Bevell Not Going Anywhere

[vin.couve12]

Choose your words wisely. Sometimes the messenger gets shot.

Or maybe kicked down well of darkness or something, I guess; but whatever.

You talkin' to me? :les:

I actually don't even know. Just read the title is all. More or less just entertaining myself, man. Laughter....does a crazy good.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

That his letter of reference for other teams. It's 'crucial to our future' that another team takes him off our hands [FACE WITH TEARS OF JOY]

 

[Optimus25]

Like I said In another thread Pete has just proved that he is a great salesman, showman, and motivational speaker but He is not a great coach. The man across the field from him coaching in his sixth super bowl and winning his fourth super bowl would have fired his OC for making that call and would never have allowed a coordinator who has already taken a HC job with another team to still coach his team in the super bowl.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Pete can fix this with " honest Monday" or what ever he calls it. Its strait out of a Zig Ziglar manual.

Did I read that right? Pete is not a great coach? REALLY? Wow!! That totally blows my mind... and I think you are wrong... maybe its like everybody so hurt by this loss that they just cant see past it right now... ok Im out of here for a month or so till everyone calms down...


LTH

Pete is a pretty good coach, I don't think anyone can deny that. But he has his faults. The main one is that there are very minute places where he is outrageously out coached. Bellicheck followed the San Diego method of dinking and dunking --why didn't the Hawks change it up? At least make it so they get beat in a different way.

Pete is a great coach when it comes to being the president --motivation, overall work ethic, etc. When it comes to the minute details, he leaves it up to his positional coaches. And in this game, the offensive coordinator made the worst mistake in football history. It just was and there is no way around it. I blame Bevell, and I blame Pete for allowing it to happen. It cost the Seahawks a superbowl.

It doesn't mean Pete should be fired or even Bevell should be fired. It just means that they were responsible for the worse playcall in football history. The fact that it came in the NFL makes it the worst in football history, just because the stakes at the NFL level are so much more than college or highschool or PeeWee ball. The fact that it came in the superbowl makes it the worst in NFL and thus football history. For the Pete/Bevell supporters, there is no reason to lie. You may think he is an incredible coach, but then just admit that an incredible coach is responsible for the biggest most insane call in football history. Everyone makes mistakes, even great coaches.

i really like your words but what we have to ask ourselves (or pete has to ask himself)- ok, is someone else likely to have this level of success or greater? and also, who is more likely to succeed and or fail in those exact circumstances again in the future? did bevell evolve or is this a trend?

well, first of all i don't know how our offensive gameplans in the NFCCG and Super Bowl could have been worse. Bevell got 100 % BAILED OUT by a Foot Locker employee and one Russell Wilson. 0 gameplanning in either game led to any relevant points on the board. mcdaniels, who i really don't care for at all, absolutely embarrassed bevell's life all day long by exposing our defense while bevell came out vanilla with a side of crap. oh yeah, in all of this i think we've forgotten about the great first drive out of the half followed by a 3rd down in the red zone where bevell inexplicable calls the twins wide on each side of the field formation. so NE says ok, we'll just man up since they haven't gotten great separation all day and stack the box. yeah, great one DB.

I'm tired of him getting a pass because of the players on this team pulling plays out of their behind to make up for the fact that he is the most inconsistently efficient gamecaller around. Sure he has his days. some days my wife's dog doesn't crap on my carpet either. But there are plenty of poop days to go around, and bevell just pooped in the bed. now it's time for the doggy to go! There are plenty more, and i'm in shock anyone sincerely believes it can get worse. Prove it's always compete here in Seattle by holding your staff to the same standard as the players.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

So John Clayton is your expert?A media persona>?I'd rather let Pete decide and if certain players don't like it -they can be replaced..

Yeah, that cracks me up. When was John Clayton EVER part of a NFL locker room.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Carroll is a good coach, but if he is going to surround himself with garbage like Cable and Bevell then maybe Pete needs to go.

Wow, dude...do you have a 'medium' setting? [emoji102]

 

[plyka]

Quote from Pete Carroll

"First off, Darrell is an incredible playcaller. He's done a fantastic job. We are so lucky to have him. He has been absolutely instrumental in what we have done. He is an awesome guy on our staff and crucially important to our future, as well."

It's a good thing Pete has never said that about anyone he's ever let go. Like Lendale White or Mike Williams.

But seriously, I think Bevell is here to stay, and we all better get used to it. And really, he's done a good job overall. I don't think we'd be where we are without him, nor would Wilson be who he is without him.

Are there significant flaws? Certainly. But other than Bill Walsh I've never know a perfect playcaller.

