Broad jump is the key to everything on the OL

[penihawk]

How are these numbers supposed to meaningfully add up to something above 70? Obviously you can't convert the broad jump to inches because then everyone would be well over 70. But if you keep it as feet, then it's insignificant compared to bench and vertical.

Kirwan's test is flawed because it diminishes the broad jump. You don't get the kudos of a 9-7 vs a 8-5. It's basically a 1.2 point advantage despite a significantly better attempt. He'd be better off awarding points per bracket (9-0 to 9-2 = 20 points, 9-3 to 9-5 = 25, 9-6 to 9-8 = 30 etc).

That said, I still think it's interesting to use it to compare Seattle's recent draftees to this years group. And it emphasised some important date -- such as Cody Whitehair's explosive score being substantially lower than anyone they've drafted since 2012.

Not trying to troll you here because I enjoy your writings but do you have evidence that this simple explosion formula originated from Pat and not Pete when they worked together over 20 years ago? I listen to the man everyday and I don't think he has ever taken credit for this being his idea but he does give credit to Pete and others for how he sees the game and its personnel a lot.

I respect your opinions but I think we are trying to take simple addition and turn it into a four page physics equation here. I think it's meant to just establish a "Mendoza" line of explosion/athleticism and not a clear cut number to set your draft board by much like Sparq. I've heard Pat say a million times all these things ultimately lead you back to the tape to dig deeper. If we just followed numbers we would still be lookin for a QB.

 

[Largent80]

All of this is great reading but makes me ponder a thought.

A bunch of us, myself included are clamoring for a legit center in the draft, and I pretty much forgot about Sokoli being on the active roster for the whole year. Do any of you think they may already be thinking about avoiding C in the draft and let Sokoli compete for the job?

 

[sc85sis]

Breno, McQ, and Gallery all had short arms (all had good broad jumps too). Generally speaking though Seattle has shown a strong preference for arm length.

Most of the offensive lineman Seattle have drafted have had average or worse bench press repetitions. This makes sense given that in order to be explosive you generally need to weight less, and you would expect lighter players to bench less. Longer arms impede bench press too.

Vertical jump has been a strong indicator but there are exceptions, like Justin Britt's 27.5" vert.

Seattle seems to have an absolute rule that corners cannot have arms shorter than 32". Broad Jump comes the closest to being that kind of rule for the OL. Every guy they've brought in since this current OL experiment began has killed it in the broad jump with the minor exception of Gallery who was 8'9" (which is hardly terrible).

I don't think Seattle would draft only for broad jump but I do think they would scratch a guy off their board if he didn't have enough of it, whereas if a guy had a bad forty, bad vert, bad bench, it could be compensated for.

I can't speak to Pete's or John's feelings on bench press, but Chris Carlisle thinks bench is mostly pointless. He's all about explosion.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

All of this is great reading but makes me ponder a thought.

A bunch of us, myself included are clamoring for a legit center in the draft, and I pretty much forgot about Sokoli being on the active roster for the whole year. Do any of you think they may already be thinking about avoiding C in the draft and let Sokoli compete for the job?

And has anyone heard anything about how far along Sokoli is in his development? Like you Rob, I've been clamoring for a C in this draft. If one isn't drafted, it may indicate that he's close to being ready to step into the starter role.

 

[McGruff]

I think they are very high on Sokoli making the jump.I'd be interested to hear an interview with Cable and Sokoli on the matter.

Must of the time the tape backs up the raw data. So it's not like they are independent of one another. Explosive players tend to exhibit explosion. Others, like Boehm and Kelly, compensate wit intelligence and technique.

What the data does is two things. First, it expands your possibilities as small school players and non-combine players test. That leads you back to the tape. Second, it brings to light explosive players who maybe didn't exhibit explosion . . . Which leads you back to the tape. Is it scheme? Is it coaching? Or does the player just not have the instinct? Ifedi and Spriggs are good examples of players that test explosively but need evaluation on why they don't show explosion on tape.

 

[McGruff]

There are also reverse exceptions. Josh Garnett is a good example. He didn't test well, but watch his tape and he is a drive blocking master.

