Did we have time to run it 4 times??? Media says no...

[Tokadub]

So I keep hearing every "expert" analyst claim that throwing on 2nd down was in fact a viable strategy because we simply did not have time to run the ball on all 4 downs...

I'll be honest I am not an expert in football although I'm trying my best to have the precise analysis/conclusions whenever I post... I never played football beyond a casual level. But I am a bit OCD... and I do over analyze the heck out of the Seahawks because I love the team...

So can someone who is more experienced and knowledgeable with running the ball during a "hurry up offense situation" give us a definitive answer whether we could of ran the ball 4 times??? Did we really need to throw the ball on 2nd down, or was that just our coaches trying to make an excuse for the worst play call and worst coaching execution in Super Bowl History?

Once again I'm not an expert and I haven't studied specifically how fast the "fast tempo offenses" are able to run plays. But to me it seems like there is no doubt that if our coaches did their job correctly we could of ran 4 rushing plays.

Because I'm not an expert I want to hear other opinions or facts... it seems like every single media guy I've listened to (been listening 24/7 since the game) has been saying we didn't have time to run the ball 4 times. I'm not sure if they are just lazy with their attention to detail or if they are following a dictated narrative straight from the front office of the NFL but to me it seems like every single media guy is wrong and we in fact could of ran it 4 times if we desired to.

Here is my immediate reaction last night to this situation, feel free to debunk my analysis or give it to us straight. I feel like this whole thing is a mess and nobody has really definitively answered this question which in my opinion is extremely important to understanding the magnitude of this coaching error.


http://www.seahawks.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=108009&start=50

1) After Jermaine Kearse's miracle catch we call a timeout with 1:06 remaining. We have 1st down at the 5 yard line with another timeout remaining. Time would never be an issue in this scenario whether you throw or run unless your coaches totally goof things up like they did.


2) During the timeout they decided to go with the smart play of running Marshawn Lynch, what they failed to do is to predetermine what they should do on 2nd and maybe even 3rd down (if necessary)... they did not seem to be in any way prepared to save their final timeout for 4th down.

So despite Carroll saying that they were well aware of the situation, based on the simple math involved with the time here what they did was completely opposite of understanding the situation.

The most likely outcome of Lynch running on 1st and 5 was either a touchdown or less than 2 yards to go. The coaches should of anticipated this and told the players if we gain yards on this first down quickly run again with Lynch on 2nd down!


3) Instead of being prepared to quickly run Lynch again (or possibly a QB sneak or designed run) on 2nd down the Seahawks were as slow as they could possibly be... they used the entire 40 seconds (play clock limit)... if they had adequately prepared with their timeout on the previous play there is no reason why they should of ran 40 seconds off the clock.

The Eagles average a play every 20 seconds or so for an ENTIRE GAME right??? So why were the Seahawks in this situation not ready to run the ball on 2nd and 1 when they called a timeout just 1 play ago... it blows my mind...


4) Instead the brilliant Bevell takes 40 seconds off the clock and still decides to call the worst play in NFL history!!!


5) If the Seahawks were prepared to win the game this scenario should of played out like this (and I'm just assuming it goes all the way to 4th down even though Lynch probably scores on 2nd or 3rd for us):

- 1st down Lynch runs with 1:06 remaining
- 2nd down Lynch runs with 40 seconds remaining
- 3rd down Lynch runs with 15 seconds remaining
- Call a timeout with 5 seconds remaining
- 4th down Lynch runs with 5 seconds remaining and we win/lose on this play



Conclusion:

As another poster said Lynch was up after the first down play around the 1 minute mark... this means we just had to run 2 more plays in the next 50 seconds which would easily give us enough time to call our final timeout before our 4th down and leaving the Patriots with no time left.

It's not like our slow offensive line was gonna have to run potentially 80 yards down-field during this series... we were sitting on the 1 yard line there is no excuse to be so slow between plays...

As this ESPN article simply explains there are several teams that average ENTIRE GAMES running plays in under 25 seconds:

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/87601/inside-slant-plays-and-time-of-possession

1. Buffalo Bills (21.8)
2. Denver Broncos (23.2)
3. Philadelphia Eagles (23.3)
4. Baltimore Ravens (24.4)
5. New England Patriots (25.0)

So all we had to do is run 2 plays from the 1 yard line in the amount of time some teams average for entire games... There is just no excuse why we wasted 40 seconds and then proceeded to lose the game with the worst call of all time.

 

[SonicHawk]

It's a 1 yard run play -- it doesn't take long to set up. It's not like your receivers are running down field.

 

[AgentDib]

One thing you do have to consider is that in this sort of situation the other team can intentionally stall quite a bit by making it difficult for your linemen to get up and get back to the side of the ball. The Refs are supposed to get the ball set as quickly as possible, but there have been quite a few teams who "should" have had enough time for one last play that never saw the final snap because time expired. That would have been a really sucky way to lose as well.