I'd agree with this. We could do a lot worse than Bevell. I mean, I'm pissed as hell at him, but ultimately, this is Pete's team. Don't for a minute think, that Pete didn't know what the call was, and signed off on it.

At the end of the 1st half, I was saying "just take the points". They threw the back shoulder fade to Matthews and got the TD. At that point I said 'never mind. You're smarter at football than me, Mr. Carroll".

I keep hearing this excuse --as though somehow the GREAT call they made at the end of the 2nd quarter justifies the worse call in football history. How? Just because there is risk in both plays? By that logic, the play at the end of the 2nd quarter justifies every play call ever made. Perhaps they should have punted on 2nd down and goal at the end of the game? That would have been even more risky, and they took some risk at the end of the 2nd half so it's all good.

It's not about risk --it's about risk versus reward. At the end of the 2nd quarter, you can take 3 points, or take a shot at the end zone and then take the three points. What is the risk? Interception. The potential reward is 4 points assuming zero risk on a field goal. What's the chance at an INT? Let's say15%. The reward, 133% return on points, warrants the risk. At the play on 2nd and goal --here what is the risk and what is the reward? The reward is actually nothing, when factoring in the risk, it is a massively negative proposition. If you just run instead of pass you may have a 95% chance of scoring a TD. If you pass, you may have a 25% chance at INT, and a much lesser chance at a TD. Why take that 25% risk when you are in a position with 2 or 3 runs from the 1 yard line? It makes ZERO SENSE, it is the absolute worst decision in football history. Again, this doesn't mean that Pete is a bad coach or that Bevell is horrible --it just means these coaches made the worst decision in football hisstory.

 

[plyka]

Gotta' loves Carroll's attitude in his response. Not because we're keeping Bevell but because if we are going to replace him, it's not going to be done as a knee-jerk reaction after a heart-breaking loss. We're planners and we aren't going to move on from an imperfect coordinator only to put ourselves in a position where we might be forced to replace him with another imperfect coordinator all while needlessly sacrificing Bevell's experience working within this team.

What's strange though is our primary method for pursuing improvement is demanding for someone's removal. Eastern philosophers have criticized modern American culture's tendency to cause us to think people are made into what they are as opposed to something more logical, like thinking we instead grow into what are and what we continue to become. It's hard not to think about this criticism when what we're basically asking and even demanding is that PC and JS essentially throw Bevell away and buy us a better made coordinator. It also sheds some light onto the thinking of the anti-Bevell crowd and the direction this conversation ought to go from here on out.

What "Bevell-haters" want isn't any different from any other Seahawk fan. They want improvement and their desires are only more specific and focused upon the perceived weak-link that is Bevell. The problem is this specific focus does a disservices to the wealth of human capacity for improvement, clogs the canals for more constructive conversation, and leaves too little room for all the questions we ought to have. This is a form of rumination and rumination is ultimately useless.

Surely there's another direction to go for this conversation other than once again paraphrasing "Our OC is broken. Please buy us a new one." Surely we'll all get a lot more out of that conversation than the fruitless one we've been having since 2012.

If the only way improve our play-calling, formation selection, and all else is to find someone new then who? Why would that person want to come here to co-run the offense with Tom Cable when he might find an opportunity with more autonomy? If Bevell is to remain here and we still wish to improve, what negative tendencies of his must be accounted for in the future? Where is the fine-line between being effectively creative and a cutesy wannabe guru? When does Bevell tend to cross this line most?

Convince people with your reasoning and not your conclusion!

Just out of curiosity, how far has Eastern Philosophy gotten the east? Japan is the most advanced country in the East, and they aren't the first country you think about when you bring up Eastern Philosophy. Also, what's the goal here? Is the goal to make Bevell the best he can be, or to get the best offensive coordinator? I think it may be Bevells concern to make himself the best he can be, and the teams responsibility to get the best coordinator, which may not be Bevell.

 

[Seafan]

Too bad for the Hawks.

 

[plyka]

Like I said In another thread Pete has just proved that he is a great salesman, showman, and motivational speaker but He is not a great coach. The man across the field from him coaching in his sixth super bowl and winning his fourth super bowl would have fired his OC for making that call and would never have allowed a coordinator who has already taken a HC job with another team to still coach his team in the super bowl.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Pete can fix this with " honest Monday" or what ever he calls it. Its strait out of a Zig Ziglar manual.

Did I read that right? Pete is not a great coach? REALLY? Wow!! That totally blows my mind... and I think you are wrong... maybe its like everybody so hurt by this loss that they just cant see past it right now... ok Im out of here for a month or so till everyone calms down...


LTH

Pete is a pretty good coach, I don't think anyone can deny that. But he has his faults. The main one is that there are very minute places where he is outrageously out coached. Bellicheck followed the San Diego method of dinking and dunking --why didn't the Hawks change it up? At least make it so they get beat in a different way.