 

[jammerhawk]

I'm sure broad jump is key factor in assessing the physical parameters of players the team would consider as is arm length and the other 30-9-27 parameters. I doubt it's a hard and fast rule that permits no exceptions though. It is interesting to observe that the team h as preferred these parameters as a base for selection.

Totally agree about Garnett who may lack in physical parameters but is a gritty blocker with experience in a pro style O.

Will be very interested to see who they pick but doubt the selections will all necessarily fit into the parameters.

 

[cover-2]

Rob just found the decoder ring in his cereal box.

:229031_cheers:

That was a great article by Rob!

 

[kearly]

There are also reverse exceptions. Josh Garnett is a good example. He didn't test well, but watch his tape and he is a drive blocking master.

Now lets see if they actually draft him. I bet you they won't.

It's worth mentioning that Garnett is a local kid and a pretty big Hawks fan. Might have just been doing something nice for a kid and creating a smokescreen in the process.

 

[kearly]

I'm sure broad jump is key factor in assessing the physical parameters of players the team would consider as is arm length and the other 30-9-27 parameters. I doubt it's a hard and fast rule that permits no exceptions though. .

Since 2012, every single player they've drafted is 9' or more on broad jump. It's been absolute, whereas bench, vert, arm length have not.

We know from other positions that Seattle has certain traits that they consider absolute, such as 32" arms on corners. The evidence seems to suggest that such a rule also exists for OL and broad jump.

The funny thing is, Tom Cable did draft exactly one OL with a sub-9' broad jump, and that was John Moffitt in 2011. Moffitt was in Cable's doghouse from day one and was a plodder on the field. I wouldn't be surprised if Cable's emphasis on the broad jump stemmed from his deep regrets over the John Moffitt selection.

 

[Hawkscanner]

OK, I've got a lot of thoughts on all of this. Rob, Kearly, Scott, Chris, whomever else -- feel free to chime in,

I understand Cable's overall philosophy and agree with it to an extent. Due to the overall state of College Football and the lack of real physically talented, fundamentally sound Offensive Lineman coming in to the NFL, the Seahawks see themselves in a bit of a quandry. Basically, draft established, less physically talented Offensive Linemen with experience and fundamental flaws that they will have to undo and re-teach ... OR draft more physically talented Defensive Linemen who have all the measureables, start from scratch, have no flaws to have to undo, and teach them the right way.

You want guys who are great athletes, who are strong, quick, explosive, etc.

Granted. I get all of that.

BUT, as Chris so aptly pointed out Holmgren used to stress SMARTS with his Offensive Linemen. He wanted guys who not only had nastiness ... but had smarts and were savvy.

In basketball, I can school younger, more physically talented players simply because I know tricks that they don't yet. Old age and treachery will beat youth and skill every time. And ultimate success in the the NFL is very much like that. It takes more than physical talent -- it's technique and all of the little tricks of the trade (that only experience and/or more experienced players and coaches can teach you) that separates those who make it from those who don't.

And the problem is that all of that takes ... TIME. It takes time to learn technique and all of those tricks ... to become even an average competent NFL player takes time for rookies who have been playing a position for awhile ... let alone someone who has never played it.

Herein lies my question when it comes to the Seahawks and the Offensive Line. I get it. There's a salary cap. We have to skimp in some areas to feast in others. But if the Seahawks plan is honestly to go in to training camp with the idea of having Patrick Lewis and Kristjan Sokoli battle it out for the Center position, then I have really have to wonder about that. Here are my biggest questions when it comes to the line:

1) Given that it can be argued that an offense's overall success is built from the inside out, can Seattle honestly afford to continue to go the train your own from scratch route? Not only are the Aaron Donalds, Kawaan Shorts, and Star Lotuleleis of the world going to continue to blow up the offense ... but Russell Wilson is going to get killed.

2) It takes time to really master things in the NFL (and it takes much longer for someone who has never played the position before). By the time Sokoli and/or Lewis progress to the point that they are basically NFL average players, how long will we honestly have them before losing them to free agency? Perfect example of that -- J.R. Sweezy. By the time the Seahawks get Player X to the point they they want them to be ... they're losing all of their hard work to another team and having to train the next project. Basically, this seems to me like a real losing battle.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[kearly]

I'd much rather have OL with good tape than ones with good athleticism, but ultimately my opinion doesn't mean dick and I don't get to decide anything, so I just let it go. Otherwise I'd go crazy.

