Cliff Avril checks in on where things went wrong

[Hawker8989]

Every freakin season one team wins and one team loses... Last season the Pats lost. You don’t think they will be back? Do you think they will waste entire seasons dwelling on it? Or do you think they’ll put on their big boy pants and get on with it? History says the later. The problem isn’t the freaking play or that the defense coughed up a lead. The problem is that our mental midgets couldn’t get over it and get on with it and it took our management too long to recognize and account for. I appreciate that those players helped bring a super owl and got us to the edge of a second. Their me first attitudes destroyed entire seasons afterwards. Now we will see if our coaching staff and front office are up to the task of setting things back on track or if it’s time to clean house there as well.

The Patriots didnt lose due to a historically bad play call and they didnt retain a coach that publicly threw a player under the bus instead of taking personal responsibility afterwards either. Its easy to see how some players can take that to heart and feel resentment. I dont think any team could have put that behind them like some suggest. Seattle sure couldnt.

What about not putting Butler in the game when their D is getting shredded? You don't possibly think the Eagles still convert 12 of 13 first downs on 3rd down do you? More a general question.

My point is that you've got to move on. It was over three years ago now. It happened. The fact players let it affect them this much says a lot about their mental mindset..or lack thereof.

 

[olyfan63]

Blowing a 10 pt lead to the Patriots is not a tough thing to do for any team given the fact it is the Patriots...they play in this game every other year it seems and always find a way to win or at least keep it close. The injuries on defence did not help. Sherman was already injured with his elbow...we lost Lane in the first quarter for which he was never the same after and lost Avril to a concussion which hurt the pass rush. Everyone knows to beat Brady you need to get in his face since he is one of the most immobile QBs ever. The fact we had to play that overrated pos tharold simon was a huge turning point. He was exposed for the garbage player he always was. Also on offence the Kearse drop was a severe game changer. He gets that and the play is null and void. Yes he makes a fluke never give up catch on the final drive that if they scored goes down as one of the greatest ever. Overall though Kearse was a let down as a number 2 wr and in the last two games that year it really showed. Horrible clock management after this throw and Pete and co dont know what to do it seems. It was almost like they expected Bellicheat to take a timeout which he did not. They run Lynch who almost damn well gets it in and then the play that destroyed the team. I agree that Kearse didnt do his job yet again and the the throw was slightly off and to the wrong receiver. It should of been a Lynch run or fake to Lynch and Wilson run. Doesn't work...there was still plenty of time for another play. Pete got outcoached when it mattered the most. Blame Bevell too but Pete can override any play. After this game his message was lost and the egos started to surface. I still think this team maybe gets a 3rd sb before their time is up but now we are suddenly in a rebuild situation with no draft stock for the guys that left. The play changed everything. Up until the play however I still think it was one of the best super bowl games in history.

Nice post but on the injuries you forget Kam was playing on one leg(bad knee) and Earl(seperated shoulder) it was stuff of toughness that all three even played in that game.
So during game we lose 2 starters to go with the 3 already playing hurt and we still were in the game..
That alone speaks for itself!

Hurray, the first poster to mention Tharald "Toast" Simon! He got absolutely used by Brady and the Pats' quick WRs. In his defense, he was playing with a bum shoulder. So why was he out there playing? Because CARROLL made our only other slot corner, Marcus Burley, INACTIVE for the game, a HEALTHY SCRATCH. Simon active? Burley sits? Ridiculous! We were so thin at CB.

Kind of like in 2005 the Hawks lost FS Marquand Manuel to injury, we put a "man off the street", Etric Pruitt, in to replace him, and that was a key, key factor in their loss to the Steelers. Maybe a different result even.

 

[metwelve]

Many consider this the worst play call in NFL history (I don't). That will NEVER stop getting talked about.

This is the worst playcall in NFL history.

LMAO :white_flag:

 

[ivotuk]

Yet another defensive player blaming the offense, when the only reason we were in a position to win was because of some SPECTACULAR plays by the offense, such as Jermaine Kearse's miraculous catch!

They conveniently forget the facts though, when they don't fit the storyline.

 

[The Breh]

Avril saying Pete lost the team after going away from our identity at the worst time possible and posters in here calling the players wrong for feeling like that, to shut up, and it was their fault for giving up the lead.
If anybody has insight into the situation it's him, not you.
All while playing 3/4 injured in the DB, Lane broke his shit in 2, Avril-whom the damn thread is about...injured in the first half and never to return. Also while the O was putting an injured and key pieces missing D RIGHT BACK on the field with shitty play calling resulting in a couple 3 and outs and minimal time for them to rest.
And culminating with a pass at the 1 for God knows why at the time.
Y'all never seen Varsity Blues ? The closest thing to seeing inside a locker room in many moon. Coach lose a team there's no turning back.
Don't pretend like shit is magically and suddenly sweet after a grueling season, NFCC, and then SB.

I think some of y'all feel overly entitled when it comes to telling people how to turn off human emotions like they're machines.
And especially when it comes to the phrase "get over it".

 

[pittpnthrs]

when the only reason we were in a position to win was because of some SPECTACULAR plays by the offense, such as Jermaine Kearse's miraculous catch!

They conveniently forget the facts though, when they don't fit the storyline.

If Kearse makes the easy catch that was right in his hands earlier, we wouldnt have had to depend on that spectacular catch. Plenty of the blame should be directed towards the offense.

 

[sc85sis]

I’m not blaming the players for feeling that way in the immediate aftermath of that game. I am blaming them for STILL bringing it up three freaking years later and running to the press with it. Get over it already.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Exactly, they lost this game as a TEAM. As Pitt mentioned, that drop by butterfingers Kearse was huge. Plenty of blame to go around. But dwelling on it years later for the team is weak.

 

[Donn2390]

Avril was there and echoes what others have said.

Nuff said.

Avril was saying that a number of the players are not men, but spoiled, immature children who wish to place the blame elsewhere.
Perhaps some of these so called "STARS" should have been gone long ago. This season will be a breath of fresh air with the attitudes gone. The Seahawks made the stars, the stars didn't make the Seahawks.

 

[Seymour]

Avril was there and echoes what others have said.

Nuff said.

Avril was saying that a number of the players are not men, but spoiled, immature children who wish to place the blame elsewhere.
Perhaps some of these so called "STARS" should have been gone long ago. This season will be a breath of fresh air with the attitudes gone. The Seahawks made the stars, the stars didn't make the Seahawks.

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Excellent phrase to remember! Agree 100%. At least on several players that is the case.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Avril was there and echoes what others have said.

Nuff said.

It's much easier to blame the demise and underachievement of one of the most talented rosters in the history of the NFL on one playcall, than it is to look in the mirror and see that maybe it was more the players not being mentally and emotionally tough and mature enough to recommit and win another SB or two.

 

[jlwaters1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we run that exact play to Lockette earlier in the year, and it worked?

If memory serves, we did run that exact play earlier in the year with Lockette and that was the reason Butler was ready for it. He got burned in practice the week leading up to the SB when NE was running that very play and heard about it loud and clear. So when he saw the formation in the SB he knew precisely what to do and where to be. That's why it looked so incredible.

He literally saw it coming.

And yet if the ball was thrown just 1 foot more inside it's either a TD or incompletion and there would have been nothing Butler could have done about it. (Or if Lockette would have attacked the ball instead of waiting for it like he did- the same result would have happened. )

The only Reason Butler was able to make the play was because of the lackadaisical effort of Lockette and Russell throwing too nice of a pass (he lead him perfectly.)

 

[AROS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we run that exact play to Lockette earlier in the year, and it worked?

If memory serves, we did run that exact play earlier in the year with Lockette and that was the reason Butler was ready for it. He got burned in practice the week leading up to the SB when NE was running that very play and heard about it loud and clear. So when he saw the formation in the SB he knew precisely what to do and where to be. That's why it looked so incredible.

He literally saw it coming.

And yet if the ball was thrown just 1 foot more inside it's either a TD or incompletion and there would have been nothing Butler could have done about it. (Or if Lockette would have attacked the ball instead of waiting for it like he did- the same result would have happened. )

The only Reason Butler was able to make the play was because of the lackadaisical effort of Lockette and Russell throwing too nice of a pass (he lead him perfectly.)

Agreed on both accounts. It wasn't a "bad" pass in the traditional sense but Lockette was way too complacent in his effort to catch the ball. Granted, he wasn't aware that Butler was a heat-seeking missile about to historically snag it away to secure the win but I am still flabbergasted that we threw it to him on that play. Baldwin much?

I have never thought that loss came down to just one thing, one player or one play. It was the combination of injuries on defense that helped dissolve a 10 point lead in the 4th, and a play call that was head-scratching to begin with that was poorly executed by multiple players.

I am still FAR more bitter over XL* than I ever will be over XLIX. At least the latter was an incredible game, considered to be one of the best in Super Bowl history while the former was a complete travesty and inside job slanted from the start to guarantee one particular outcome.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Every freakin season one team wins and one team loses... Last season the Pats lost. You don’t think they will be back? Do you think they will waste entire seasons dwelling on it? Or do you think they’ll put on their big boy pants and get on with it? History says the later. The problem isn’t the freaking play or that the defense coughed up a lead. The problem is that our mental midgets couldn’t get over it and get on with it and it took our management too long to recognize and account for. I appreciate that those players helped bring a super owl and got us to the edge of a second. Their me first attitudes destroyed entire seasons afterwards. Now we will see if our coaching staff and front office are up to the task of setting things back on track or if it’s time to clean house there as well.

The Patriots didnt lose due to a historically bad play call and they didnt retain a coach that publicly threw a player under the bus instead of taking personal responsibility afterwards either. Its easy to see how some players can take that to heart and feel resentment. I dont think any team could have put that behind them like some suggest. Seattle sure couldnt.

BINGO!

 

[hawknation2018]

Avril was there and echoes what others have said.

Nuff said.

Avril was saying that a number of the players are not men, but spoiled, immature children who wish to place the blame elsewhere.
Perhaps some of these so called "STARS" should have been gone long ago. This season will be a breath of fresh air with the attitudes gone. The Seahawks made the stars, the stars didn't make the Seahawks.

:2thumbs: :2thumbs:
Excellent phrase to remember! Agree 100%. At least on several players that is the case.

#1 credit for that goes to Pete Carroll for his early scouting and player development.

Great coaches help make good players great.

 

[Sports Hernia]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we run that exact play to Lockette earlier in the year, and it worked?

If memory serves, we did run that exact play earlier in the year with Lockette and that was the reason Butler was ready for it. He got burned in practice the week leading up to the SB when NE was running that very play and heard about it loud and clear. So when he saw the formation in the SB he knew precisely what to do and where to be. That's why it looked so incredible.

He literally saw it coming.

And yet if the ball was thrown just 1 foot more inside it's either a TD or incompletion and there would have been nothing Butler could have done about it. (Or if Lockette would have attacked the ball instead of waiting for it like he did- the same result would have happened. )

The only Reason Butler was able to make the play was because of the lackadaisical effort of Lockette and Russell throwing too nice of a pass (he lead him perfectly.)

Disagree with the only reason statement. Browner recongnized what play was coming from the formation, he told Butler exactly where the pass was going. Which makes the play call worse than it normally would have been.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Disagree with the only reason statement. Browner recongnized what play was coming from the formation, he told Butler exactly where the pass was going. Which makes the play call worse than it normally would have been.

How many times does a defender or defense on a great play say they knew it was coming? 98% of the time? 100% of the time?

IMO the Hawks running that play ONE time the entire year leads me to believe there was some rubbing of the salt into the wounds hyperbole by Browner and some other Patriot defenders saying "oh yeah, we knew it was coming."

Shocking that the defender doesn't say a peep when he gets beat and he knew it was coming.

 

[hawknation2018]

Disagree with the only reason statement. Browner recongnized what play was coming from the formation, he told Butler exactly where the pass was going. Which makes the play call worse than it normally would have been.

How many times does a defender or defense on a great play say they knew it was coming? 98% of the time? 100% of the time?

IMO the Hawks running that play ONE time the entire year leads me to believe there was some rubbing of the salt into the wounds hyperbole by Browner and some other Patriot defenders saying "oh yeah, we knew it was coming."

Shocking that the defender doesn't say a peep when he gets beat and he knew it was coming.

The Seahawks ran a similar play before during the regular season. Belichick specifically practiced for that play in the lead up to the Super Bowl, coaching Malcolm Butler on how to read that play and break on the ball.

Belichick's greatest stroke of genius, though, was ignoring his assistant coach's request for a timeout to preserve time on the clock. Choosing NOT to call a timeout cut the Seahawks playbook in half. Bevell admitted that they chose a quick pass play because they wanted to run enough time off the clock, in case they scored on the play, and they wanted to quickly stop the clock if the play wasn't successful, so they would have enough time for the maximum three plays.

That is the genius of Belichick, going against customary coaching wisdom to put more pressure on his opponent, make the opponent more predictable, and force the opponent away from their greatest strength (power running) and his own team's greatest weakness (short yardage and goal line defense).

If Belichick does NOT call a timeout there, the Seahawks almost certainly would have run the ball because (1) even if the play was unsuccessful, the Seahawks would have wanted to run more time off the clock before the next play, and (2) running Marshawn Lynch was the Seahawks' highest probability of success.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Disagree with the only reason statement. Browner recongnized what play was coming from the formation, he told Butler exactly where the pass was going. Which makes the play call worse than it normally would have been.

How many times does a defender or defense on a great play say they knew it was coming? 98% of the time? 100% of the time?

IMO the Hawks running that play ONE time the entire year leads me to believe there was some rubbing of the salt into the wounds hyperbole by Browner and some other Patriot defenders saying "oh yeah, we knew it was coming."

Shocking that the defender doesn't say a peep when he gets beat and he knew it was coming.

The Seahawks ran the play before during the regular season. Belichick specifically practiced for that play in the lead up to the Super Bowl, coaching Malcolm Butler on how to read that play and break on the ball.

Belichick's greatest stroke of genius, though, was ignoring his assistant coach's request for a timeout to preserve time on the clock. Choosing NOT to call a timeout cut the Seahawks playbook in half. Bevell admitted that they chose a quick pass play because they wanted to run enough time off the clock, in case they scored on the play, and they wanted to quickly stop the clock if the play wasn't successful, so they would have enough time for the maximum three plays.

That is the genius of Belichick, going against customary coaching wisdom to put more pressure on his opponent, make the opponent more predictable, and force the opponent away from their greatest strength (power running) and his own team's greatest weakness (shot yardage and goal line defense).

Even if they did know the play was coming, if Kearse gets off Browner to make the pick, we win. If Unger doesn't hike the ball low, we win. If Russell doesn't throw the ball high, we win. If Lockette does a better job shielding Butler out, we win.

That's football, it's equal parts playcall, and equal parts execution.

Too much time is spent hyper focusing on this playcall, and not enough on the terrible execution.

 

[hawknation2018]

Disagree with the only reason statement. Browner recongnized what play was coming from the formation, he told Butler exactly where the pass was going. Which makes the play call worse than it normally would have been.

How many times does a defender or defense on a great play say they knew it was coming? 98% of the time? 100% of the time?

IMO the Hawks running that play ONE time the entire year leads me to believe there was some rubbing of the salt into the wounds hyperbole by Browner and some other Patriot defenders saying "oh yeah, we knew it was coming."

Shocking that the defender doesn't say a peep when he gets beat and he knew it was coming.

The Seahawks ran the play before during the regular season. Belichick specifically practiced for that play in the lead up to the Super Bowl, coaching Malcolm Butler on how to read that play and break on the ball.

Belichick's greatest stroke of genius, though, was ignoring his assistant coach's request for a timeout to preserve time on the clock. Choosing NOT to call a timeout cut the Seahawks playbook in half. Bevell admitted that they chose a quick pass play because they wanted to run enough time off the clock, in case they scored on the play, and they wanted to quickly stop the clock if the play wasn't successful, so they would have enough time for the maximum three plays.

That is the genius of Belichick, going against customary coaching wisdom to put more pressure on his opponent, make the opponent more predictable, and force the opponent away from their greatest strength (power running) and his own team's greatest weakness (shot yardage and goal line defense).

Even if they did know the play was coming, if Kearse gets off Browner to make the pick, we win. If Unger doesn't hike the ball low, we win. If Russell doesn't throw the ball high, we win. If Lockette does a better job shielding Butler out, we win.

That's football, it's equal parts playcall, and equal parts execution.

Too much time is spent hyper focusing on this playcall, and not enough on the terrible execution.

All of that was predictable. Browner was the most physical corner in the NFL. Unger had low snaps all the time. Lockette had very limited experience as a receiver. Not anticipating these things is where the criticism is warranted.