Pete is a great coach when it comes to being the president --motivation, overall work ethic, etc. When it comes to the minute details, he leaves it up to his positional coaches. And in this game, the offensive coordinator made the worst mistake in football history. It just was and there is no way around it. I blame Bevell, and I blame Pete for allowing it to happen. It cost the Seahawks a superbowl.

It doesn't mean Pete should be fired or even Bevell should be fired. It just means that they were responsible for the worse playcall in football history. The fact that it came in the NFL makes it the worst in football history, just because the stakes at the NFL level are so much more than college or highschool or PeeWee ball. The fact that it came in the superbowl makes it the worst in NFL and thus football history. For the Pete/Bevell supporters, there is no reason to lie. You may think he is an incredible coach, but then just admit that an incredible coach is responsible for the biggest most insane call in football history. Everyone makes mistakes, even great coaches.

i really like your words but what we have to ask ourselves (or pete has to ask himself)- ok, is someone else likely to have this level of success or greater? and also, who is more likely to succeed and or fail in those exact circumstances again in the future? did bevell evolve or is this a trend?

well, first of all i don't know how our offensive gameplans in the NFCCG and Super Bowl could have been worse. Bevell got 100 % BAILED OUT by a Foot Locker employee and one Russell Wilson. 0 gameplanning in either game led to any relevant points on the board. mcdaniels, who i really don't care for at all, absolutely embarrassed bevell's life all day long by exposing our defense while bevell came out vanilla with a side of crap. oh yeah, in all of this i think we've forgotten about the great first drive out of the half followed by a 3rd down in the red zone where bevell inexplicable calls the twins wide on each side of the field formation. so NE says ok, we'll just man up since they haven't gotten great separation all day and stack the box. yeah, great one DB.

I'm tired of him getting a pass because of the players on this team pulling plays out of their behind to make up for the fact that he is the most inconsistently efficient gamecaller around. Sure he has his days. some days my wife's dog doesn't crap on my carpet either. But there are plenty of poop days to go around, and bevell just pooped in the bed. now it's time for the doggy to go! There are plenty more, and i'm in shock anyone sincerely believes it can get worse. Prove it's always compete here in Seattle by holding your staff to the same standard as the players.

I agree with you. These players are incredible on this team. The coaching, especially Bevell, is sub-par in my opinion. Right when I saw the formation on the 2nd and goal I turned to my brother and said: WTF is he doing in the shotgun? Then I hear Pete say they passed because New England came out with the goal line defense. I thought to myself, you idiot, of course they came with the goal line defense --you are on the 1 yard line with at least 2 if not 3 plays. They have an almost zero chance to win, the only possibility of them winning is if you're stupid enough to not take the free money in front of you and attempt to do the dumbest play possible in the situation --which is pass, in the middle of the field, with a 5;10'' QB on the freakin goal line. If it's 2nd and 10 on the 50 yard line in the middle of a game, I can see the rationale --even if it's 4th and 7 in the 4th quarter --you see a matchup you like. But it's 2nd and goal from the 1 yard line --they have an almost zero chance of stopping you if you just run the ball. Even a QB sneak up the middle.

I blame it on a moment of inexplicable insanity on the part of Pete. Bevell I can see making a horrible mistake, but why Pete allowed it, we will never know.

 

[Optimus25]

"[/quote]

Again, this doesn't mean that Pete is a bad coach or that Bevell is horrible --it just means these coaches made the worst decision in football hisstory.[/quote]


i really think this a great relevant point that should be an integral part of the conversation. and just as meaningful is how likely is a repeat performance, no pun intended? in my mind, the super bowl victory last year is the one game that jumps out at me that had a lot on the line and we had a solid gameplan. other than that, our playoffs have actually been trainwrecks resurrected by the greatest "gamer" qb in the history of the NFL, let alone a solid defense. ok, also the game against the Aints, but seriously, i don't even count that defense as a legit nfl defense.

san fran NFCCG- ok, is the opening fumble bevell's fault? well, no, BUT, using my 20/20 hindsight i know the san fran speed is probably too much to think that would work play number one. we haven't even established the run yet, why would a defensive end shoot down the line and fall for playaction? otherwise, we were super slow going to start the game.

st louis rams this year to lock down #1 seed- i had to change my clothes at halftime we were so stagnant and putrid. Playing against a great defense, oh yeah. but i'm pretty sure it was the same players who Eli absolutely murdered a week prior.

green bay NFCCG- what can i say? we got our asses hand to us. All. Day. Long. (except last 3 mins)

Super Bowl Pats- Our opening series was embarassing. The patriots looked like they had their plays rehearsed, studied, readied, tested, tried and true, we looked like bevell had his opening series playcalls on a napkin written in finger paint. and it never got better until a foot locker employee went to work.

