and passer rating in the pocket in the league.

As to the rest again there are threads already posting the passing charts for Wilson and for Geno and you will see Wilson throw short as much or more than Geno. There is the time to throw times where Wilson is the fastest of the 3 Qbs in the Rams game.

The problem is people don't want to believe the truth and instead make stuff up. All Qbs have weaknesses even Brady. But for some reason, some have decided Wilsons are insurmountable or hurt the team when n the fact shows the opposite.

The reality is some are actually trying to say a guy who prior to being injured was top 10 in passing yards, YPA, COmplt%, TDS. td/int, and passer rating. With most top 5 and some #1 Yet for some that is still not enough.

Part of me wants Wilson to leave so he can get away from PC and some of these so-called fans. But as a Seahawks fan I know once he leaves we are screwed for years.

scutterhawk · Oct 11, 2021

Pete had secured one of the best Running Backs in the League to complement whoever was going to be up behind Center.....Enter Russell 'The Scrambler' Wilson....This was a pairing matchup, made for the ages, and Pete should be getting the accolades for that, rather than the crap remarks he's gotten, it isn't his fault that he can't find a suitable RB to replace Marshawn Lynch, (lord knows he's tried)....Now, having said that, it's not like he's off the hook for the way things have gone awry either.
There's a blueprint that's been drawn up by Sean Payton on how to get the most out of a Quarterback with the ONE limitation...Lack Of Height, Now that's not to say that Wilson isn't responsible for SOME of his own mistakes either, because he most certainly is.
It's pretty damned hard to fault either Pete or Russell for the misfires...You have to take the good with the bad.
Okay, let's talk about Waldron....Who in their right mind believes that Wilson would be able to hit a switch in his head, and immediately turn off the type of play and mindset that has gotten him to be one of the top 5 Quarterbacks in the League, & instantly go 100% Waldron?
To be honest?, I'm way more concerned with our struggles on the Defensive side of the ball.

sprhawk73 · Oct 11, 2021

RW is brilliant at ad lib play. When he won the job I thought we've another Brett Favre and expected those chaotic games we recall in GB and Holmgren bursting blood vessels talking about Brett.

I think a lot of us still figure PC keeps the reigns on RW because he's afraid he will go Brett Favre.

But RW is a veteran now and should be damn near unstoppable and it seems like he would be If he was playing to his strength and rolled out to the weak side.

I would love to see RW directing the offense, hurry up, quick snaps, runs and rolling out. I hate seeing the ball snapped as the play clock expires on every play. Like our oline isn't bad enough.

But even with this season all but over I still bet we won't see it.

LTH · Oct 11, 2021

SeAhAwKeR4life":2rcgkb13 said:
Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

Put me mostly in the "love" camp.

Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?

I mean it seems to me, I saw him literally bounce one of a guy's helmet. Like Flutie before him, he CAN be used effectively, but it takes some scheming and a "non traditional" line who is capable of blocking for such a QB.

Did we not see Geno come in cold and run the offense with better timing and efficiency?

RW is a great QB who CAN and HAS overcome his own weaknesses in the past. Hell the guy's "weakenesses" themselves are not talent related, just simple physics, a guy his size can't see over the O/D lines!

The thing is, it's hard enough to protect a "pocket passer" a guy tall enough to play the WCO and hit the short routes effectively. But we're not asking our line to do that, We're asking our line to protect a guy whos game REQUIRES him to get out of the pocket. He also takes sacks for this reason. So I think his downside is not nearly as much his fault as our inability to get the necessary talent and scheme around the guy to make him as effective as he can be.

I would MUCH rather see other player/coaching changes, changes that see Russell Wilson prospering and playing to the level he can here in Seattle. Unfortunately I see things more likely going the other way. I see Pete, whose shelf life is clearly past, still here, and Russel wanting to leave (and if you were him, wouldn't you?)

I got three SuperbOwl appearances and one GREAT championship out of my Seahawks before I passed, and I will always be grateful, I never thought I would. But I can't say I have much faith in today's Seahawks not disappointing me again.

I HATE saying this, but I'd rather see Wilson go and prosper, than stay and stagnate. :34853_doh:

I don't have faith in Pete, or the ownership, to fix this. I hope I am wrong.

I think that Russ's contract is coming up and Pete is going to have a good idea what he has in Geno Smith... this is Geno's time to show what he has... it might turn out that Geno is what most think he is a career back up or it might turn out that Geno has what it takes to be a great starting caliber starting QB in the NFL. That right now is up to Geno... I think its going to be interesting to see what happens... Carroll whole system is based on competition for everybody but Russ... I for one am hoping that Geno lights it up because then it falls back on Russ... How is Russ going to respond to that... well typically Russ responds really well in that situation... I just think its a good situation for everybody

LTH

Seymour · Oct 11, 2021

SeAhAwKeR4life":22wiqhgv said:
Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

.......Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?.......

