Fire Hurtt or Carroll

[Jerhawk]

Who said this?

Before the season the only bright spot on the entire defensive side of the ball was Taylor and Brooks taking the next step.

That's it, the rest of the defense was suppose to be just as bad as the offense. No corners, aging safeties and the most mediocre D-line in franchise history.

Some of you guys try so hard to exaggerate to fit your narratives. The Hawk's over under in Vegas was 4-5 games, that doesn't in any way shape or fashion say "many people thought our defense was going to be good."

No, no one did, except Pete and the players.

I'm not trying to exaggerate a narrative. And I don't have sources to back that up. It was posters on .Net, many on here were saying the defense should be good this year.

 

[Jerhawk]

I'm honestly just spit balling here.

It's my suspicion that Carroll has been meddling more in the gameplan just based on past tendencies, but I'm more than likely way off the mark here. You guys make a lot more sense about all this than I do!

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm not trying to exaggerate a narrative. And I don't have sources to back that up. It was posters on .Net, many on here were saying the defense should be good this year.

No one said this, and if they did they were in the VAST minority.

Again, you're trying to create a strawman in order to justify your opinion that Hurtt needs to go.

Just like every year after bad losses when posters come out of the woodwork and demand <insert every coach ever> needs to be fired.

Like that'd matter with the lack of talent on the defensive side of the ball right now.

Above average players
Woolen
Brooks
Nwousu

Average players
Harris
Woods
Diggs
Neal

Below Average Players
Bryant
Barton
Jackson
Taylor
Ford

And btw, I'm being kind to some of the average players like Harris, Woods and Diggs, who for 50% of their snaps have played below average.

So sure, fire Hurtt and hire whoever you want, they're not getting anymore production out of this VERY mediocre defensive roster. ALL the draft picks next year need to be used on defense. Except maybe center, cause Blythe has regressed dramatically since the beginning of the year, he's being abused right now.

 

[Jerhawk]

No one said this, and if they did they were in the VAST minority.

Again, you're trying to create a strawman in order to justify your opinion that Hurtt needs to go.

Just like every year after bad losses when posters come out of the woodwork and demand <insert every coach ever> needs to be fired.

Like that'd matter with the lack of talent on the defensive side of the ball right now.

Above average players
Woolen
Brooks
Nwousu

Average players
Harris
Woods
Diggs
Neal

Below Average Players
Bryant
Barton
Jackson
Taylor
Ford

And btw, I'm being kind to some of the average players like Harris, Woods and Diggs, who for 50% of their snaps have played below average.

So sure, fire Hurtt and hire whoever you want, they're not getting anymore production out of this VERY mediocre defensive roster. ALL the draft picks next year need to be used on defense. Except maybe center, cause Blythe has regressed dramatically since the beginning of the year, he's being abused right now.

You're right Sgt Largent. I apologize.

It was an emotional post that I put here right after the game, and I clearly shouldn't have.

Thank you for your time

 

[Hawkinaz]

No one said this, and if they did they were in the VAST minority.

Again, you're trying to create a strawman in order to justify your opinion that Hurtt needs to go.

Just like every year after bad losses when posters come out of the woodwork and demand <insert every coach ever> needs to be fired.

Like that'd matter with the lack of talent on the defensive side of the ball right now.

Above average players
Woolen
Brooks
Nwousu

Average players
Harris
Woods
Diggs
Neal

Below Average Players
Bryant
Barton
Jackson
Taylor
Ford

And btw, I'm being kind to some of the average players like Harris, Woods and Diggs, who for 50% of their snaps have played below average.

So sure, fire Hurtt and hire whoever you want, they're not getting anymore production out of this VERY mediocre defensive roster. ALL the draft picks next year need to be used on defense. Except maybe center, cause Blythe has regressed dramatically since the beginning of the year, he's being abused right now.

Agree with you about the talent level a coach can only do so much. If Hurtt was coaching a stacked defense such as the 9ers it would have a much different outcome. I have confidence the defense will be much improved after another off season

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Agree with you about the talent level a coach can only do so much. If Hurtt was coaching a stacked defense such as the 9ers it would have a much different outcome. I have confidence the defense will be much improved after another off season

Now we're making a little sense.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for defensive drafts? Sure, I'm all ears cause they've had some terrible drafts on the defensive side of the ball.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for making the worst trade in franchise history with the Adams debacle? Again, I'm all ears.

Those arguments have merit.

Wanting coordinators fired who have garbage to work with isn't a conversation I have a lot of patience with.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Now we're making a little sense.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for defensive drafts? Sure, I'm all ears cause they've had some terrible drafts on the defensive side of the ball.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for making the worst trade in franchise history with the Adams debacle? Again, I'm all ears.

Those arguments have merit.

Wanting coordinators fired who have garbage to work with isn't a conversation I have a lot of patience with.

Which begs the question, on what merit was Hurtt hired in the first place? Our D-Line has struggled for a long time, he wasn't exactly doing great coaching the D-Line. As a coordinator he hasn't looked very good.

The subpar coordinator thing isn't exactly new for Pete Carroll either. He's made quite a few hiring mistakes throughout his tenure here.

 

[Jerhawk]

Now we're making a little sense.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for defensive drafts? Sure, I'm all ears cause they've had some terrible drafts on the defensive side of the ball.

If fans want to blame Pete and John for making the worst trade in franchise history with the Adams debacle? Again, I'm all ears.

Those arguments have merit.

Wanting coordinators fired who have garbage to work with isn't a conversation I have a lot of patience with.

It's ok to have differing viewpoints without being a total condescending jerk about it too.

Something i have little patience with.

We're cheering for the same team here. Show a little respect for your fellow man

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It's ok to have differing viewpoints without being a total condescending jerk about it too.

Something i have little patience with.

We're cheering for the same team here. Show a little respect for your fellow man

What did I say that you think was condescending? Exaggerating your point? Strawman?

Aren't those words accurate. I didn't call you names.

If you think Hurtt should be fired, please give me some sound reasoning, because what you typed makes no sense. He's coaching Pete's schemes, he has very little input into wholesale scheme changes, just as every other D-coordinator did while here.

 

[RiverDog]

I think it's the opposite. PC is taking a hands-off approach this year, and his intervention has been minimal.

If there was some way to know for sure, I would bet that Hurtt/Desai are pushing 2-gap when our DL players are not capable of playing it effectively.

We used it weeks 1-5 and sucked. For some reason (PC "suggesting" a change?) we went to 1-gap weeks 6-9 and kicked ass.

Week 10 we went back to 2-gap and are sucking again. Not sure about week 12 but I know 1-5 plus 10 were 2-gapping and it appears 12 was also. Maybe after week 9 H/D convinced PC to let them go back to 2-gap since they now had it "figured out"?

Maybe PC should be inserting himself MORE into the defensive gameplanning?

As far as it relates to the OP, it doesn't matter if Pete's taking a hands off approach and might do better if he were more engaged. We're at the bottom of an 8 year slide into mediocrity that has been accelerated by events far beyond the control of our current DC. Pete's the one that has to accept the responsibility and suffer the consequences if a change is deemed necessary.

 

[Jerhawk]

What did I say that you think was condescending? Exaggerating your point? Strawman?

Aren't those words accurate. I didn't call you names.

If you think Hurtt should be fired, please give me some sound reasoning, because what you typed makes no sense. He's coaching Pete's schemes, he has very little input into wholesale scheme changes, just as every other D-coordinator did while here.

Unless you work for the team, stop pretending that your opinions have more merit than mine. I've stated many times these are just my opinions.

My reasons for wanting Hurtt fired: He's yet another yes man for Carroll. He was an internal hire who was only hired because he's a yes man. He's a puppet for Pete.

Ed Donatell was originally hired onto the staff for some defensive roll, then quickly left for Minnesota. Remember that? Why wasn't he hired as D coordinator here? My suspicion is that his philosophy didn't gel with Pete. Again, who knows why. Maybe he took one look at the roster and said "yikes no thanks" then took the better offer at Minnesota.

To answer your question: What's my beef with Hurtt?
Specifically, as soon as he was hired, he was giving his press conference, and also on Mike Salk, and he threw Ken Norton under the bus. He was going on and on about not dropping d lineman into coverage, they're going to be more aggressive, etc. Which sounded great! But to throw shade like that at the person you're replacing reeks of brown nosing and is a major red flag as a weak leader. You just don't do that.

If I'm a player and my new boss is bad mouthing my old boss out the door, that's giving the wrong impression of them as a leader. So ever since he did that, I have not liked or respected him as a coach or a leader to these young guys.

Also, Clintt Hurtt was accused of many wrongdoings while with the University of Miami. This stinks of questionable character and morales. Qualities important in a leader. Article: https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article1947665.html

Going forward Sgt Largent, acknowledge my original post was dumb. But there is a respectful way to debate and talk football on here. I took exception with the way you were disagreeing with me. If you don't feel that you did, then we can agree to disagree about that and move on.

 

[cymatica]

Unless you work for the team, stop pretending that your opinions have more merit than mine. I've stated many times these are just my opinions.

My reasons for wanting Hurtt fired: He's yet another yes man for Carroll. He was an internal hire who was only hired because he's a yes man. He's a puppet for Pete.

Ed Donatell was originally hired onto the staff for some defensive roll, then quickly left for Minnesota. Remember that? Why wasn't he hired as D coordinator here? My suspicion is that his philosophy didn't gel with Pete. Again, who knows why. Maybe he took one look at the roster and said "yikes no thanks" then took the better offer at Minnesota.

To answer your question: What's my beef with Hurtt?
Specifically, as soon as he was hired, he was giving his press conference, and also on Mike Salk, and he threw Ken Norton under the bus. He was going on and on about not dropping d lineman into coverage, they're going to be more aggressive, etc. Which sounded great! But to throw shade like that at the person you're replacing reeks of brown nosing and is a major red flag as a weak leader. You just don't do that.