Why won't Pete address this lackluster offense in the opening parts of big games? Just because we're getting the means to the end doesn't equate to automatically that is the way it is going to be. It doesn't fit "Always Compete" whatsoever. Is there something special I'm missing about making all these games harder on ourselves due to inefficiency early?

 

[LymonHawk]

Choose your words wisely. Sometimes the messenger gets shot.

Or maybe kicked down well of darkness or something, I guess; but whatever.

You talkin' to me? :les:

I actually don't even know. Just read the title is all. More or less just entertaining myself, man. Laughter....does a crazy good.

I resemble that remark! :les:

 

[BirdsCommaAngry]

Just out of curiosity, how far has Eastern Philosophy gotten the east? Japan is the most advanced country in the East, and they aren't the first country you think about when you bring up Eastern Philosophy. Also, what's the goal here? Is the goal to make Bevell the best he can be, or to get the best offensive coordinator? I think it may be Bevells concern to make himself the best he can be, and the teams responsibility to get the best coordinator, which may not be Bevell.

It depends on how you define and measure success but whatever your preference is, you might be surprised how poorly we perform in comparison. For example, we get obliterated on a growing variety of measurements of academic ability (and that's with growth-oriented Asian-American students helping our numbers), a higher percentage of the children of Asian-American immigrants will succeed in their pursuit of managerial and technical occupations than white Americans, etc.

Of those two options, the goal is certainly both. Bevell is here and we ought to do everything we can to get the best out of him while also keeping an eye out for an upgrade. In the long run, it isn't as simple as acquiring the best coordinator available either. If the 2013 season unfolded differently, maybe we would have had the pleasure of a 2014 season with Gary Kubiak calling the shots. I imagine that his involvement would be a dream for "Bevell haters" but not without the drawback of Kubiak being so good he's again gotten himself a promotion after a single season.

I won't pretend to know if continuity has a notable value in that capacity or if that value is worth trading for a temporary upgrade if given the opportunity. What I do know is that trying to figure that out makes for a more interesting conversation than the mess that results from those who support Bevell citing our DVOA rankings, number of Superbowl appearances, and quotes from ADB and Carroll while those who want him gone list instances of jet sweeps to Walters and empty backfield sets in short yardage situations and games where pass-protection was especially poor. One side thinks we're successful offensively partly because of Bevell and the other thinks we're successful despite Bevell. It's a dead, well-beaten horse.

 

[Vetamur]

First, to head off the attacks.. I agree the last play call was bad. I disagree it should have been a run. Throw there and you still have two more plays and your time out if its incomplete. I disagree with the actual play call. This had to be a play action and maybe a naked boot leg with a throw option to Willson, or something. The best call isnt a call hoping that Lockette beats the guy to the spot. But I do see the logic. I think its less bad today watching the "vine" over and over than I did yesterday. On the replay it totally looks like its going to be a touchdown. But Lockette does lose the "eye of the tiger" contest to their DB. He shouldnt have been in that position anyway.. but it cant be denied.

Anyway.. on to the OP.. Bevell isnt going anywhere. Of course he isnt.

He has done a lot that Im not sure people are thinking about:

He has agreed to an unconventional situation where he is OC, but only MOSTLY OC, as Cable is in charge of the run game. And Cable is not the easiest guy to get along with , but theyve made that work.

He is in charge of the passing game, and has given us one that is fine, despite having all free agent Wide Receivers, a starting tight end who was meant to be our #3 and back up tight ends that werent on the team in September.

He got us to #9 offense this year with that Island of Misfit Toys receiving corps, an average at best offensive line, and despite having to switch offenses mid-season when getting rid of Harvin.

He has helped develop Wilson, and installed the read option and uses at just about the right level most of the time..to the point where really, no one else is still using it much because they couldnt get it to work..but we run it to perfection. He and the QB coach had to work with Wilson to do that, as Wilson hadnt run it before.

We are going to ..what? Fire him when all the other teams have already done their hiring.. give Wilson a new system to learn..?

Name another OC that has done so much with so few of the teams resources devoted to his side of the ball.

Yes..he had a Scott Norwood moment. We WILL be talking about it in 20 years. But its not unfixable even. The team needs meetings in the offseason..between players and coaches to let things out, between coaches and coordinators. A lot of stuff will go on behind the scenes on this one.

We see so little of what goes on. Bevell will learn. Carroll will learn. Wilson will learn. I would make a decent bet that one thing that comes out of this is next year Wilson gets more authority in choosing plays and putting together the play book..and more authority to audible out of ANY play he doesnt like.