Please check out the career stats and game film of a guy named Drew Brees who is 1" taller than Russ and get back to us.

sdog1981 · Oct 11, 2021

Seymour":2mj8he9r said:
SeAhAwKeR4life":2mj8he9r said:

Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

.......Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?.......

Click to expand...

Please check out the career stats and game film of a guy named Drew Brees who is 1" taller than Russ and get back to us.

This is kind of the main point of the problem.

Russ can play like Drew Brees, why has he not embraced carving teams up with 7 to 11-yard completions?

Based on the noise coming from the Wilson camp, I have a feeling he is affected by the outside noise, he wants to play hero ball and throw 50 yard TD passes. He has become a boom or bust QB. Even three years ago at Carolina, they went for it on a 4th and 6, and instead of going for the first down, he threw a 40-yard pass to David Moore for a TD. It was amazing and it was fun but it was a boom or bust pass.

John63 · Oct 11, 2021

sdog1981":23qkvh7y said:
Seymour":23qkvh7y said:

SeAhAwKeR4life":23qkvh7y said:

Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

.......Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?.......

Click to expand...

Please check out the career stats and game film of a guy named Drew Brees who is 1" taller than Russ and get back to us.

Click to expand...

This is kind of the main point of the problem.

Russ can play like Drew Brees, why has he not embraced carving teams up with 7 to 11-yard completions?

Based on the noise coming from the Wilson camp, I have a feeling he is affected by the outside noise, he wants to play hero ball and throw 50 yard TD passes. He has become a boom or bust QB. Even three years ago at Carolina, they went for it on a 4th and 6, and instead of going for the first down, he threw a 40-yard pass to David Moore for a TD. It was amazing and it was fun but it was a boom or bust pass.

again look at the thread with the passing charts. You will see most of his passes have been short, WC-type passes. It is a false narrative he can't or won't. The fact is complt% is over 70 means he does you cant do that throwing on all the time.

Seymour · Oct 11, 2021

sdog1981":3abz6erh said:
Seymour":3abz6erh said:

SeAhAwKeR4life":3abz6erh said:

Without the over the top love or hate, can we?

.......Realistically though I do see Russ has weaknesses. His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?.......

Click to expand...

Please check out the career stats and game film of a guy named Drew Brees who is 1" taller than Russ and get back to us.

Click to expand...

This is kind of the main point of the problem.

Russ can play like Drew Brees, why has he not embraced carving teams up with 7 to 11-yard completions?

Based on the noise coming from the Wilson camp, I have a feeling he is affected by the outside noise, he wants to play hero ball and throw 50 yard TD passes. He has become a boom or bust QB. Even three years ago at Carolina, they went for it on a 4th and 6, and instead of going for the first down, he threw a 40-yard pass to David Moore for a TD. It was amazing and it was fun but it was a boom or bust pass.

The reason he doesn't play (sustained) like Brees is crap O-line over the years has created the hero ball mentality because protection cannot be relied on IMO. He has been hammered so bad over the years he has gotten a bit of David Carr syndrome going on and it's Pete / John / Tom's fault.

TwistedHusky · Oct 11, 2021

The key is we HAVE Wilson NOW.

So we better find a way to make that work.

Because you lose Wilson and you lose relevance.

If we lost Pete, we could get another coach and immediately have a chance to keep winning with a healthy Wilson.

If we lost Wilson? You will see what that looks like soon, but we become a bottom feeder.

Go to the top NFL teams in the league, up until #12 - they all have great to very good QBs (one exception Browns)

Now look at the bottom, the only teams with above-average QBs that are in the bottom half?

Atlanta and maybe Vegas, Cincy, or Tenn.

If you want to be above average in this league, you better have an above-average QB.

If you want to be a top 10 team, you absolutely have to have a great QB.

So getting rid of your great QB because you don't like his flaws? Dumb.

Find a way to make it work or face 5-10 years of losing football (since many teams look for good QBs for over 10 years).

Wilson isn't perfect. But if you are being 'honest' then be honest about our chances without him. They are VERY LOW.

Tusc2000 · Oct 11, 2021

SeAhAwKeR4life":vtojv87y said:
His inability to play a consistent short pass west coast kind of game comes down to just being too short to be an effective pocket passer. If you can't stay in the pocket, behind guys who are over 6 feet and see the field, how can you hit targets on short WCO schemes?

.

It has been an awfully long time since I read any rumblings from the RUSS IS TOO SHORT!! crowd.

Not long enough apparently <sigh>

Let's be honest about Russell Wilson

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