I do agree with you that losing 40 seconds after the first down run was a big problem and preventable if they hadn't been out-coached. They were sure that BB was going to call a timeout, and were not at all prepared when instead he did not call a timeout and sent in his goal line run defense. They didn't want to try to change personnel at that point or to spend a timeout, so the pass decision was made mostly to kill the clock so they could sub in for a 3rd and 4th down run attempts. I think it's a crucial point that they could have simply run the ball on second down again if they just sent it in quickly instead of trying to match BB with match-up mind games.

 

[Tokadub]

One thing you do have to consider is that in this sort of situation the other team can intentionally stall quite a bit by making it difficult for your linemen to get up and get back to the side of the ball. The Refs are supposed to get the ball set as quickly as possible, but there have been quite a few teams who "should" have had enough time for one last play that never saw the final snap because time expired.

I do agree with you that losing 40 seconds after the first down run was ill advised. My opinion is that they were sure that BB was going to call a timeout, and were not at all prepared when instead he did not call a timeout and sent in his goal line run defense. They didn't want to try to change personnel at that point or to spend a timeout, so the pass decision was made mostly to kill the clock so they could sub in for a 3rd and 4th down run attempts. I agree with your premise that if they hadn't been caught off guard in the first place they could have easily run the ball on second down.

Once again I'm simply not an expert with this so I will base this post as questions instead of points...

If we had just kept the same personnel grouping after the 1st down play isn't it impossible for the Patriots to even substitute their goal line defense in between these downs?

I keep hearing how against "hurry up offenses" the Seahawks can't substitute defensive players. So if that's true then why in the world did we not have a personnel grouping in on first down that was suitable to run the hurry up rushing offense all the way until calling a timeout on 4th down with just seconds remaining?

Once again this just seems to be a situation that all the "expert analyst" have just completely bungled and I have A LOT of remaining questions. The Coaches had to have known that the chances of Lynch running 4 times in a row from 5 yards out pretty much guaranteed our victory. So why does it seem like we called a timeout on 1st and 5 and ran one smart play and had no clue whatsoever how to finish the game?

It seems to me that they were so paranoid about the Patriots Offense scoring after we did that they had the most epic collective "brainfart" in NFL history. If we had scored a touchdown by running the ball potentially 4 times the Patriots would of had less than a minute and possibly very few seconds remaining to kick a Field Goal to send the game into overtime... did we really think they could score a Touchdown with like 20 seconds remaining?

It just seems like an inexcusable coaching blunder and Bevell should be fired immediately... but because I'm not an expert I'm posting this to try to learn and see if I'm wrong here...

 

[seahawk12thman]

This is bullshit. There were 23 seconds. Run the ball takes 6 seconds, timeout. Go get the next two plays and you have 11 seconds to snap the ball on 4th down. Pete Carroll is lying through his teeth. This was Bevell 's stupidity, end of story!!!!!

 

[Seafan]

We only had three downs from the one. No need to calc for 4. We had plenty of time.

Run on 2nd down and then throw on an option on 3rd down or call a time out. Simple.

Bevell sucks.

 

[joeseahawks]

Like I have said before, a QB Sneak would have forced a clock stoppage and a check/booth review to see if the ball crossed the line or not. This is a no brainers. We didn't need the read option. We didn't need to give it to Lynch. Russell just needed to keep the ball and lean forward. To me, we should have done QB Sneak 3 times in a row, until the ball crossed the line. With Russell, I doubt we lose any yardage on the QB Sneak.
From all the discussions I heard, nobody even mentioned this option. The most unathletic QBs in the league can run it. (Brady has scored on it) .Why can't the most athletic QB in the whole NFL with the surest hands run this in the SB?

 

[hawknation2015]

Like I have said before, a QB Sneak would have forced a clock stoppage and a check/booth review to see if the ball crossed the line or not. This is a no brainers. We didn't need the read option. We didn't need to give it to Lynch. Russell just needed to keep the ball and lean forward. To me, we should have done QB Sneak 3 times in a row, until the ball crossed the line. With Russell, I doubt we lose any yardage on the QB Sneak.
From all the discussions I heard, nobody even mentioned this option. The most unathletic QBs in the league can run it. (Brady has scored on it) .Why can't the most athletic QB in the whole NFL with the surest hands run this in the SB?

Why is that Carroll is more willing to run a sneak with a QB who runs like he's on stilts (see: Bush Push) than with an athlete as impressive as Russell Wilson?

After Marshawn's run, there was over a minute left. Passing the ball on the one-yard line should only be attempted out of necessity. They should have run the ball as quickly as possible on 2nd down. If they don't get it, then either immediately run it again or call a time out if you have to. I say there is an option to call a time out after a 2nd down run only if something highly usual happens (i.e. an usual amount of time runs off the clock because the defense is trying to stall and the referees are doing nothing about it). If something highly unusual does happen, then you simply pass it on 3rd down to stop the clock with an incompletion. Again, a pass here should only be attempted out of necessity. Then you can try to run it in again on the final play.

