Do You Trust John Schneider?

[SoulfishHawk]

Still don't know how John is supposed to magically predict the future. Fluke injures are not something that be predicted by ANYONE.

 

[Jimjones0384]

The Hawks are just finishing off their hangover from trying to make one last run with the old crew and the Malik fallout. Lost too much draft capital in that time.

Draft capital? The only significant draft capital we're missing right now - our 2nd-round pick - was spent on Duane Brown. There's not a single person on this board, except myself, who was even slightly opposed to that trade. "Whatever it takes, fix the O-line!" said everyone and their mother. All rules of frugality seem to go out the window when the OL is concerned.

The sixth rounder wasted on Brett Hundley kinda hurt, but not as much as that.

I really dont see what the big deal about giving a sixth round pick for Huntley. It is a pick that will easily be replaced...... Easily. Why doesn't he get credit for spending seventh round picks on Carson, Coleman and Moore? How about Poona as an UDFA? All of those four were very recent picks, last two years? Poona was an elite run stuffer, and will be good at rushing the passer moving forward. In limited snaps, he was more highly rated than Sheldon Richardson. Does that not make up for the fricking McDowell pick? Yes, they have made mistakes, but show me someone at 100 percent success rate. Year in, year out, same crap. It's been a while since I noticed a superbowl loss thread, let's see if we can bring that back up. Get over this McDowell crap, move on. We are lucky to have the team and management we do. Most organizations would have turned into the Browns over the past few seasons, especially with Paul passing on. But we dont have to worry about it, this management is in place.

It's time for this base to move forward, and leave all these constant negative people behind. This team has a bright future, and my focus is on that. It will not be on a superbowl that was lost years ago, or a second round pick that was irresponsible.

 

[Tical21]

Not really. He's made a ton of decisions that alone would've gotten a GM without Super Bowl equity fired.

McDowell
Paying Kam
Jimmy
Percy
Sheldon - ouch!!
Joeckel
Lacy
Our O-line play for 3 years
Not extending Clark last offseason

Let's break this one down one by one.

Kam and McDowell were fluke injuries. You can't judge a GM on a career-ending injury.

Percy and Lacy. I can't really defend those moves.

Jimmy Graham was an effective weapon. You can't blame a GM for playcalling.

Joeckel and Oline. That is on Pete for not firing Tom Cable.

Extending Clark? Hell, I don't know if they should extend him today. They had no clue what Frank Clark would play like with no pass rush help. Also, there is no way to know if Clark would even have accepted an extension after 2017 knowing he would be the only proven pass rusher on the team.

Allow me to retort.

Kam was a fluke injury. But fully guaranteeing a 3rd contract against injury to a physical psycho had never happened previously, and will never happen again, for a reason. Just dumb.

McDowell - when a guy with character concerns does something stupid, that's on the GM. I'm sorry.

Jimmy Graham was the worst move of the entire bunch. Of every single player in the NFL that year, none would have been a worse style or culture fit. We instantly went from the toughest team on the block to soft, trying to force feed a guy a ball to feed his ego. How are you going to be a physical running team with the worst blocking TE in the league?

As far as Clark, that's where a GM needs to earn his keep. He needs to be able to predict the future, at least a bit. Schneider figured at worst, Clark would have 11 or 12 sacks and his price would go up to 15 Mil. Oops!! If Schneider had the foresight to offer 13-15 LAST year, before we were all sure he deserved it, he'd be a Seahawk for a long time. Now, I'm not sure we can reasonably sign him barring a major injury. It's a miscalculation by the GM. I can't guarantee Frank would've signed up for that money, but man, he'd be one of the first in the history of the league to turn down that kind of payday off a first contract.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

If you're gonna' list all the bad stuff (in your eyes) why ignore the MANY good decisions this front office has made.
They didn't get to the Super Bowl in back to back years, and numerous playoff seasons w/out making a lot of very good choices. Or, let me guess, they just got lucky on Russ, Kam, Sherm, Bobby, KJ, Doug, Clark, Reed, Lockett, Dickson, etc.