We have very little influence or power to make a difference in those areas. But what we can do is attempt to predict the moves that PCJS will make. So at least that way, when they draft the next James Carpenter or Justin Britt, at least it won't feel like it came out of left field.

 

[Subzero717]

I'm sure broad jump is key factor in assessing the physical parameters of players the team would consider as is arm length and the other 30-9-27 parameters. I doubt it's a hard and fast rule that permits no exceptions though. .

Since 2012, every single player they've drafted is 9' or more on broad jump. It's been absolute, whereas bench, vert, arm length have not.

We know from other positions that Seattle has certain traits that they consider absolute, such as 32" arms on corners. The evidence seems to suggest that such a rule also exists for OL and broad jump.

The funny thing is, Tom Cable did draft exactly one OL with a sub-9' broad jump, and that was John Moffitt in 2011. Moffitt was in Cable's doghouse from day one and was a plodder on the field. I wouldn't be surprised if Cable's emphasis on the broad jump stemmed from his deep regrets over the John Moffitt selection.

Moffit had a drug problem and seemed to like being on Real Rob Report and 710 more than studying and being in the weight room. Im not possitive but I think that had more to do with it than anything.

 

[NYCoug]

There may be hope still that the Seahawks are scrapping their reliance on things like Sparq and Broad Jump, etc on the OLine. The two dudes they brought in off the FA market this year, Sowell and Webb, broad jumped an 8'6" and 8'5", respectively. Hopefully they keep an open mind during the draft because it seems ironic to me that the team who employs the league's shortest QB who defied all odds, would have such a strict requirement to be a part of one of the worst OL's in the league.

All the talk about "Moneyballing the OL", well the A's never actually won anything, despite their innovative ways. Being innovative is cool and all, but it doesnt mean jack if you cant pull it off. Just ask the Oregon Ducks. Balance is the key. Fundamentals, instincts, grit, toughness, athleticism, explosiveness should all be a part of the equation, in an ideal world.

Let's see how it all plays out!

 

[Subzero717]

^ I hope you're right Coug. I say that because while not drafted by the current regime, Unger IMO has been the best lineman that Cable has coached here and his broad jump was only 7.09.

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

All of this is great reading but makes me ponder a thought.

A bunch of us, myself included are clamoring for a legit center in the draft, and I pretty much forgot about Sokoli being on the active roster for the whole year. Do any of you think they may already be thinking about avoiding C in the draft and let Sokoli compete for the job?

And has anyone heard anything about how far along Sokoli is in his development? Like you Rob, I've been clamoring for a C in this draft. If one isn't drafted, it may indicate that he's close to being ready to step into the starter role.

Pete mentioned him in his post season presser. He basically indicated he wasn't ready and would need another year.

 

[chris98251]

I want to use Chris Gray as an example.

Although he never made it into the Pro Bowl, he was an integral part of the offensive line that blocked for Matt Hasselbeck and Shaun Alexander during their five consecutive playoff appearances (2003–2007), including Alexander's MVP year in 2005. He was also on the 1999 AFC West Champion Seahawks. During his career with the Seahawks, he played every position on the their offensive line.

NFL draft:
1993 / Round: 5 / Pick: 132

Four-year letterman and two-year starter at Auburn. Second-team All-American and first-team all-SEC selection as a senior. Also earned all-SEC academic honors. Played left tackle as a junior and senior starting every game. Split time between tackle and tight end in first two seasons. Received a B.S. Degree in Marketing.

Here is a link to the rest of his playing history and bio, I could not find his scouting report coming out of college though.

http://prod.www.seahawks.clubs.nfl.com/team/roster/chris-gray/98e3354a-dfba-46b3-9abd-d55179be891f/

Suffice it to say he may not have been all world athletically but he sure was a blue collar lineman and did it all and did it well, the biggest aspect is he was a smart guy, made calls for Centers playing other positions on the line.

This is what I think Cable is really looking for but is putting the athlete ahead of the brain and drive.