If I'm a player and my new boss is bad mouthing my old boss out the door, that's giving the wrong impression of them as a leader. So ever since he did that, I have not liked or respected him as a coach or a leader to these young guys.

Also, Clintt Hurtt was accused of many wrongdoings while with the University of Miami. This stinks of questionable character and morales. Qualities important in a leader. Article: https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article1947665.html

Going forward Sgt Largent, acknowledge my original post was dumb. But there is a respectful way to debate and talk football on here. I took exception with the way you were disagreeing with me. If you don't feel that you did, then we can agree to disagree about that and move on.

That article has a paywall

 

[jammerhawk]

I'm honestly just spit balling here.

It's my suspicion that Carroll has been meddling more in the gameplan just based on past tendencies, but I'm more than likely way off the mark here. You guys make a lot more sense about all this than I do!

Do you have any evidence to support your negative viewpoint that the problem with the D is b/c Coach Carrol has been meddling in their gameplan? If not is it b/c that is just what you'd prefer to believe? If you have zero evidence then frankly your suspicion is merely just another negative theory. You did admit you were just spitballing but is it spitballing without any evidentiary basis.

Coach Carroll did meddle in the structure of the D after the loss to the Saints, but it seems Coach Hurtt has reverted to earlier form. Back to the drawing board to fix the run D.

 

[Jerhawk]

That article has a paywall

Weird it didn't for me. Here's a another one.

NCAA lists allegations against Louisville's Clint Hurtt

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Louisville's Clint Hurtt faces allegations of receiving and providing impermissible benefits while an assistant at Miami. The NCAA says

www.si.com

 

[Jerhawk]

Do you have any evidence to support your negative viewpoint that the problem with the D is b/c Coach Carrol has been meddling in their gameplan? If not is it b/c that is just what you'd prefer to believe? If you have zero evidence then frankly your suspicion is merely just another negative theory. You did admit you were just spitballing but it it is spitballing without any evidentiary basis.

Coach Carroll did meddle in the structure of the D after the loss to the Saints, but it seems Coach Hurtt has reverted to earlier form. Back to the drawing board to fix the run D.

No, I do not have evidence to support my claim

 

[Hawkinaz]

Weird it didn't for me. Here's a another one.

NCAA lists allegations against Louisville's Clint Hurtt

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Louisville's Clint Hurtt faces allegations of receiving and providing impermissible benefits while an assistant at Miami. The NCAA says

www.si.com

I am never phased by coaches/alumni giving players money it is a common practice. When I was in college I had a so called job it was called a groundskeeper the money came from the alumni but the school was the middleman this was back in the 80s when things were done on the down low. I heard a recent story about some coach who was giving money to needy players with one of the players moms needing a procedure done and he would give the player cash in a Chick-filet bag on more than 1 occasion

 

[IndyHawk]

The reason I added Pete in there is because whenever I say fire X D coordinator (Richard, Norton, Hurtt) ultimately Pete is the one pulling the strings, or so I am told by other posters

I would really like to see Seattle bring in a defensive mind that will challenge Pete's philosophy, because whatever is going on now clearly isn't working. They looked solid against Kyler Murray and Daniel Jones this year which isn't saying much.

I thought Desai was supposed to be the genius to be innovative and creative with the D. Where is he at? If Carroll is squashing his voice and not allowing other ideas to be presented on D, then that's a problem

I think Pete has to meddle in this case because Hurtt is worse than Norton.
The D is where Pete thrives but I don't think he has been involved like some
believe but rather backing off and letting them do their job.
Desai needs to run it not Hurtt and Pete can make that happen.
I fear however we just don't have what we need upfront yet.The draft and FA
will be keys to fixing that.
We have quite a few guys who won't be here next year..Barton for one

 

[Maelstrom787]

There's going to have to be a lot of personnel change on the lines for this entirely different methodology of line play to work, me thinks. Our current dudes just largely don't seem to get it, and it's the way Fangio and Desai coach ball. Hurtt too, I'm sure, prefers it considering his background.

Pete seems committed to change, otherwise he'd simply take his defense back and run his ish. I don't think he wants to do that. He wouldn't have brought in so much outside influence from another tree if he didn't want to move toward it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

2 weeks ago: This team is playoff bound!!!
now: This team sucks, fire everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[GemCity]

The Defense is obviously a product of most of the factors listed in this thread.

I think it’s worth restating that you truly need a strong front to run a 3-4 effectively against the run. If you don’t have that, your LBs better be amazing

I think we’re hurting at both of those position groups.

If we don’t fix it this season, which could prove challenging, I expect the FO to fire on all cylinders in this next draft.

Bypass the shiny new toys (Eskridge types) and continue to build this thing inside-out. There are O-line spots to consider but we need to hit up Defense hard in the ‘23 draft.