 

[Tical21]

If you're gonna' list all the bad stuff (in your eyes) why ignore the MANY good decisions this front office has made.
They didn't get to the Super Bowl in back to back years, and numerous playoff seasons w/out making a lot of very good choices.

Bruh, it's 2019 now. Those Sherman, Kam, Russ, Marshawn choices were like 7-9 years ago, and they haven't hit anything in free agency, and little in trades since, and outside of Lockett, Reed and Clark, have they drafted ANY other plus players since like 2012?

Schneider gets a lot of equity because of all that success, but over the past 6-7 years, the weight of bad decisions is far heavier than the weight of good decisions, and had he not won those Super Bowls, if this was a vacuum, he would've been fired several times over.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Fair enough, we get it, you don't like the Front Office and/or trust them. It's ok to disagree, it happens.
There are plenty of guys who are contributing and/or will in the future from recent drafts.

 

[mrt144]

Fair enough, we get it, you don't like the Front Office and/or trust them. It's ok to disagree, it happens.
There are plenty of guys who are contributing and/or will in the future from recent drafts.

What does Tical actually like about the Hawks besides...the name? The geographic proximity of the team to himself? I'm drawing blanks.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Bruh, it's 2019 now. Those Sherman, Kam, Russ, Marshawn choices were like 7-9 years ago, and they haven't hit anything in free agency, and little in trades since, and outside of Lockett, Reed and Clark, have they drafted ANY other plus players since like 2012? .

Griffin
Britt
Reed
Ifedi
Flowers
Thompson
Carson
Dickson
Penny

All starters and contributors, and a couple pro bowlers.

If you're expecting the insane hit rate on draft picks like Pete and John had in their first three years in the league, then you will be wildly disappointed for the rest of their tenure.

Pete had that 2-3 year head start on he rest of the league because of his college scouts and data, and was able to mine all that mid to late round gold when he first got here.

That competitive edge/head start has been gone for a while, and now we're back down to earth with the rest of the unwashed masses. That doesn't mean Pete and John's overall philosophy can't be trusted anymore.

They still have a very successful foundation philosophy of drafting and acquiring players that love the game, have key attributes like grit, toughness and come from adversity.

So yes I trust John, and I trust Pete.....because they both have a history of success that can't be denied, and are already building another great defense. It'll just take longer this time because their college scouting advantage is gone.....but that doesn't mean their core philosophies don't work, they do.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

There are a lot more good decisions than bad. EVERY team, even the precious Patriots make mistakes.
Very few teams have done a better job overall than the Hawks have since Pete and John got here. Especially in the later rounds and undrafted side of things. I'm not going to ignore the incredible decisions they made that directly resulted in being one play from back to back titles. Let alone playoff runs over and over again under Pete and John.
So they missed on some, big deal. ALL teams miss. Believe it or not.
I just don't understand all the complaints about the last couple drafts, when they have hit on a lot of guys who are contributing and/or will be in the future. Largent listed a bunch of guys who were clearly good draft picks.
Shoot, some were giving up on Penny already, and forgetting that we still have Jones who could turn out to be a solid O Lineman. Dis was a great pick and you can immediately see that he's a baller. Dickson is $, Flowers was a real solid player, especially for a guy who was a Safety in College. Reed and Carson are beasts, and Naz Jones could still pan out to be a very good contributor. Tedric Thompson is solid, and the trades for Coleman and Mcdougald were AMAZING.
Jacob Martin was a contributor as a 6th rounder, Rasheem Green is likely to be a damn good player.
They got Fluker and Sweezy for around 1.5 mil each and they were HUGE contributors to the best running game in football. Huge return on a minimal investment.
They kept KJ and Fluker, signed a pro-bowl kicker and added another vet O-Lineman. And signed Kendricks back. In what world is this front office doing a bad job?? :roll:
And on a side note, they FINALLY got rid of Cabevell and added Solari. Completely different team last year.