 

[akscoundrel]

Who says it would have took 4 trys? I'd be willing to bet money lynch would get that yard on two trys max. Especially considering the pats had a lot of trouble stopping kynch for no gain all game.

But like cris collingsworth said, I would rather ride and die with lynch than to fail elsewhere. Give the rock to the beast. If he of all people can't punch it in onnkultiple trys, so be it.

 

[netskier]

He could, but he might be tempted to dive for it, running the risk of head to head contact, with consequent brain damage, which could decrease his ability for the next ten years, which is too much to pay for a single Superbowl.

Listen to Muhammad Ali speak if you have doubts, or look at Junior Seau's brain.

Sneaking and not diving would be good though, but hard to coach against competitive nature.

 

[hawknation2015]

Who says it would have took 4 trys? I'd be willing to bet money lynch would get that yard on two trys max. Especially considering the pats had a lot of trouble stopping kynch for no gain all game.

But like cris collingsworth said, I would rather ride and die with lynch than to fail elsewhere. Give the rock to the beast. If he of all people can't punch it in onnkultiple trys, so be it.

Exactly. Another thing a decent play caller should account for is flow of the game. Marshawn was running the ball with a lot of purpose. There is probably less than a 1/4 chance that New England stops him at the one-yard line. Choosing to throw the ball instead was unconscionable.

 

[themunn]

It's not the time it takes to run the play, it's the time it takes players to get back to the LoS. If you run the ball and Marshawn is at the bottom of a pile, the Patriots players will take as long as possible to get up and off him, if he's not down by contact it's going to be a stop by forward progress (which will likely take a few more seconds), and the time taken for the refs to reset the ball (too long), so in either case you absolutely have to burn a timeout unless the ball goes in the endzone.

 

[hawknation2015]

It's not the time it takes to run the play, it's the time it takes players to get back to the LoS. If you run the ball and Marshawn is at the bottom of a pile, the Patriots players will take as long as possible to get up and off him, if he's not down by contact it's going to be a stop by forward progress (which will likely take a few more seconds), and the time taken for the refs to reset the ball (too long), so in either case you absolutely have to burn a timeout unless the ball goes in the endzone.

Three out of four times Marshawn scores the winning TD on 2nd down.

If it doesn't work and you have to use a time out, so what? That's what the time out is for. Then Bevell can run his pass play on 3rd down if it is necessitated. You don't choose to give up a down by throwing the ball and willingly lower your probably of a touchdown by choice -- you do it out of necessity after you don't run in the TD on 2nd down. Bevell overthought this and it likely cost the team a Super Bowl.

 

[Daytomann]

Screw the media.

 

[MVP53]

I think the last thing you want to do there is operate in a hurry. The Hawks don't run Oregon's tempo and I sure as heck don't want them trying in the final minute of the SB.

2nd & goal from the 1, I think the plan has to be to run twice & throw once. Bevell chose to throw on 2nd, instead of 3rd.

The problem I have is not the fact they ran a pass play, but the specific pass play they ran, and the personnel they chose to run it.

 

[jlwaters1]

This is bullshit. There were 23 seconds. Run the ball takes 6 seconds, timeout. Go get the next two plays and you have 11 seconds to snap the ball on 4th down. Pete Carroll is lying through his teeth. This was Bevell 's stupidity, end of story!!!!!

sorry your entirely wrong. Your scenario makes no sense. Furthermore, telling you his thought process, doesn't mean he's lying. Chances are after a 2nd down run and timeout we have 20-23 seconds left. You would then have to call both your 3rd down and 4th down play at that time, realizing there would be no time to audible or line adjustments.

But then your play is rushes, so who knows what would have happened.

 

[brimsalabim]

We didn't need to run it 4 times so what does that matter? We needed to run it once. Game over.

 

[Uncle Si]

This is bullshit. There were 23 seconds. Run the ball takes 6 seconds, timeout. Go get the next two plays and you have 11 seconds to snap the ball on 4th down. Pete Carroll is lying through his teeth. This was Bevell 's stupidity, end of story!!!!!

sorry your entirely wrong. Your scenario makes no sense. Furthermore, telling you his thought process, doesn't mean he's lying. Chances are after a 2nd down run and timeout we have 20-23 seconds left. You would then have to call both your 3rd down and 4th down play at that time, realizing there would be no time to audible or line adjustments.

But then your play is rushes, so who knows what would have happened.

agree here... he wanted the TD or the huddle after the incompletion

 

[brimsalabim]

Well he chose poorly.

 

[hawknation2015]

Patriots were "shocked" that we threw the ball

"As I look back at it, yeah, I was very shocked and surprised that they threw the ball," Patriots cornerback Darrelle Revis said Sunday night after New England defeated Seattle in a thrilling Super Bowl XLIX.

"I don't know man," Brady said on NFL Network's Super Bowl XLIX edition of NFL GameDay Final. "I'm glad they didn't (hand the ball to Lynch). Love the choice they made. You kidding me? I love that choice."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... as-shocked