 

[TeamoftheCentury]

There may be hope still that the Seahawks are scrapping their reliance on things like Sparq and Broad Jump, etc on the OLine. The two dudes they brought in off the FA market this year, Sowell and Webb, broad jumped an 8'6" and 8'5", respectively. Hopefully they keep an open mind during the draft because it seems ironic to me that the team who employs the league's shortest QB who defied all odds, would have such a strict requirement to be a part of one of the worst OL's in the league.

All the talk about "Moneyballing the OL", well the A's never actually won anything, despite their innovative ways. Being innovative is cool and all, but it doesnt mean jack if you cant pull it off. Just ask the Oregon Ducks. Balance is the key. Fundamentals, instincts, grit, toughness, athleticism, explosiveness should all be a part of the equation, in an ideal world.

Let's see how it all plays out!

Here, here! Excellent post, NYCoug. Very well said. There's no doubt that SPARQ is a significant assessment and decision tool for the Hawks. So, I got no problem with all the discussion on all that. But, there are things that can't get measured. You can't crack open a kids chest to find out how bad he wants it. (IIRC, Wilson checked all the boxes except for the "prototypical height" and was dismissed by many to their own detriment.)

Hawkscanner has a point, too. Some of these SPARQ'd up guys are more like projects. Just can't be wise to rely on the data of the "Underwear Olympics" to the point of passing on a guy that is just an outright player. I agree with Kearly that "tape" should be the primary indicator.

PC overwhelmingly communicates focus on finding players that are going to fit the chemistry of the team and "grit" is the encompassing term that seems to be the #1 trait they are looking for in the players they want to add to the mix. That seems more an art than science.

Go Hawks.

 

[Hawkscanner]

All of this is great reading but makes me ponder a thought.

A bunch of us, myself included are clamoring for a legit center in the draft, and I pretty much forgot about Sokoli being on the active roster for the whole year. Do any of you think they may already be thinking about avoiding C in the draft and let Sokoli compete for the job?

And has anyone heard anything about how far along Sokoli is in his development? Like you Rob, I've been clamoring for a C in this draft. If one isn't drafted, it may indicate that he's close to being ready to step into the starter role.

Pete mentioned him in his post season presser. He basically indicated he wasn't ready and would need another year.

If that's true that Sokoli needs another year to redshirt, then that even more highlights the potential issues with the entire Defensive Line to Offensive Line conversion strategy. Here's a scenario I could easily see playing out ...

Let's say that's true -- that while Sokoli gets some playing time in Preseason, he basically spends the entire 2016 season on the bench, as he's still in the process of learning the tricks of the trade. By the end of the 2016 season, let's say that the coaching staff has seen enough to believe he warrants a legitimate shot to compete for the starting Center position next season. Let's say that he wins the job in training camp and while he ends up playing at an NFL mediocre level in 2017, he flashes potential that he could actually be pretty good given more playing time. The next year in 2018, Sokoli starts to come in to his own and shows that he has the stuff to be something really special in the NFL (let's say he's even named to the Pro Bowl). Well guess what? Sokoli's a free agent in 2019. As the Seahawks have a lot of their cap money tied up in the defense and Russell Wilson (and rightfully so), they don't want to get in to a bidding war with other teams who will happily pay him $6 to $7 million a season. So, they again let another one of their draft choices walk away for a compensatory pick -- after only 2 effective years of service. They have in essence invested their blood, sweat, and tears -- their hard work and energy so that he can star for ANOTHER team (not the Seahawks). They are again back at square one with either having to sign or trade for an established Center, draft a plug and play Center, or draft another athletic but inexperienced player that they have to train all over again.

This is why I'm hoping beyond hope that the Seahawks do the unthinkable ... and actually choose to draft a Center this year (like a Ryan Kelly) who can come in and start from day one. The alternative would have me (and a lot of other Hawks fans) banging our heads against the wall.

 

[Largent80]

The bottom line is what we have seen and has been described here. We draft "projects", and in doing so have to wait for development that may or may not transpire. Meanwhile that project is taking up a valuable roster spot.

Then we lose said player a couple years later. If we keep this up we will never have a decent O-Line.