 

[Tical21]

Bruh, it's 2019 now. Those Sherman, Kam, Russ, Marshawn choices were like 7-9 years ago, and they haven't hit anything in free agency, and little in trades since, and outside of Lockett, Reed and Clark, have they drafted ANY other plus players since like 2012? .

Griffin
Britt
Reed
Ifedi
Flowers
Thompson
Carson
Dickson
Penny

All starters and contributors, and a couple pro bowlers.

If you're expecting the insane hit rate on draft picks like Pete and John had in their first three years in the league, then you will be wildly disappointed for the rest of their tenure.

Pete had that 2-3 year head start on he rest of the league because of his college scouts and data, and was able to mine all that mid to late round gold when he first got here.

That competitive edge/head start has been gone for a while, and now we're back down to earth with the rest of the unwashed masses. That doesn't mean Pete and John's overall philosophy can't be trusted anymore.

They still have a very successful foundation philosophy of drafting and acquiring players that love the game, have key attributes like grit, toughness and come from adversity.

So yes I trust John, and I trust Pete.....because they both have a history of success that can't be denied, and are already building another great defense. It'll just take longer this time because their college scouting advantage is gone.....but that doesn't mean their core philosophies don't work, they do.

I should have given credit for Carson. I did list Reed. I'm hopeful about Flowers. Griffin, Ifedi and Britt, I'm not sure any of the above aren't replacement level players. Somebody on the roster needs to go out there and start, and I'm not going to credit a GM for fielding 22 starters.

When they didn't draft well enough to continue plugging holes, you saw them do things like backload a contract for Britt, guarantee contracts for Baldwin and Russ, trade future draft capital to try to fill holes they couldn't fill through the draft, all the toxic stuff that happens as tell-tale signs that things are running inefficiently. Those are bad, bad stuffs. Things those awful Cowboys and Raiders front offices of the 90's, or the Saints were doing when they ended up in cap hell.

Now, going forward, they need to be patient enough to hold their water in this draft and not trade future picks because they see some shiny object they want. You'll know how things are going by these signs. If you see us trade a 3 and 4 next year for a 3 this year, run.

 

[Tical21]

Fair enough, we get it, you don't like the Front Office and/or trust them. It's ok to disagree, it happens.
There are plenty of guys who are contributing and/or will in the future from recent drafts.

What does Tical actually like about the Hawks besides...the name? The geographic proximity of the team to himself? I'm drawing blanks.

Carson is great, love Frank and Reed. Flowers looks really promising. I like our LBs a ton, although we need to find some young talent there somehow. Russ is great. I'm optimistic about Dissly. I'm hopeful Jones can be a good guard. I dunno what you want me to say, there just isn't a ton of plus young talent on the squad.

ETA: I love that we're a punch you in the mouth rushing team again that don't take no junk.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Go Hawks

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Now, going forward, they need to be patient enough to hold their water in this draft and not trade future picks because they see some shiny object they want. You'll know how things are going by these signs. If you see us trade a 3 and 4 next year for a 3 this year, run.

This was a product of a false sense of security with a core group of players that were on the downside of their prime, and Pete and John desperately trying to contend for another SB. So they went for broke, and lost.

IMO they've learned their lesson and now know they have to get back to getting young and nasty, and not rely on old and experienced, and expect players to buy in.

I honestly don't know how people don't trust John and Pete. They just took a 7-9 roster, and went 10-6. Why would you not think they can continue to build another great defense and tough nasty efficient offense..........when that's all they've ever done since they've been in the league.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Sure they may have been guilty of too much loyalty to certain guys. But these were not average players, these were VERY good and often borderline HOF possibilities. They took a shot and fluke injures caught up to these guys.
I imagine MOST teams would have given extensions to Kam, Cliff, Sherm etc. Yet, when the Pats do it they are treated like geniuses. I get that they do have a knack for letting guys go at the right time, but to fault this FO for keeping top notch players is silly.

 

[Tical21]

Now, going forward, they need to be patient enough to hold their water in this draft and not trade future picks because they see some shiny object they want. You'll know how things are going by these signs. If you see us trade a 3 and 4 next year for a 3 this year, run.

This was a product of a false sense of security with a core group of players that were on the downside of their prime, and Pete and John desperately trying to contend for another SB. So they went for broke, and lost.

IMO they've learned their lesson and now know they have to get back to getting young and nasty, and not rely on old and experienced, and expect players to buy in.

I honestly don't know how people don't trust John and Pete. They just took a 7-9 roster, and went 10-6. Why would you not think they can continue to build another great defense and tough nasty efficient offense..........when that's all they've ever done since they've been in the league.

Semantics, but I'm quite certain it was a product of little more than desperation.

I trust Pete wholeheartedly. I don't think John has much ability to judge talent or fit. The moves I've listed above are BIG deals. Not like missing on a 5th round pick. The drafting the past two seasons leaves some room for optimism, and I'm pretty on-board with the offseason thus far, but it is fairly easy to argue that no GM has drafted worse over the past 5 seasons or done worse in FA or trades.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

You can't be serious

 

[Tical21]

You can't be serious

Look at other good teams, look at their impact players, see how they got them.

Look at our trades.

Look at our drafts. The numbers over the past year or two have gotten better, but there is zero doubt that they got less from the previous 4 drafts than ANY other team did. You could look at the data bunch of different ways...starts, pro bowls, all pros, stats, whatever. We were dead last. Look at the drafts. Go over them. Then look at the drafts and some other teams. Go over them. Are you going to blindly say "I love our GM and he is the best because he got us Russell and he won a Super Bowl", or are you capable of critically thinking and looking at data and using it as evidence to form your opinion?

 

[sdog1981]

You can't be serious

Look at other good teams, look at their impact players, see how they got them.

Look at our trades.

Look at our drafts. The numbers over the past year or two have gotten better, but there is zero doubt that they got less from the previous 4 drafts than ANY other team did. You could look at the data bunch of different ways...starts, pro bowls, all pros, stats, whatever. We were dead last. Look at the drafts. Go over them. Then look at the drafts and some other teams. Go over them. Are you going to blindly say "I love our GM and he is the best because he got us Russell and he won a Super Bowl", or are you capable of critically thinking and looking at data and using it as evidence to form your opinion?

Now you are just posting outright lies.

Kam's deal was 36 million with 13 million guaranteed.

Less from the last 4 drafts? Have you looked at the 49ers drafts? 2016 They had 11 picks and only three of them are still on the team.

The lowest win total over the last 4 years is 9 wins, your team cannot do that without adding talent every year.

 

[Tical21]

You can't be serious

Look at other good teams, look at their impact players, see how they got them.

Look at our trades.

Look at our drafts. The numbers over the past year or two have gotten better, but there is zero doubt that they got less from the previous 4 drafts than ANY other team did. You could look at the data bunch of different ways...starts, pro bowls, all pros, stats, whatever. We were dead last. Look at the drafts. Go over them. Then look at the drafts and some other teams. Go over them. Are you going to blindly say "I love our GM and he is the best because he got us Russell and he won a Super Bowl", or are you capable of critically thinking and looking at data and using it as evidence to form your opinion?

Now you are just posting outright lies.

Kam's deal was 36 million with 13 million guaranteed.

Less from the last 4 drafts? Have you looked at the 49ers drafts? 2016 They had 11 picks and only three of them are still on the team.

The lowest win total over the last 4 years is 9 wins, your team cannot do that without adding talent every year.

Kam got 13 at signing in 2017 and has has earned what, 14 more over 2018 and 19? 27 > 13.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

This is rich, thx for the laugh Tical :irishdrinkers: